Discussion
Ok, looking for someone out there who has keyless start option on their Porsche.
I have the same option on my boring car (Mercedes) and i have to admit getting used to it (and the keyless entry) and its pain to stick the key into the ignition (I know 1st world problem, but its a little bit of muscle memory, habit etc. now!). Unlike the BMW system with is a button wired into the car and the key is simply a remote and transponder on the Mercedes all the electronics are in the physical key which plugs into ignition like the Porsche and the actual starter button is simply a piece that plugs into the ignition that simulates the turning of the key when pressed.
Has anyone out ther optioned this and able to confirm if the Porsche system is the same and if its a part that can be removed (the Mercedes is easily removed with a small twist) and therefore added if not specified as a factory option. I’m making a big assumoption that should that be the case the transponder in the key would let it work like the Mercedes equivalent, but that’s another question!
Yes i know that people are concerned about cars being stolen but if it’s anything like the Mercedes system then the transponder is in the key, the key doesn’t activate any tumblers it just turns the ignition, so anyone with blank Porsche key shell from eBay would be able to turn the lock if they have ‘scanned’ the key anyway (happy to stand corrected)
Thanks in advance, and more than happy for anyone in the know to put me right if I’m miles from the mark!
I have the same option on my boring car (Mercedes) and i have to admit getting used to it (and the keyless entry) and its pain to stick the key into the ignition (I know 1st world problem, but its a little bit of muscle memory, habit etc. now!). Unlike the BMW system with is a button wired into the car and the key is simply a remote and transponder on the Mercedes all the electronics are in the physical key which plugs into ignition like the Porsche and the actual starter button is simply a piece that plugs into the ignition that simulates the turning of the key when pressed.
Has anyone out ther optioned this and able to confirm if the Porsche system is the same and if its a part that can be removed (the Mercedes is easily removed with a small twist) and therefore added if not specified as a factory option. I’m making a big assumoption that should that be the case the transponder in the key would let it work like the Mercedes equivalent, but that’s another question!
Yes i know that people are concerned about cars being stolen but if it’s anything like the Mercedes system then the transponder is in the key, the key doesn’t activate any tumblers it just turns the ignition, so anyone with blank Porsche key shell from eBay would be able to turn the lock if they have ‘scanned’ the key anyway (happy to stand corrected)
Thanks in advance, and more than happy for anyone in the know to put me right if I’m miles from the mark!
Koln-RS said:
Can 'keyless operation' be retro-fitted to Porsches - nice option?
Exactly what I'm trying to find out....if its just buying the button its a no brainer! I think i'll take the battery out of the spare key...if that works in the ignition with the other key in my pocket it would be a virtual replication of the operation of the button!
Unless anyone else has a spare key and car handy and wants to try before me
I think you guys have completely misunderstood how Passive Keyless Entry (PKE) works and is implemented.
The BMW/Mercedes/Porsche implementations are all exactly the same. There are proximity antennas in the handles (if you also have entry) and within the car. When you pull the handle or press the start button, the car uses these antennas to look for the key. If the key is present it responds (we'll ignore the cryptography, you can google it if interested).
BMW has a fixed start button to trigger this process and no key slot . Some other manufacturers retain the key slot, but have a plug that fits on top. The only function the plug serves is as a physical switch to trigger the PKE verification and start the car. The plug does not contain any electronics that will enable PKE on a car that doesn't have it. All the PKE electronics are embedded deep in the ECU to keep them secure.
If you want to add PKE you'll usually need to replace the door handles, add internal antennas, probably add the manufacturers PKE module and/or code the feature as active on the ECU.
If you already have keyless start and are just missing the plug, then yes all you need is the plug to get the start button
Do be aware the system has some critical flaws. A "simple" repeater with high gain antenna will allow thieves to overcome the proximity restriction. They can stand outside your house, use this to get the car started, then make off with it
The car will later detect the key is missing, but it wont cut the engine for safety reasons.
Additionally IMO the big bulky keys cripple the USP for men. I have Keyless start on my BMW, but the key goes in the cup holder. Its too bulky for my trouser/jean pocket (unless baggy comes back in fashion). And I dont want it in my jacket which usually goes in the back seat or boot.
I haven't ticked the box on my New car.
The BMW/Mercedes/Porsche implementations are all exactly the same. There are proximity antennas in the handles (if you also have entry) and within the car. When you pull the handle or press the start button, the car uses these antennas to look for the key. If the key is present it responds (we'll ignore the cryptography, you can google it if interested).
BMW has a fixed start button to trigger this process and no key slot . Some other manufacturers retain the key slot, but have a plug that fits on top. The only function the plug serves is as a physical switch to trigger the PKE verification and start the car. The plug does not contain any electronics that will enable PKE on a car that doesn't have it. All the PKE electronics are embedded deep in the ECU to keep them secure.
If you want to add PKE you'll usually need to replace the door handles, add internal antennas, probably add the manufacturers PKE module and/or code the feature as active on the ECU.
If you already have keyless start and are just missing the plug, then yes all you need is the plug to get the start button
Do be aware the system has some critical flaws. A "simple" repeater with high gain antenna will allow thieves to overcome the proximity restriction. They can stand outside your house, use this to get the car started, then make off with it
The car will later detect the key is missing, but it wont cut the engine for safety reasons.Additionally IMO the big bulky keys cripple the USP for men. I have Keyless start on my BMW, but the key goes in the cup holder. Its too bulky for my trouser/jean pocket (unless baggy comes back in fashion). And I dont want it in my jacket which usually goes in the back seat or boot.
I haven't ticked the box on my New car.
Edited by 5to1 on Thursday 3rd May 13:26
5to1 said:
Do be aware the system has some critical flaws. A "simple" repeater with high gain antenna will allow thieves to overcome the proximity restriction. They can stand outside your house, use this to get the car started, then make off with it The car will later detect the key is missing, but it wont cut the engine for safety reasons.
Additionally IMO the big bulky keys cripple the USP for men. I have Keyless start on my BMW, but the key goes in the cup holder. Its too bulky for my trouser/jean pocket (unless baggy comes back in fashion). And I dont want it in my jacket which usually goes in the back seat or boot.
on MB's keyless go system, you can disable the key by double clicking the lock button .. as a result, standing outside your house with the repeater would not work The car will later detect the key is missing, but it wont cut the engine for safety reasons.Additionally IMO the big bulky keys cripple the USP for men. I have Keyless start on my BMW, but the key goes in the cup holder. Its too bulky for my trouser/jean pocket (unless baggy comes back in fashion). And I dont want it in my jacket which usually goes in the back seat or boot.
MB keys for cars with keyless go are the same size and design as non keyless go cars.
5to1 said:
There are proximity antennas in the handles (if you also have entry) and within the car. When you pull the handle or press the start button, the car uses these antennas to look for the key. If the key is present it responds (we'll ignore the cryptography, you can google it if interested).
BMW has a fixed start button to trigger this process and no key slot . Some other manufacturers retain the key slot, but have a plug that fits on top. The only function the plug serves is as a physical switch to trigger the PKE verification and start the car. The plug does not contain any electronics that will enable PKE on a car that doesn't have it. All the PKE electronics are embedded deep in the ECU to keep them secure.
If you want to add PKE you'll usually need to replace the door handles, add internal antennas, probably add the manufacturers PKE module and/or code the feature as active on the ECU.
If you already have keyless start and are just missing the plug, then yes all you need is the plug to get the start button
I quite possibly have misunderstood which is why I'm trying to confirm how it works so thanks for the comments. Keyless entry aside, I know that's a major piece of work, my thought process was that the key was still transmitting this info to the car when its in the lock and the physical turn of the key simply the method of telling the car to start which could be replicated by the button. BMW has a fixed start button to trigger this process and no key slot . Some other manufacturers retain the key slot, but have a plug that fits on top. The only function the plug serves is as a physical switch to trigger the PKE verification and start the car. The plug does not contain any electronics that will enable PKE on a car that doesn't have it. All the PKE electronics are embedded deep in the ECU to keep them secure.
If you want to add PKE you'll usually need to replace the door handles, add internal antennas, probably add the manufacturers PKE module and/or code the feature as active on the ECU.
If you already have keyless start and are just missing the plug, then yes all you need is the plug to get the start button
Edited by 5to1 on Thursday 3rd May 13:26
I suppose the only way to check this is to stick a button in the ignition and see if it starts? Wonder in the OPC will help (I said that with a hint of sarcasm)
BTW agree on the key, I've had a useless key on the last 3 cars that I've had to find somewhere to put...the Mercedes is the best as that's keyless entry too so just having a key in the pocket is enough. On the previous BMW's I had my key in hand to unlock and invariable got sat and settled without putting key back in the pocket so had a load of shuffling or more often then not put in the cup holder. This is made worse with the Porsche key as its so big and I got the key wallet for it which makes it even bulkier!
SFO said:
5to1 said:
Do be aware the system has some critical flaws. A "simple" repeater with high gain antenna will allow thieves to overcome the proximity restriction. They can stand outside your house, use this to get the car started, then make off with it The car will later detect the key is missing, but it wont cut the engine for safety reasons.
Additionally IMO the big bulky keys cripple the USP for men. I have Keyless start on my BMW, but the key goes in the cup holder. Its too bulky for my trouser/jean pocket (unless baggy comes back in fashion). And I dont want it in my jacket which usually goes in the back seat or boot.
on MB's keyless go system, you can disable the key by double clicking the lock button .. as a result, standing outside your house with the repeater would not work The car will later detect the key is missing, but it wont cut the engine for safety reasons.Additionally IMO the big bulky keys cripple the USP for men. I have Keyless start on my BMW, but the key goes in the cup holder. Its too bulky for my trouser/jean pocket (unless baggy comes back in fashion). And I dont want it in my jacket which usually goes in the back seat or boot.
MB keys for cars with keyless go are the same size and design as non keyless go cars.
I already take a peek out the window to make sure my mirrors are folded (which tells me its locked). Next I have to start wondering if i've double clicked to disable PKE. And then swear in the morning when I pull the handle and remember oh yeah PKE is disabled. It's one of those convenience features that has to become second nature to be truly useful IMO.
WRT key size, I wasn't suggesting PKE keys are bigger. Just that modern keys are too big to make PKE useful to me. If it was credit card size and could slot into my wallet it would be perfect. I remember having a Renault hire car almost 15 years ago that had a credit card sized (albeit thicker) key and thinking this is the future. But the future never happened
TLDR, other then kick to open boot, the USP of PKE doesn't apply to me, so i'll save my money
gronk said:
I quite possibly have misunderstood which is why I'm trying to confirm how it works so thanks for the comments. Keyless entry aside, I know that's a major piece of work, my thought process was that the key was still transmitting this info to the car when its in the lock and the physical turn of the key simply the method of telling the car to start which could be replicated by the button.
I suppose the only way to check this is to stick a button in the ignition and see if it starts?
Without keyless entry/KESSY; the key is used as normal - a transponder pill within the key is picked up by the ignition switch and compared to the codes prelearned in the vehicle; if it is recognised the immobiliser is deactivated and the ignition is switched on.I suppose the only way to check this is to stick a button in the ignition and see if it starts?
The transponder pill in cars upto 2010 doesn't require a battery to function and is embedded in the key; there are two stages to programming, transponder and remote.
Since MY2005 all Porsche ignition switches of each model type are identical - any key of the same design will fit; only 'taught' keys will be able to start the car.
Latest Porsche keys (since 2009 Cayenne, 2010 Panamera and 2012 9x1) are coded using a live Manufacturer located system; a 'to VIN number preordered key' is 'allowed' by the factory and when live programming is performed the key is accepted - if the key isn't pre-allowed in the ordering process it is not accepted onto the vehicle.
Example: identical spec cars; A and B, are waiting for a new key each. An attempt is made to program car B's key onto car A; it WILL NOT work as the serial number doesn't match the order.
- As an aside; KESSY on the latest cars can be deactivated - a specific coding process is performed at a dealer (not user switchable) which renders the keyless aspects inoperable - returning a keyless car back to conventional type.
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