RE: Lotus Vs Lotus F1 Battle Will Go To Full Trial
Tuesday 25th January 2011
Both Lotus...The row over the Lotus name in F1 won't be settled by the opening race of the season on 13 March, it seems, after a High Court judge decided the issue will go to a full trial.
...and, er, Lotus will be on the gridMeanwhile, there is also the row over the use of the Team Lotus name (the name under which the original Lotus F1 team traditionally ran), which Fernandes acquired from David Hunt in 2010.
Lotus Vs Lotus F1 Battle Will Go To Full Trial
If you made it up, nobody would believe you...
Both Lotus...
The saga, in which both Group Lotus and Tony Fernandes's 1Malaysia group are both claiming the right to use the Lotus name, will go to trial on 21 March - a full week after the F1 season begins in Bahrain.
The case centres on car company Group Lotus's decision to terminate a licensing deal it had with 1Malaysia group to use the Lotus name in F1, just one year into a five-year deal.
Group Lotus, which for 2011 has become title sponsor of what was formerly the Renault F1 team, says that it is perfectly within its rights to end the deal. For his part, Fernandes is suing Group Lotus for breach of contract.
...and, er, Lotus will be on the grid
The idea is to cover all of these issues in the trial. In the meantime, it seems as if there will be four Lotuses (sort of) on the grid in Bahrain in two months time.
Pic: Morio
Discussion
This could get interesting based on the outcome of the trial. As understand it teams are not allowed to change their registered name once the season is underway.
This happened to Sauber last year when they bought back BMW share of the already registered BMW Sauber team.
So if either group loses the right to use the Lotus name, it could make it difficult for them to continue the season.
The whole situation is a mess and should have been sorted before team names were registered for the season.
This happened to Sauber last year when they bought back BMW share of the already registered BMW Sauber team.
So if either group loses the right to use the Lotus name, it could make it difficult for them to continue the season.
The whole situation is a mess and should have been sorted before team names were registered for the season.
Alfanatic said:
Ironic that none of the cars, really, is a Lotus.
This has to be one of the daftest posts ever!In what sense do you mean? That neither of the F1 cars is a current road going Lotus? That neither comes from the factory?
I think that criticism can (and always could) be levelled at every F1 car that carries a road-going manufacturer's name.
In terms of which is closest to the original F1 Team Lotus heritage then it has to be Tony Fernandez's setup.
The Maylasian organisation's buyout of the former Toleman/Benetton/Renault team is about as relevant to Lotus as would SAIC buying out Hispania Racing and renaming the team MG....
Edited by r11co on Monday 24th January 21:47
Alfanatic said:
Ironic that none of the cars, really, is a Lotus.
Unless you wanted them to develop one of the old designs, Team Lotus starting with a clean sheet last year to take on the big boys. That's more lotus than rebadging a Renault.(lada currently build cars based on old renaults)...
Such a depressing story. They consume Lotus heritage like an obese person consumes food, for entirely the wrong reason! So we have two organisations with no spiritual or intellectual connection with Lotus past competing for what will be an empty husk, they will finally devalue the lotus name by their second rate efforts. As for the court case Group Lotus, a run away train heading for oblivion verses an irrelevant ego; this will produce a 'result' so mind numbing and tedious I will end up wondering why I cared in the first place.
We Lotus enthusiasts can then go back to remembering what was and wonder what could have been.
As A BRM enthusiast as well I can only be glad that no one is currently trying to tag that name onto some modern concoction!!
We Lotus enthusiasts can then go back to remembering what was and wonder what could have been.
As A BRM enthusiast as well I can only be glad that no one is currently trying to tag that name onto some modern concoction!!
Edited by Ipelm on Monday 24th January 22:33
Riggers, you're making it worse!
Group Lotus sponsor the Renault team. The team is Renault, owned by Genii capital.
Despite rumour, Genii confirmed that they still own all of Renaut, and they hae not yet sold any of it to Group Lotus:
“Genii currently owns 100 per cent of Lotus Renault GP. Eric Boullier has moved to clarify reports about the ownership structure of the Enstone based F1 team called Renault.” quoted from motorsport.nextgen-auto.com.
So, if GL lose, there will be 2 lotuses on the grid. If they win, there will be none. Whatever the outcome, the Renault team will still be Renault till at least next year.
Group Lotus sponsor the Renault team. The team is Renault, owned by Genii capital.
Despite rumour, Genii confirmed that they still own all of Renaut, and they hae not yet sold any of it to Group Lotus:
james allen said:
James Allen Reply:
January 18th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
This is interesting and a little vague at the moment as Lotus’ Claudio Berro is saying that they are already shareholders, but my understanding is that Genii still hold all the shares and Lotus will get a ‘major shareholding’. There is a call option on Lotus side to buy shares at the end of 2012.
Also,January 18th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
This is interesting and a little vague at the moment as Lotus’ Claudio Berro is saying that they are already shareholders, but my understanding is that Genii still hold all the shares and Lotus will get a ‘major shareholding’. There is a call option on Lotus side to buy shares at the end of 2012.
“Genii currently owns 100 per cent of Lotus Renault GP. Eric Boullier has moved to clarify reports about the ownership structure of the Enstone based F1 team called Renault.” quoted from motorsport.nextgen-auto.com.
So, if GL lose, there will be 2 lotuses on the grid. If they win, there will be none. Whatever the outcome, the Renault team will still be Renault till at least next year.
"If you made it up, nobody would believe you..."
Actually, this kind of situation where trade marks of common origin come into conflict is surprisingly common. For example, I recall that a lengthy dispute arose over the use of the trade mark Ideal Standard. WWII resulted in the company being broken in two, with one owning the trade mark in France and the other in Germany. Of course, after the war, the goods of one company ended up crossing into the country of the other and confusion was inevitable.
I can't help but think that Fernandez has the moral higher ground, but doubt that the court's judgment will find in one party's favour on all counts.
Actually, this kind of situation where trade marks of common origin come into conflict is surprisingly common. For example, I recall that a lengthy dispute arose over the use of the trade mark Ideal Standard. WWII resulted in the company being broken in two, with one owning the trade mark in France and the other in Germany. Of course, after the war, the goods of one company ended up crossing into the country of the other and confusion was inevitable.
I can't help but think that Fernandez has the moral higher ground, but doubt that the court's judgment will find in one party's favour on all counts.
Sure fire way to make myself depressed, read a PH thread about Lotus. Just what exactly is wrong with you people? Don't claim to be fans of Lotus and then spout such nonsense.
Legal arguments about Team Lotus name aside there is one truth here you oddballs don't seem to be able to fathom. Group Lotus IS Lotus, and Tony Fernandes is not. IF you are fans of Lotus, what are you fans of? Is it the car company that is a national asset that has such unique talents or ridiculous imagined Lotus of the 70s that never existed? Just for the record, Chapmans family have withdrawn support for Fernandes. Colin Chapman would absolutely support his actual company with an unbroken line back to him, in the same bloody buildings he built rather than an airline magnate racing under his name and Malaysian bloody flag. Closest to the original Lotus? The original Lotus never went away for gods sake, never heard such rot. Some guy is talking about BRM for gods sake, shows you the attitude at large.
If you believe perversely that Group Lotus has less right to be called Lotus than Fernandes then why did he first thing go to them for the rights? He wanted his team to be associated with Lotus the company that makes cars, it was the whole point and he asked their permission!
Why do British car companies end up dead or in foreign hands so the jingoistic and lacking in knowledge of business can bemoan it? I'll tell you why directly.
After years of underachievement that crybabies are actually quite happy with so they can pretend their Elise is some secret club the company secures huge investment and takes a massive stab at getting to where they should be. They are relying on the loyal support of their countrymen and fans to get them there but because this is the UK, all they get is dumb, jealous bile. Crying about how they wont be able to afford the new cars, whinging because they dont really want more people to enter their special little club. Now they take steps to re enter F1 (where they belong), redevelop the test track in that vain and dare to have ambition and here you all are again crying, they have to right to do what they want with their own name and heritage. Its better that a team flying the wrong colours uses that heritage without permission and runs at the back forever so you paint your Elise ownership as supporting a plucky underdog.
You bleat about how its a Renault even though Renault themselves are effectively sponsors and that is how countless manufacturers have chosen to enter F1 for years and years.
Typical crappy UK attitude that bemoans ambition and rewards mediocrity, refuses to support our own and hides its head in ignorant xenophobia. Get over it chumps, Lotus is daring to try and yes they have a foreign parent, welcome to global business as it emerged all of about 50 years ago. The boys are beavering away in the same factory as ever with the same desire and philosophy, and for once they are excited that someone has shown the faith to give them a chance to excel. Why is that supporter foreign? Because of little men like you.
Legal arguments about Team Lotus name aside there is one truth here you oddballs don't seem to be able to fathom. Group Lotus IS Lotus, and Tony Fernandes is not. IF you are fans of Lotus, what are you fans of? Is it the car company that is a national asset that has such unique talents or ridiculous imagined Lotus of the 70s that never existed? Just for the record, Chapmans family have withdrawn support for Fernandes. Colin Chapman would absolutely support his actual company with an unbroken line back to him, in the same bloody buildings he built rather than an airline magnate racing under his name and Malaysian bloody flag. Closest to the original Lotus? The original Lotus never went away for gods sake, never heard such rot. Some guy is talking about BRM for gods sake, shows you the attitude at large.
If you believe perversely that Group Lotus has less right to be called Lotus than Fernandes then why did he first thing go to them for the rights? He wanted his team to be associated with Lotus the company that makes cars, it was the whole point and he asked their permission!
Why do British car companies end up dead or in foreign hands so the jingoistic and lacking in knowledge of business can bemoan it? I'll tell you why directly.
After years of underachievement that crybabies are actually quite happy with so they can pretend their Elise is some secret club the company secures huge investment and takes a massive stab at getting to where they should be. They are relying on the loyal support of their countrymen and fans to get them there but because this is the UK, all they get is dumb, jealous bile. Crying about how they wont be able to afford the new cars, whinging because they dont really want more people to enter their special little club. Now they take steps to re enter F1 (where they belong), redevelop the test track in that vain and dare to have ambition and here you all are again crying, they have to right to do what they want with their own name and heritage. Its better that a team flying the wrong colours uses that heritage without permission and runs at the back forever so you paint your Elise ownership as supporting a plucky underdog.
You bleat about how its a Renault even though Renault themselves are effectively sponsors and that is how countless manufacturers have chosen to enter F1 for years and years.
Typical crappy UK attitude that bemoans ambition and rewards mediocrity, refuses to support our own and hides its head in ignorant xenophobia. Get over it chumps, Lotus is daring to try and yes they have a foreign parent, welcome to global business as it emerged all of about 50 years ago. The boys are beavering away in the same factory as ever with the same desire and philosophy, and for once they are excited that someone has shown the faith to give them a chance to excel. Why is that supporter foreign? Because of little men like you.
Not finished yet. Here are some direct quotes from Clive Chapman which you can see for yourselves in a video from the recent show:
"Lotus should be on track, that's what drove my father more than anything"
When directly asked about the F1 issue:
"From my families point of view, Lotus is Hethel"
"There's a lot of people who've come in, new people, who've really re-invigorated the company. Which is fantastic as I think it's now clear that's what it needed. They're working together with people who have been there ten, twenty, thirty years, people we've known a long long time. People who worked with my father."
To clarify the position of the Chapman family and of classic Team Lotus without doubt:
"We are in with Hethel, we are in with Group Lotus"
I trust we won't see any more bores on here claiming Colin Chapman would feel otherwise, that is unless you feel you can overide the feelings and wishes of his family.
"Lotus should be on track, that's what drove my father more than anything"
When directly asked about the F1 issue:
"From my families point of view, Lotus is Hethel"
"There's a lot of people who've come in, new people, who've really re-invigorated the company. Which is fantastic as I think it's now clear that's what it needed. They're working together with people who have been there ten, twenty, thirty years, people we've known a long long time. People who worked with my father."
To clarify the position of the Chapman family and of classic Team Lotus without doubt:
"We are in with Hethel, we are in with Group Lotus"
I trust we won't see any more bores on here claiming Colin Chapman would feel otherwise, that is unless you feel you can overide the feelings and wishes of his family.
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