Are new cars IE PDK's ultimately dull even the RS now !!!
Discussion
Having driven most models as loan cars, I cannot help but wonder who really likes PDK !!
Also watched some fast laps, from Kévin Estre in the new RS and I thought , "so what" really not a lot going on and he lets the car change gear after the apex a number of times.
https://youtu.be/ySk3mA8Cigs
You get the same responses from PH as to why people buy automatics also again poor excuses from so called car people !!
1: My other half drives it
2: I drive in traffic
3: It's faster
4: It lets me think about the bends
5: I can keep both hands on the wheel.
6: I can win at track days
Are the main 6 with the top 3 being bulls
t on the whole and the last 3 laughable.
I sim race and drive a PDK style car as it's far easier and I am after that 1/10th but even sim racing getting a lap from a manual is very hard work.
Getting a lap from a manual is not rally about the gear change , it's about how you brake and have to do every thing before the bend, In an automatic there is nothing to really think about, brake at set point and turn in !!
So with all that in mind and people saying they enjoy driving, why do most buy dull as dishwater self driving Auto's which take zero skill to pilot at road speeds and even at novice track lap times ?
Most of my mates now drive Auto's and I feel lucky that my other half likes manual and that my dad at 88 would not buy an Auto either.
Also watched some fast laps, from Kévin Estre in the new RS and I thought , "so what" really not a lot going on and he lets the car change gear after the apex a number of times.
https://youtu.be/ySk3mA8Cigs
You get the same responses from PH as to why people buy automatics also again poor excuses from so called car people !!
1: My other half drives it
2: I drive in traffic
3: It's faster
4: It lets me think about the bends
5: I can keep both hands on the wheel.
6: I can win at track days
Are the main 6 with the top 3 being bulls
t on the whole and the last 3 laughable.I sim race and drive a PDK style car as it's far easier and I am after that 1/10th but even sim racing getting a lap from a manual is very hard work.
Getting a lap from a manual is not rally about the gear change , it's about how you brake and have to do every thing before the bend, In an automatic there is nothing to really think about, brake at set point and turn in !!
So with all that in mind and people saying they enjoy driving, why do most buy dull as dishwater self driving Auto's which take zero skill to pilot at road speeds and even at novice track lap times ?
Most of my mates now drive Auto's and I feel lucky that my other half likes manual and that my dad at 88 would not buy an Auto either.
While I can see why some people go for PDK, I would only buy a manual car in the future if I had to change from my current one.
I don't understand why you don't think other people's reasons are valid, it's just a choice which is equally as "good" as yours. I think you should aim your rant at the manufacturers, as they're depriving us all of that choice.
I don't understand why you don't think other people's reasons are valid, it's just a choice which is equally as "good" as yours. I think you should aim your rant at the manufacturers, as they're depriving us all of that choice.
Or you could turn it around. Why would you but a totally "digital" car, with a manual gearbox? Trick suspensions, rws, torque vectoring, clever diffs, sticky tyres, epas... Can't see the allure of buying the latest and greatest in tech, a 911 GT3 built for the track, and then compromise it with a manual gearbox?
I see the allure of the manual, but why not buy something which is designed around it? A 993 Turbo seems like a perfect pick. You have the torque which enables you to stay in gear (if you like), it also likes to rev (at a pleasant rate), it has improved ABS, but not reliant on other electronic gizmos.
I see the allure of the manual, but why not buy something which is designed around it? A 993 Turbo seems like a perfect pick. You have the torque which enables you to stay in gear (if you like), it also likes to rev (at a pleasant rate), it has improved ABS, but not reliant on other electronic gizmos.
Edited by acey81 on Tuesday 29th May 16:03
I agree with Demon to an extent however with some reservations..The new Porsches are so accomplished IMO , in that they need PDK and RWS to perform to their full potential..I've owned countless Porsches over the years, both manual and PDK and love both equally, albeit for different reasons..
My new PDK GT3 is a wondrous car and the latest PDKS is truly brilliant in everything it does..The PDKS in GT models IMO is so much better than the standard PDK, their almost like different gearboxes..On the new GT3 it has closer ratios and lower gearing than the manual which makes it quicker..The trouble with this is it makes it way too quick for semi-sensible road driving..However on the rare occasion i get a traffic free twisty road in front of me, and i'm in the right mood there is nothing more intoxicating than slipping the lever into manual and flipping up and down gears for the sheer hell of it..
I also love Porsches in manual as my new Spyder is more fun at lower speeds than my GT3..I have PDK on the new Panamera ST and i can't imagine having a manual in it..
Its basically 'horses for courses' as some Porsches would be stupid to get in manual and equally other Porsches would be equally stupid in PDK..As an example my Spyder would be daft with a PDK and equally a Cayenne or Panny daft in manual..The new GT3 is equally brilliant in either box IMO...just different..!
I'm hoping to test drive the new T this week, as long its a manual, and i hope i don't fall for its charms too much as i already have four Porsches and one more would be quite ridiculous..
My new PDK GT3 is a wondrous car and the latest PDKS is truly brilliant in everything it does..The PDKS in GT models IMO is so much better than the standard PDK, their almost like different gearboxes..On the new GT3 it has closer ratios and lower gearing than the manual which makes it quicker..The trouble with this is it makes it way too quick for semi-sensible road driving..However on the rare occasion i get a traffic free twisty road in front of me, and i'm in the right mood there is nothing more intoxicating than slipping the lever into manual and flipping up and down gears for the sheer hell of it..
I also love Porsches in manual as my new Spyder is more fun at lower speeds than my GT3..I have PDK on the new Panamera ST and i can't imagine having a manual in it..
Its basically 'horses for courses' as some Porsches would be stupid to get in manual and equally other Porsches would be equally stupid in PDK..As an example my Spyder would be daft with a PDK and equally a Cayenne or Panny daft in manual..The new GT3 is equally brilliant in either box IMO...just different..!
I'm hoping to test drive the new T this week, as long its a manual, and i hope i don't fall for its charms too much as i already have four Porsches and one more would be quite ridiculous..
Edited by Taffy66 on Tuesday 29th May 10:43
acey81 said:
Or you could turn it around. Why would you but a totally "digital" car, with a manual gearbox? Trick suspensions, rws, torque vectoring, clever diffs, sticky tyres, epas... Can't see the allure of buying the latest and greatest in tech, a 911 GT3 built for the track, and then compromise it with a manual gearbox?
I see the allure of the manual, but why not buy something which is designed around it? A 993 Turbo seems like a perfect pick. You have the torque which enables you to stay in gear (if you lie), it also likes to rev (at a pleasant rate), it has improved ABS, but not reliant on other electronic gizmos.
Good post..I see the allure of the manual, but why not buy something which is designed around it? A 993 Turbo seems like a perfect pick. You have the torque which enables you to stay in gear (if you lie), it also likes to rev (at a pleasant rate), it has improved ABS, but not reliant on other electronic gizmos.
acey81 said:
Or you could turn it around. Why would you but a totally "digital" car, with a manual gearbox? Trick suspensions, rws, torque vectoring, clever diffs, sticky tyres, epas... Can't see the allure of buying the latest and greatest in tech, a 911 GT3 built for the track, and then compromise it with a manual gearbox?
I see the allure of the manual, but why not buy something which is designed around it? A 993 Turbo seems like a perfect pick. You have the torque which enables you to stay in gear (if you lie), it also likes to rev (at a pleasant rate), it has improved ABS, but not reliant on other electronic gizmos.
Hence why I love my 987.2 Spyder and Cayman R both are more fun than a £190k Gt3 ! I see the allure of the manual, but why not buy something which is designed around it? A 993 Turbo seems like a perfect pick. You have the torque which enables you to stay in gear (if you lie), it also likes to rev (at a pleasant rate), it has improved ABS, but not reliant on other electronic gizmos.
Cannot see a 993 Turbo offering more, been in a few, they are point and squirt cars and have poor throttle response.
At least with the new GT3 they also took out the E-Diff if you went manual. Not really noticed RWS bar it makes it drive more like my GT4 :-)
and I do like Mid engine cars more.
I had a funny call today off a Mate "just got my new car" we had a chat he then said "It's so easy, just floor it and the car does every thing"
Really funny to get that call one hour after my post and he sums it up perfect "SO EASY"
Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 29th May 10:53
Porsche911R said:
I had a funny call today off a Mate "just got my new car" we had a chat he then said "It's so easy, just floor it and the car does every thing"
Really funny to get that call one hour after my post and he sums it up perfect "SO EASY"
Actually that was me making a 'hoax call'..I just love chucking more wood on a roaring fire..!Really funny to get that call one hour after my post and he sums it up perfect "SO EASY"
Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 29th May 10:53
Porsche911R said:
Also watched some fast laps, from Kévin Estre in the new RS and I thought , "so what" really not a lot going on and he lets the car change gear after the apex a number of times.
Try actually driving at the speed that Estre did around the ring then come back and tell me (if you can say make it round SX at a minimum corner speed of 230+km/h in the first place) if you still think 'so what'. Taffy66 said:
acey81 said:
Or you could turn it around. Why would you but a totally "digital" car, with a manual gearbox? Trick suspensions, rws, torque vectoring, clever diffs, sticky tyres, epas... Can't see the allure of buying the latest and greatest in tech, a 911 GT3 built for the track, and then compromise it with a manual gearbox?
I see the allure of the manual, but why not buy something which is designed around it? A 993 Turbo seems like a perfect pick. You have the torque which enables you to stay in gear (if you lie), it also likes to rev (at a pleasant rate), it has improved ABS, but not reliant on other electronic gizmos.
Good post..I see the allure of the manual, but why not buy something which is designed around it? A 993 Turbo seems like a perfect pick. You have the torque which enables you to stay in gear (if you lie), it also likes to rev (at a pleasant rate), it has improved ABS, but not reliant on other electronic gizmos.
isaldiri said:
Porsche911R said:
Also watched some fast laps, from Kévin Estre in the new RS and I thought , "so what" really not a lot going on and he lets the car change gear after the apex a number of times.
Try actually driving at the speed that Estre did around the ring then come back and tell me (if you can say make it round SX at a minimum corner speed of 230+km/h in the first place) if you still think 'so what'. isaldiri said:
Try actually driving at the speed that Estre did around the ring then come back and tell me (if you can say make it round SX at a minimum corner speed of 230+km/h in the first place) if you still think 'so what'.
lol I agree he has the skills 100% but I would rather watch a lap from him in a manual GT3 as that would be interesting to watch, the vid I posted was dull as are all vids with PDK's !!!I am not a pro driver, so I can see where the speeds comes from with pro drivers, what's interesting on the Ring laps from the drivers is they all did the same times give or take, fast laps in Automatics are more about track knowledge, Balls and thrashing the **** out of it, not really driver skills bar the last few 10ths at that level. and yes I would be a minute off :-)
But I would love to try and keep up with a Pro in a Manual GT3 if I were following in a PDK car at a track I did know well and the Pro did not to see if they could pull away on skill alone with me having the PDK advantage of less work to process.
I have had Pro race training and thought no way can I drive like (due to the work load) that but that was in manual cars 15 years a go, in modern cars the gap has closed by quite a margin. I have had current training (well about 3 years a go) and my Instructor could not really offer any extra advice bar , grow some balls and drive faster. lol , My time lost in manuals in corner entry, that would all but vanish in a PDK car for me. Bigger Balls and thrashing my own car , well that's not going to happen, no one wants to bin their own cars at these values.
Porsche911R said:
isaldiri said:
Try actually driving at the speed that Estre did around the ring then come back and tell me (if you can say make it round SX at a minimum corner speed of 230+km/h in the first place) if you still think 'so what'.
lol I agree he has the skills 100% but I would rather watch a lap from him in a manual GT3 as that would be interesting to watch, the vid I posted was dull as are all vids with PDK's !!!I am not a pro driver, so I can see where the speeds comes from with pro drivers, what's interesting on the Ring laps from the drivers is they all did the same times give or take, fast laps in Automatics are more about track knowledge, Balls and thrashing the **** out of it, not really driver skills bar the last few 10ths at that level. and yes I would be a minute off :-)
But I would love to try and keep up with a Pro in a Manual GT3 if I were following in a PDK car at a track I did know well and the Pro did not to see if they could pull away on skill alone with me having the PDK advantage of less work to process.
I have had Pro race training and thought no way can I drive like (due to the work load) that but that was in manual cars 15 years a go, in modern cars the gap has closed by quite a margin. I have had current training (well about 3 years a go) and my Instructor could not really offer any extra advice bar , grow some balls and drive faster. lol , My time lost in manuals in corner entry, that would all but vanish in a PDK car for me. Bigger Balls and thrashing my own car , well that's not going to happen, no one wants to bin their own cars at these values.
it all comes down to this - you might gain a little by having a PDK box vs a pro in a manual, but after the first few corners you'd be looking at the car in front disappear. As for track knowledge - take a PDK, 4wd, 4wd down a road you know intimately and put a decent rally driver in a 2wd manual and he'll destroy whatever time you set.
There are very few sports where the gulf between amateur and professional has widened so much as motorsport. I saw Sebastien Loeb drive in our local tarmac rally a few years ago as part of his rehab - he was quicker than the other pro drivers as you would expect, but the decent privateers looked as though they were in milk floats compared to him.
You're entitled to your view on PDK, which I disagree with, but your notion that you'd keep up with a professional driver if he was in a manual and you were in a PDK is a fantasy.
pete.g said:
What you denigrate as simply 'balls and thrashing' is the skill of the pro driver. They carry speed into corners and then exit at speeds others can't.
it all comes down to this - you might gain a little by having a PDK box vs a pro in a manual, but after the first few corners you'd be looking at the car in front disappear. As for track knowledge - take a PDK, 4wd, 4wd down a road you know intimately and put a decent rally driver in a 2wd manual and he'll destroy whatever time you set.
There are very few sports where the gulf between amateur and professional has widened so much as motorsport. I saw Sebastien Loeb drive in our local tarmac rally a few years ago as part of his rehab - he was quicker than the other pro drivers as you would expect, but the decent privateers looked as though they were in milk floats compared to him.
You're entitled to your view on PDK, which I disagree with, but your notion that you'd keep up with a professional driver if he was in a manual and you were in a PDK is a fantasy.
I have also done rally courses and it's a whole new skill set, look at F1 drivers who get guest rally drives, they fail quite fast !!it all comes down to this - you might gain a little by having a PDK box vs a pro in a manual, but after the first few corners you'd be looking at the car in front disappear. As for track knowledge - take a PDK, 4wd, 4wd down a road you know intimately and put a decent rally driver in a 2wd manual and he'll destroy whatever time you set.
There are very few sports where the gulf between amateur and professional has widened so much as motorsport. I saw Sebastien Loeb drive in our local tarmac rally a few years ago as part of his rehab - he was quicker than the other pro drivers as you would expect, but the decent privateers looked as though they were in milk floats compared to him.
You're entitled to your view on PDK, which I disagree with, but your notion that you'd keep up with a professional driver if he was in a manual and you were in a PDK is a fantasy.
And on said rally course on the Circuit part of the training I was getting faster lap times than most of the privateers rally drivers which made me look like a fool on the grit earlier.
So "Sebastien Loeb " will make Lewis H" look slow on dirt both pro drivers.
I did improve 300% on my rally course as I went from totally s
t to just st, but a rally car is a new ball game of which I do not have the skills or seat time or under stand the brake bias and set ups of said cars. so all a bit moot imo to talk about rally drivers.Having no fear I guess you might call a skill, but they don't mind crashing other peoples cars and they do quite often, I do. Thrashing a car takes zero skill, I just don't do it, if you look a the ring laps you are keeping the car above 7k 100% of the time. no one drives like that in real life or would kill their own car like that on track.
take a look at drivers on PH when I said you can stay in 3rd year in a GT4 most of the time, people laughed as most will not keep the revs that high ALL of the time, when really you can in the GT4 on most B roads just stay in 3rd. but go out with other people they want to change gear to 4th for NO reason !!!!
people are loving the turbo cars more and more as they like Torque at 3k revs, when I go out I don't see 3k revs !!!
you had the guy try and take Porsche to court for the rev issue at 1.8k revs in 4th on the Cayman R FFS who drives like that ?
Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 29th May 12:27
On the gt3 I find the pdk allows you to exploit the engine far more.35 years of car buying almost all manuals but I enjoy the gt3 with pdk far more than say the gt4 I had ,so unlikely to ever revert back to manual.
There is only one factor in buying high performance cars ..do you enjoy it ? If you enjoy manual buy a manual ,if you enjoy pdk buy pdk ,it’s not a right or wrong decision .
There is only one factor in buying high performance cars ..do you enjoy it ? If you enjoy manual buy a manual ,if you enjoy pdk buy pdk ,it’s not a right or wrong decision .
franki68 said:
On the gt3 I find the pdk allows you to exploit the engine far more.35 years of car buying almost all manuals but I enjoy the gt3 with pdk far more than say the gt4 I had ,so unlikely to ever revert back to manual.
There is only one factor in buying high performance cars ..do you enjoy it ? If you enjoy manual buy a manual ,if you enjoy pdk buy pdk ,it’s not a right or wrong decision .
Yes, if you want PDK buy PDK that is very true, what is not correct is statements like "the pdk allows you to exploit the engine far more" that's just as daft as the 6 other excuses why to buy PDK !There is only one factor in buying high performance cars ..do you enjoy it ? If you enjoy manual buy a manual ,if you enjoy pdk buy pdk ,it’s not a right or wrong decision .
acey81 said:
Or you could turn it around. Why would you buy a totally "digital" car, with a manual gearbox? Trick suspensions, rws, torque vectoring, clever diffs, sticky tyres, epas... Can't see the allure of buying the latest and greatest in tech, a 911 GT3 built for the track, and then compromise it with a manual gearbox?
But why stop with an automatic gearbox as a solution for the compromise of using a manual gearbox? Let's look further ahead...Why not... replace the driver altogether with a car which drives itself? Let's call it an "autonomous vehicle" shall we?
Why would you buy a totally autonomous car, with a steering wheel and pedals for the driver to take control?
With no poor driver responses or errors to influence the best possible use of all the car's features the driverless Porsche must surely be the fastest to ever go around the 'ring? Oh... and someone could sit in the front right seat just for the hell of it, but not touch anything.
I drive a PDK but understand those who make the "excuse" for driving a manual (more slowly) due to one of the following:
A) More involvement with the car
B) It's what I'm used to
C) Some racing cars are manuals
D) Nostalgia
E) Faster gear changes
F) Stops me playing with myself
G) I have a "heel" and a "toe"
Like a previous poster I sometimes (last few days) flip the gear-lever over and use it, or the paddles, for some "fun". mostly so I can keep the revs higher longer so as to hear my F6 scream at lower road speeds. (PS, not an issue in a 718)
We have that manual override in PDK cars but I'd still probably accept one with no manual option as PDK is so good for 99% of my driving. But, if one day I have to succumb to an autonomous vehicle where the driver has no override and no steering wheel I'd veto it and take public transport.
Some still like to drive cars where they have to start them by cranking a handle at the front of the car. So long as these cars exist, someone will enjoy driving them. So long as manual cars exist, some will enjoy driving them.
But in the same way the starting handle has become obsolete due to manufacturer's views on what the average driver wants and should have, so the manual gearbox may die out in favour of automatics. That's progress.
Let's hope the ability to drive your own car doesn't die out too? For me, THAT would be a step too far!
Edited by DJMC on Tuesday 29th May 13:10
Porsche911R said:
franki68 said:
On the gt3 I find the pdk allows you to exploit the engine far more.35 years of car buying almost all manuals but I enjoy the gt3 with pdk far more than say the gt4 I had ,so unlikely to ever revert back to manual.
There is only one factor in buying high performance cars ..do you enjoy it ? If you enjoy manual buy a manual ,if you enjoy pdk buy pdk ,it’s not a right or wrong decision .
Yes, if you want PDK buy PDK that is very true, what is not correct is statements like "the pdk allows you to exploit the engine far more" that's just as daft as the 6 other excuses why to buy PDK !There is only one factor in buying high performance cars ..do you enjoy it ? If you enjoy manual buy a manual ,if you enjoy pdk buy pdk ,it’s not a right or wrong decision .
isaldiri said:
Try actually driving at the speed that Estre did around the ring then come back and tell me (if you can say make it round SX at a minimum corner speed of 230+km/h in the first place) if you still think 'so what'.
KE did a hero lap in the RS. What a joy to watch him go fully committed. Anyone having driven the Ring in anger knows that you don't ask yourself the question "so what" when you do soIn a race car I'd always go sequential/auto as I will be faster. On the road I prefer the engagement from the manual.
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