oil over-fill / over-kill - need advice
Discussion
Got my Tuscan S finally back with a new clutch, yesterday. The garage (a local Morgan dealer and "specialist"...) did some "standard checks" ... and filled up 4 (four) liters of engine oil up to the Max. mark on the dip stick at cold engine ... ! After 50 miles of warming it up and test-driving it (new clutch is fine though), the engine started stuttering, black smoke out of the exhausts, smells like an old 2-tact Mobilette and sounds like an old Lanz buldog tractor... :-(
Today, I made the garage take 3,5 liters of oil out again, clean the air-box and air-filter and the throttle bodies, but she is still struggeling ... (the "specialst" say it would burn free again after a couple of miles - but I don't trust these guys at all anymore)
Do I need to get cleaned or even changed the sparkplugs as well ?
Anything else to pay attention to/ clean or replace ?
What happens/can happen when over-filling the oil level to such an extend?
Today, I made the garage take 3,5 liters of oil out again, clean the air-box and air-filter and the throttle bodies, but she is still struggeling ... (the "specialst" say it would burn free again after a couple of miles - but I don't trust these guys at all anymore)
Do I need to get cleaned or even changed the sparkplugs as well ?
Anything else to pay attention to/ clean or replace ?
What happens/can happen when over-filling the oil level to such an extend?
It's probably fouled the plugs & *might* have damaged the cats/fouled the lamda sensors.
I'd say you'd be best to drive it & hope that the oil burns off, I think it's unlikely any permanent damage (other than possibly the cats) has been done, although 3-4 litres is a huge amount to overfill!
I'd say you'd be best to drive it & hope that the oil burns off, I think it's unlikely any permanent damage (other than possibly the cats) has been done, although 3-4 litres is a huge amount to overfill!
@ BGB autosport: what kind of "serious damage" would/could this be ?
@ Nelly 1: Yep, was my thought as well, but fortunately it is currently de-catted ;-)
Bought some 6 new NGB sparks, called my TVR grage in Belgium (280km away) for remote advice and fixed a date with a local Lotus garage for tomorrow, in order to replace the sparks and clean everthing again... Let´s cross fingers it´s nothing serious - I did about 100 miles over-filled in total.
@ Nelly 1: Yep, was my thought as well, but fortunately it is currently de-catted ;-)
Bought some 6 new NGB sparks, called my TVR grage in Belgium (280km away) for remote advice and fixed a date with a local Lotus garage for tomorrow, in order to replace the sparks and clean everthing again... Let´s cross fingers it´s nothing serious - I did about 100 miles over-filled in total.
Bad news from the diagnostics after fitting new sparkplugs and cleaning everything again today: Cylinder 5 has no more compression. The oil-flud entering through the throttle-bodies seems to have damaged/blocked/burned/crusted the valves... :-(( tbc after opening the head.
Will get her towed to the TVR Garage in Belgium next week ....
Really pi...d about this, especially since they forecast good weather for the long week-end. Invoices will go to the Morgan garage in Luxembourg - if needed by my lawyer !
Will get her towed to the TVR Garage in Belgium next week ....
Really pi...d about this, especially since they forecast good weather for the long week-end. Invoices will go to the Morgan garage in Luxembourg - if needed by my lawyer !
Funky Jo said:
Bad news from the diagnostics after fitting new sparkplugs and cleaning everything again today: Cylinder 5 has no more compression. The oil-flud entering through the throttle-bodies seems to have damaged/blocked/burned/crusted the valves... :-(( tbc after opening the head.
Will get her towed to the TVR Garage in Belgium next week ....
Really pi...d about this, especially since they forecast good weather for the long week-end. Invoices will go to the Morgan garage in Luxembourg - if needed by my lawyer !
Sorry to hear this and that my suspicions have been confirmed. Will get her towed to the TVR Garage in Belgium next week ....
Really pi...d about this, especially since they forecast good weather for the long week-end. Invoices will go to the Morgan garage in Luxembourg - if needed by my lawyer !
It could be a carbon build up around the piston rings and its stopping them seating properly or could be the valves not seating due to crap but i doubt it. More likely one or more valves are burnt, worst case is its burnt a piston.
One trick to try is drop a couple of tea spoons of oil into the cylinder then try the compression test again, if its the rings the reading should start higher than before then drop back down.
My imperfect understanding of the problem is that the oil will not have caused the octane level to reduce as such, but in effect has caused a very weak fuel mixture, which could burn the valves and melt a hole in the pistons.
The fuel mixture is weak because the total fuel/air mixture ratio (nominally 14.7:1) has been altered by the introduction of the oil. During combustion the fuel protects the pistons and valves from melting (called detonation) and the oil does not?
There must be someone clerver than me who can explain what has happened in more detail?
The fuel mixture is weak because the total fuel/air mixture ratio (nominally 14.7:1) has been altered by the introduction of the oil. During combustion the fuel protects the pistons and valves from melting (called detonation) and the oil does not?
There must be someone clerver than me who can explain what has happened in more detail?
I discussed the possible impacts with a real specialist (car mechanics teacher) today. Here is what he told me (summarizing with my own "non-engineer" words):
> best case, the oil-smoke went carbonated inside the cylinder and build up a carbon coating to the exhaust valves / valve springs / piston rings so that they do not fully close the cylinder`s detonation chamber any more.
> eventually, the oil smoke has condensed/oil entered in liquid form into the cylinder, where it may have caused a "hydroscopic shock" (liquid oil is not compressable, so the compression power would cause a real "clonk" to the valves (deformation).
> worst case, the valves and/or the piston has been burned by the oil-fuel-air mixture and the lamda sensor might well have been fouled as well... if there would have been catalysts, these would certainly have gone as well
An endoscopic investigation / opening the head will tell what really and exactly happened.
> best case, the oil-smoke went carbonated inside the cylinder and build up a carbon coating to the exhaust valves / valve springs / piston rings so that they do not fully close the cylinder`s detonation chamber any more.
> eventually, the oil smoke has condensed/oil entered in liquid form into the cylinder, where it may have caused a "hydroscopic shock" (liquid oil is not compressable, so the compression power would cause a real "clonk" to the valves (deformation).
> worst case, the valves and/or the piston has been burned by the oil-fuel-air mixture and the lamda sensor might well have been fouled as well... if there would have been catalysts, these would certainly have gone as well
An endoscopic investigation / opening the head will tell what really and exactly happened.
Edited by Funky Jo on Saturday 2nd May 00:49
Edited by Funky Jo on Saturday 2nd May 01:06
After 11 weeks without my car and 4 weeks sitting in the Belgian TVR garage, I still do not even know what`s wrong, since nothing was done, yet. They seem to be completely overloaded with cars from all over France and the BeNeLux to be sorted prior to the events in Le Mans, Zolder etc...
THIS REALLY SUCKS and I start thinking about towing her through the tunnel to a UK garage... Or is there any UK TVR workshop offering a "pick up from the continent service" (at reasonable pricing)?
We unfortunately don`t have much choice over here ... :-(
THIS REALLY SUCKS and I start thinking about towing her through the tunnel to a UK garage... Or is there any UK TVR workshop offering a "pick up from the continent service" (at reasonable pricing)?
We unfortunately don`t have much choice over here ... :-(
Funky Jo said:
After 11 weeks without my car and 4 weeks sitting in the Belgian TVR garage, I still do not even know what`s wrong, since nothing was done, yet. They seem to be completely overloaded with cars from all over France and the BeNeLux to be sorted prior to the events in Le Mans, Zolder etc...
THIS REALLY SUCKS and I start thinking about towing her through the tunnel to a UK garage... Or is there any UK TVR workshop offering a "pick up from the continent service" (at reasonable pricing)?
We unfortunately don`t have much choice over here ... :-(
Nimag, Holland ?THIS REALLY SUCKS and I start thinking about towing her through the tunnel to a UK garage... Or is there any UK TVR workshop offering a "pick up from the continent service" (at reasonable pricing)?
We unfortunately don`t have much choice over here ... :-(
They might even pick it up (at a cost).
I just realized that I never posted the final outcome of this issue - well, actually it is still not 100% sorted:
After taking the head off it turned out (see pic) that the gasket had burned between pot 4 and 5 and several pistons had suffered from carbonated oil.
The potentially 'guilty' Morgan garage informed their insurance company who sent an expert for root cause analyzes. The X-perte concluded that the massive oil overfilling might well have accelerated the engine going pop (gasket, pistons, liners, block, etc.) but the root cause would be an overheating / lack of lubrification of the engine in the past..
After I had my TVR garage confirming this, I ended up with a complete engine rebuild paid from my own wallet.
Now, 10 months and a 2nd rebuild
(under warranty) later (1st lasted 2500 miles, consuming 8,5 liters of engine oil...overheating the engine again) it looks that the root cause most probably was a faulty ECU, overfueling the engine which then caused the oil to be'washed off' from the pistons... overheating / running dry the engine. The ECU is still in the UK for investigation, while engine Nr. 3 is running fine - knock on wood (1000 miles without a drop of oil onsumption so far).
The adventure TVR continues ...
After taking the head off it turned out (see pic) that the gasket had burned between pot 4 and 5 and several pistons had suffered from carbonated oil.
The potentially 'guilty' Morgan garage informed their insurance company who sent an expert for root cause analyzes. The X-perte concluded that the massive oil overfilling might well have accelerated the engine going pop (gasket, pistons, liners, block, etc.) but the root cause would be an overheating / lack of lubrification of the engine in the past..
After I had my TVR garage confirming this, I ended up with a complete engine rebuild paid from my own wallet.
Now, 10 months and a 2nd rebuild
(under warranty) later (1st lasted 2500 miles, consuming 8,5 liters of engine oil...overheating the engine again) it looks that the root cause most probably was a faulty ECU, overfueling the engine which then caused the oil to be'washed off' from the pistons... overheating / running dry the engine. The ECU is still in the UK for investigation, while engine Nr. 3 is running fine - knock on wood (1000 miles without a drop of oil onsumption so far).The adventure TVR continues ...
Edited by Funky Jo on Wednesday 24th March 23:14
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