Williams F1 - why haven't they won a race for seven years?
Discussion
Unbelievable and sad that the team that went to glory with Senna, Mansell and Damon Hill should find itself in the F1 wilderness, so to speak.
What went / is going wrong?
Good to see a Williams fighting it out with the big boys today, but a scrabble over 6/7 place should not be what this team is about.
What went / is going wrong?
Good to see a Williams fighting it out with the big boys today, but a scrabble over 6/7 place should not be what this team is about.
In short: BMW.
Williams jumped on the big manufacturer engine supplier bandwagon with BMW (as McLaren with Merc, Bennetton with Renault) and then refused to let BMW take over and run things. BMW ditched them, bought Sauber and then proceeded to demonstrate exactly why Williams wouldn't let them take over.
In long;
Williams are a fastidiously independent team which is unfortunately an outdated setup for the hugely corporate world of modern F1. Money talks in F1 and Williams don't have enough as they refuse to sell out either to a large sponsor (ie. Red Bull) or to a large manufacturer (ie. BMW explanation above).
The money shortage also has a tendency to influence drivers. In order to get the Toyota customer engines, Williams had to run Nakajima (Just like the end of their Honda deal in the 80's when they had to run Nakajima snr.), who was at best upper midfield. Too many years were wasted with a poor driver mated to a young up-and-coming Rosberg, who is now finding his feet at the sharp end after switching to Mercedes/Money.
Unfortunately I can't see things significantly improving for them, although this seasons driver pairing are at least getting the most out of the package.
Williams jumped on the big manufacturer engine supplier bandwagon with BMW (as McLaren with Merc, Bennetton with Renault) and then refused to let BMW take over and run things. BMW ditched them, bought Sauber and then proceeded to demonstrate exactly why Williams wouldn't let them take over.
In long;
Williams are a fastidiously independent team which is unfortunately an outdated setup for the hugely corporate world of modern F1. Money talks in F1 and Williams don't have enough as they refuse to sell out either to a large sponsor (ie. Red Bull) or to a large manufacturer (ie. BMW explanation above).
The money shortage also has a tendency to influence drivers. In order to get the Toyota customer engines, Williams had to run Nakajima (Just like the end of their Honda deal in the 80's when they had to run Nakajima snr.), who was at best upper midfield. Too many years were wasted with a poor driver mated to a young up-and-coming Rosberg, who is now finding his feet at the sharp end after switching to Mercedes/Money.
Unfortunately I can't see things significantly improving for them, although this seasons driver pairing are at least getting the most out of the package.
As above, lots of politics but ultimately the fact is that most of the people that made the Williams successful left them and went to other teams. A clamp down on the engineering which Williams pioneered also stopped them from developing naturally whereas now they seem to have an idea and take a step back to conform to the regulations.
Frank is getting old and isnt well.
Frank has always run the team along the same manner as Enzo and Ron. Head ran the the Engineering, Frank ran the team. Patrick is getting older, but ultimately the driving soul of the team now simply isnt pushing the lifeblood through it as it used to happen.
Frank has always run the team along the same manner as Enzo and Ron. Head ran the the Engineering, Frank ran the team. Patrick is getting older, but ultimately the driving soul of the team now simply isnt pushing the lifeblood through it as it used to happen.
Ayahuasca said:
...that the team that went to glory with Senna...
? Senna would, IMO, have gone on to do much good with the team had he lived. But sadly that wasn't to be.Williams are effectively a privateer team. As mentioned above, money talks in F1, and they don't have much (or rather, as much as an awful lot of other teams). Also, they were innovators, which seems to be being drummed out of the sport. A neat, trick part, gets invented and is often banned shortly after. Teams on low budgets need to be allowed ingenuity IMO as money counts for little in these stakes...
Couple of other things
- Williams' last win was 2004 (6yrs ago)
- Since then, just 7 teams have won GPs. And 2 of those have only one 1 (BMW and Torro Rosso), so safe to assume they were more "fluke" than anything.
Murph7355 said:
Ayahuasca said:
...that the team that went to glory with Senna...
? Senna would, IMO, have gone on to do much good with the team had he lived. But sadly that wasn't to be.Williams are effectively a privateer team. As mentioned above, money talks in F1, and they don't have much (or rather, as much as an awful lot of other teams). Also, they were innovators, which seems to be being drummed out of the sport. A neat, trick part, gets invented and is often banned shortly after. Teams on low budgets need to be allowed ingenuity IMO as money counts for little in these stakes...
Couple of other things
- Williams' last win was 2004 (6yrs ago)
- Since then, just 7 teams have won GPs. And 2 of those have only one 1 (BMW and Torro Rosso), so safe to assume they were more "fluke" than anything.
Also, when you look back on it, every time they have been successful, they've had the best powerplants in the pitlane at the time. The Honda engine powered Piquet to the world title and then Ron offered Honda a great deal (along with Senna, who they already respected from Lotus AND Prost giving feedback) so they lost the deal.
They got Renault on board early and did all of the development work with them for a couple of season before that was THE engine to have and they dominated for a few years. Schumacher most likely wouldn't have won in 94 or 95 with the older Ford V10, would he? He had the same motor as Senna/Hill, by then Williams had lost their engine advantage and the trick stuff (Active suspension, Traction control) that they'd been at the cutting edge of the rest of the teams had caught up or they'd been banned.
To be fair, the BMW engine was regarded as being the most powerful in F1 for a few years, it was just, ahem, fragile...
If you look at Williams history though and you were a manufacturer wanting to come into the sport and be successful, you'd only look at either Williams or Mclaren as a chassis partner choice, surely? Even with the last few years results, they've made some of the better funded teams look very ordinary on occasion. They're the sort of team that when regs change you'd never bet against them to come out with something quite trick to put the rest of the grid back in their box!
They got Renault on board early and did all of the development work with them for a couple of season before that was THE engine to have and they dominated for a few years. Schumacher most likely wouldn't have won in 94 or 95 with the older Ford V10, would he? He had the same motor as Senna/Hill, by then Williams had lost their engine advantage and the trick stuff (Active suspension, Traction control) that they'd been at the cutting edge of the rest of the teams had caught up or they'd been banned.
To be fair, the BMW engine was regarded as being the most powerful in F1 for a few years, it was just, ahem, fragile...
If you look at Williams history though and you were a manufacturer wanting to come into the sport and be successful, you'd only look at either Williams or Mclaren as a chassis partner choice, surely? Even with the last few years results, they've made some of the better funded teams look very ordinary on occasion. They're the sort of team that when regs change you'd never bet against them to come out with something quite trick to put the rest of the grid back in their box!
Racefan_uk said:
They're the sort of team that when regs change you'd never bet against them to come out with something quite trick to put the rest of the grid back in their box!
They were one of the teams that had the twin diffuser last year, and IIRC Rosberg was very quick at the start of the year, in qualifying anyway, only to spectacularly underperform in the races.Their next big idea is the flywheel KERS, next year will see whether that gamble will pay off.
A cynic might suggest that the vultures that are circling don't want too much success until they have managed to bag the team for a bargain price, a la Honda/Brawn, only to then sell out for a massive personal profit once the old school management are out of the way.
456lbft said:
...Their next big idea is the flywheel KERS, next year will see whether that gamble will pay off.
It won't - with the larger fuel tanks there isn't the packaging space apparently. http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/01464
PhillT said:
I asked Sir Frank this when I met him last year. He basically said a lack of two things - money and Adrian Newey.
That's startlingly honest, and true in my opinion.I also agree with the suggestion that they kept letting the best drivers go. Mansell, Prost and Hill all left the team after their championship winning year because Williams had his eye on The Next Big Thing. Usually he was right but in Hill's case the NBT was Frentzen...
Alfa numeric said:
PhillT said:
I asked Sir Frank this when I met him last year. He basically said a lack of two things - money and Adrian Newey.
That's startlingly honest, and true in my opinion.I also agree with the suggestion that they kept letting the best drivers go. Mansell, Prost and Hill all left the team after their championship winning year because Williams had his eye on The Next Big Thing. Usually he was right but in Hill's case the NBT was Frentzen...
American iv said:
456lbft said:
...Their next big idea is the flywheel KERS, next year will see whether that gamble will pay off.
It won't - with the larger fuel tanks there isn't the packaging space apparently. http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/01464
Racefan_uk said:
Alfa numeric said:
PhillT said:
I asked Sir Frank this when I met him last year. He basically said a lack of two things - money and Adrian Newey.
That's startlingly honest, and true in my opinion.I also agree with the suggestion that they kept letting the best drivers go. Mansell, Prost and Hill all left the team after their championship winning year because Williams had his eye on The Next Big Thing. Usually he was right but in Hill's case the NBT was Frentzen...
Alfa numeric said:
PhillT said:
I asked Sir Frank this when I met him last year. He basically said a lack of two things - money and Adrian Newey.
That's startlingly honest, and true in my opinion.I also agree with the suggestion that they kept letting the best drivers go. Mansell, Prost and Hill all left the team after their championship winning year because Williams had his eye on The Next Big Thing. Usually he was right but in Hill's case the NBT was Frentzen...
I wonder if FW needs to find a Whitmarsh-like successor to reinvigorate the team from the top, allowing him to adopt a figurehead role?
groomi said:
In short: BMW.
Williams jumped on the big manufacturer engine supplier bandwagon with BMW (as McLaren with Merc, Bennetton with Renault) and then refused to let BMW take over and run things. BMW ditched them, bought Sauber and then proceeded to demonstrate exactly why Williams wouldn't let them take over.
Demonstrating what they could do by winning 1 Grand Prix in 4 seasons before quitting?Williams jumped on the big manufacturer engine supplier bandwagon with BMW (as McLaren with Merc, Bennetton with Renault) and then refused to let BMW take over and run things. BMW ditched them, bought Sauber and then proceeded to demonstrate exactly why Williams wouldn't let them take over.
Compared to 10 wins in 5 years when partnered with Williams?
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