Virgin and Lotus call for Blue Flag ban
Discussion
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87186
Basically, they'd like the top teams to actually have to overtake them, instead of them just having to move over.
Personally I think this is a thinly veiled attempt to try and get more air time for the under performing teams. Then I'm just cynical.
Basically, they'd like the top teams to actually have to overtake them, instead of them just having to move over.
Personally I think this is a thinly veiled attempt to try and get more air time for the under performing teams. Then I'm just cynical.
If they are going to do this they should re-introduce a 7% rule, but maybe make it 4% and based on quali times (I dont know how it was assessed before, does anyone know?). That would mean the front runners having to overtake the 6 or so slow cars every 25 laps. On a 50 lap race that would mean the front runners would be catching backmarkers coming up to the pitstop phase, and coming up to the the end of the race. Could make things interesting!
Edited by hugh_ on Monday 4th October 13:00
I'm all for it. If the cars are so slow the top drivers in the top teams will have no problem passing them. I hate seeing great battles (which usually take place mid-field or at the back) being ruined by a front runner coming along and the backmarkers diving out of the way. They get paid enough, surely asking them to actually overtake slow cars isn't that difficult a task.
hugh_ said:
If they are going to do this they should re-introduce a 7% rule, but maybe make it 4% and based on quali times (I dont know how it was assessed before, does anyone know?). That would mean the front runners having to overtake the 6 or so slow cars every 25 laps. On a 50 lap race that would mean the front runners would be catching backmarkers coming up to the pitstop phase, and coming up to the the end of the race. Could make things interesting!
Completely disagree, without the 107% rule it means there's a larger gap between the first an last cars. This means they're catching each other quite quickly in some cases which would make for very interesting racing if it wasn't for the blue flag rule. Overtakes such as Mansell's pounce on Senna at Hungary and Hamilton's attempt on Webber at Shanghai would become much more common. A great way to liven up the racing without silly gimmicks such as mandatory tyre changes.Edited by hugh_ on Monday 4th October 13:00
I have to say I'd agree with getting rid of the blue flags mainly because I think It would improve the racing, look at Singapore where Glock made it up to 10th at one point
We then had a spectacle of several faster cars trying to get by a slower one - also known as overtaking and they had to over extend themselves to do it - this makes for good racing and good entertainment
for the racing to be exciting there needs to be overtaking hence the rather artifical moving wing rule we're getting for next year.
Blue flags limit the overtaking opportunity as the slower car / mobile chicane is simply moved out of the way - if the faster car had to race and do it properly it increases the chances of a mistake and creates more overtaking opportunities for the fast car opponents
We then had a spectacle of several faster cars trying to get by a slower one - also known as overtaking and they had to over extend themselves to do it - this makes for good racing and good entertainment
for the racing to be exciting there needs to be overtaking hence the rather artifical moving wing rule we're getting for next year.
Blue flags limit the overtaking opportunity as the slower car / mobile chicane is simply moved out of the way - if the faster car had to race and do it properly it increases the chances of a mistake and creates more overtaking opportunities for the fast car opponents
Im not sure about having to put racing moves on a slower car, but going back to the old blue flag rule
which is simply there simply as a warning a faster car is comming up behind you, so stay on your line and its up to the faster car to safely get passed.
this 3 blue flags and leap off the circuit to let the big boys past is daft..
which is simply there simply as a warning a faster car is comming up behind you, so stay on your line and its up to the faster car to safely get passed.
this 3 blue flags and leap off the circuit to let the big boys past is daft..
It's not the flags that need to be removed, I'm sure the back markers need to be informed that a lapping car is coming up behind them. But the need to move over before passing (what is it?) 3 flags?
There have been blue flags going back to the 1960s and equivalents going way back to the 1920s.
The need of the flag hasn't changed over the years and needs to stay, only the penalty if you don't jump out of the way needs to be removed.
There have been blue flags going back to the 1960s and equivalents going way back to the 1920s.
The need of the flag hasn't changed over the years and needs to stay, only the penalty if you don't jump out of the way needs to be removed.
The blue flag has been in use in motor sport for decades. The problem is with the way backmarkers are forced now to abandon any battle they are having between themselves to allow the leaders through. Under the old more "open" rules, it was up to the backmarkers to decide when it was best to let someomne through rather than having to screw up their race to help someone else's.
While donning my flameproof race suit, overtaking backmarkers, even ones who are 2 or 3 seconds a lap slower than you, is one of the most nerve racking parts of racing and I for one would very much appreciate our series to introduce a rule like that in F1 that forces backmarkers to yield more readily.
You're confronted by someone who's braking miles further back than you but who you're not sure is going to take the racing line or yield the apex by a fraction to let you through, with no guarantee they've looked in their mirrors recently enough to see your approach, yet it's still your responsibility to carry out the pass safely.
To be blunt, these boys at the back aren't exactly setting the world alight, and although you could quite rationally argue that the '3 flags' rule is unduly restrictive, all it is doing is removing that element of doubt and sharing the onus of a safe pass between the lapper and lappee.
If it's that easy to pick out in the data where the blue flags are being shown then IMHO they should be talking to their drivers about how to minimise that time loss. Also IMHO, the idea that reintroducing this risk is anything other than artificial crowd pleasing is flawed.
You're confronted by someone who's braking miles further back than you but who you're not sure is going to take the racing line or yield the apex by a fraction to let you through, with no guarantee they've looked in their mirrors recently enough to see your approach, yet it's still your responsibility to carry out the pass safely.
To be blunt, these boys at the back aren't exactly setting the world alight, and although you could quite rationally argue that the '3 flags' rule is unduly restrictive, all it is doing is removing that element of doubt and sharing the onus of a safe pass between the lapper and lappee.
If it's that easy to pick out in the data where the blue flags are being shown then IMHO they should be talking to their drivers about how to minimise that time loss. Also IMHO, the idea that reintroducing this risk is anything other than artificial crowd pleasing is flawed.
The Wookie said:
While donning my flameproof race suit, overtaking backmarkers, even ones who are 2 or 3 seconds a lap slower than you, is one of the most nerve racking parts of racing and I for one would very much appreciate our series to introduce a rule like that in F1 that forces backmarkers to yield more readily.
You're confronted by someone who's braking miles further back than you but who you're not sure is going to take the racing line or yield the apex by a fraction to let you through, with no guarantee they've looked in their mirrors recently enough to see your approach, yet it's still your responsibility to carry out the pass safely.
To be blunt, these boys at the back aren't exactly setting the world alight, and although you could quite rationally argue that the '3 flags' rule is unduly restrictive, all it is doing is removing that element of doubt and sharing the onus of a safe pass between the lapper and lappee.
If it's that easy to pick out in the data where the blue flags are being shown then IMHO they should be talking to their drivers about how to minimise that time loss. Also IMHO, the idea that reintroducing this risk is anything other than artificial crowd pleasing is flawed.
The guys at the back of the grid are not your typical track day wannabes, they're some of the greatest circuit racers in the world. Sure they can't compete with the top guys but they're still pretty switched on.You're confronted by someone who's braking miles further back than you but who you're not sure is going to take the racing line or yield the apex by a fraction to let you through, with no guarantee they've looked in their mirrors recently enough to see your approach, yet it's still your responsibility to carry out the pass safely.
To be blunt, these boys at the back aren't exactly setting the world alight, and although you could quite rationally argue that the '3 flags' rule is unduly restrictive, all it is doing is removing that element of doubt and sharing the onus of a safe pass between the lapper and lappee.
If it's that easy to pick out in the data where the blue flags are being shown then IMHO they should be talking to their drivers about how to minimise that time loss. Also IMHO, the idea that reintroducing this risk is anything other than artificial crowd pleasing is flawed.
And that last part, surely the blue flag rule is "artificial" taking it away is reintroducing more racing, and the need for more overtaking skill.
RichB said:
Eric Mc said:
The blue flag has been in use in motor sport for decades..
Must confess if you'd asked me I'd have said they weren't around in the 60's but I'd be wrong so was it just that they were less noticable because drivers simply got on with overtaking the guy in front? 
FIA supplementary regulations for the USGP 1960 at the Riverside circuit as provided to flagmen and turn Marshals:
ARTICLE 25 OVERTAKING
During the race, a car may use any portion of the Circuit.
However, when it is overtaken along a straight line by a car temporarily or consistently faster, it shall give right of way by keeping to the right of the Circuit to allow passing on the left, which is normally the only authorized way of passing on the straight.
If a driver does not appear to allow a faster following car to pass, officials will wave the BLUE FLAG as a warning that a car is overtaking him.
Passing on curves may take place on either the right or the left . . .
The Blue Flag will also be given to drivers who obstruct the left hand side of the Circuit, and to drivers who discourage attempts at passing . . .
By that they mean when it is a lapping car passing a slower car.
I've done most of my racing in multi class racing where the speeds and abilities of the cars vary wildly and the abilities of the car are often very different to the abilities of the car !!! so maybe my thoughts are influenced by that. I think dealing with traffic is an important part part of the racing, used properly it can be an advantage, get it wrong and it can cost you a lot of time. If a back marker is simply going to jump out of the way it takes that away, and also ruins the race of the slower car if they are constantly having to worry about blue flags and getting out of the way..
as an aside i did once have a guy come up to me before a race in a much faster car from a higher class, telling me to keep put of his way when he came past to lap me i n the race... How much did I laugh when they waved the blue flag at him as I lapped him for the second time...
as an aside i did once have a guy come up to me before a race in a much faster car from a higher class, telling me to keep put of his way when he came past to lap me i n the race... How much did I laugh when they waved the blue flag at him as I lapped him for the second time...
The Wookie said:
While donning my flameproof race suit, overtaking backmarkers, even ones who are 2 or 3 seconds a lap slower than you, is one of the most nerve racking parts of racing and I for one would very much appreciate our series to introduce a rule like that in F1 that forces backmarkers to yield more readily.
You're confronted by someone who's braking miles further back than you but who you're not sure is going to take the racing line or yield the apex by a fraction to let you through, with no guarantee they've looked in their mirrors recently enough to see your approach, yet it's still your responsibility to carry out the pass safely.
To be blunt, these boys at the back aren't exactly setting the world alight, and although you could quite rationally argue that the '3 flags' rule is unduly restrictive, all it is doing is removing that element of doubt and sharing the onus of a safe pass between the lapper and lappee.
If it's that easy to pick out in the data where the blue flags are being shown then IMHO they should be talking to their drivers about how to minimise that time loss. Also IMHO, the idea that reintroducing this risk is anything other than artificial crowd pleasing is flawed.
You're confronted by someone who's braking miles further back than you but who you're not sure is going to take the racing line or yield the apex by a fraction to let you through, with no guarantee they've looked in their mirrors recently enough to see your approach, yet it's still your responsibility to carry out the pass safely.
To be blunt, these boys at the back aren't exactly setting the world alight, and although you could quite rationally argue that the '3 flags' rule is unduly restrictive, all it is doing is removing that element of doubt and sharing the onus of a safe pass between the lapper and lappee.
If it's that easy to pick out in the data where the blue flags are being shown then IMHO they should be talking to their drivers about how to minimise that time loss. Also IMHO, the idea that reintroducing this risk is anything other than artificial crowd pleasing is flawed.
Ayrton Senna was a demon backmarker passer. He'd have hated the current "after you Claude" approach.
Having said that, Senna was caught out by a deliberate blocking move by Keke Rosberg at the 1985 European GP which allowed Rosberg's team mate, Mansell, overtake Senna and go on to win his first GP. Rosberg had pitted and was running at the back of the field.
Having said that, Senna was caught out by a deliberate blocking move by Keke Rosberg at the 1985 European GP which allowed Rosberg's team mate, Mansell, overtake Senna and go on to win his first GP. Rosberg had pitted and was running at the back of the field.
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