Friday 24th September 2004

Radical change in road tax forecast

Mr Norris changes fuels

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Ex-Transport Minister Steven Norris is forecasting a dramatic shift away from fuel taxation as a method of raising revenue as Britain moves towards a hydrogen-based economy.

The former MP predicted the change as ‘we near the end of fossil fuels’.

He said: ‘Over the next decade, the Government will be forced to introduce alternative forms of taxation, including taxes on vehicle movement, which is the most effective way of influencing traffic flows. Charging can be used to get people on to roads you want them to use.’

Norris, the Conservative candidate who failed to dislodge Labour’s Ken Livingstone as London Mayor in this year’s election, praised his rival’s bravery in introducing the congestion charge operating in the centre of the capital.

He told delegates at a public sector fleet conference hosted by LeasePlan’s automotive leasing division in Warwickshire, that the congestion charge was welcomed by business car drivers who enjoyed lighter traffic in the heart of London, but that it was not the full answer.

He said: ‘The charge covers only eight square miles out of a total of 660 in London and collecting payments by photographing number plates is a nightmare. New motorways with toll charges are not the answer, because that decants traffic on to other roads. Payment linked to traffic management has to be the long-term way of raising tax as cars with fuel cells arrive.’

Norris said workplace parking charges were logical because people only drove if they knew there was somewhere to leave their car at the end of a journey. The Government had been forced to scale down pledges on investment in roads and improvements and a more effective approach on encouraging the use of trains and buses was essential, he said.

[MGV8]

So why do you drive to work and not take, say the train?

If we had the choice this would be ok?

[jam1et]

Putting tax on vehicle movements seems fair to me. Charges for company car parks is not. The more you use the road infrastructure the more you should contribute. This would be fair if the tax paid was actually used to repair and improve the infrastructure but unfortunately it isnt. Also, if costs keep escalating we'll end up with the situation where the rich can happily continue to use the motor car at the expense of the poor who have to use a decrepit public transport system. We're heading that way already.

[dinkus]

I agree that taxation based on the amount you use your car is good. This seems to be done very effectively with fuel tax. We don't like it, but I'd rather pay more for the fuel I use than have a big brother tracking box in my car. By taxing fuel, you also give a 'tax relief' to people that buy more fuel efficient cars.

It works, it's in place now and it doesn't require a huge expenditure on technology that will have to be paid for and is a lot easier to tamper with.

As far as what is done with the tax money, it really needs to be put back into public transport and infrastructure maintenance. Otherwise it just ends up with travel getting more expensive, withou any noticable improvement anywhere.

Business car park charging is only viable if there is actually an alternative means to get to work. If you live in a city, there usually is, but out in the middle of nowhere the only way that I can get to work is by car. I work right by a train station, but there is no train station in the town I live in. Yes, there is a bus, but to get it I have to get to work 30mins late and leave 20mins early. Plus it costs more than it does in petrol for me to drive.

The main problem seems to be the government thinking that everyone lives in London. Not everybody drives to work because they simply don't want to go by public transport...

[Apache]

"He said: ‘Over the next decade, the Government will be forced to introduce alternative forms of taxation, including taxes on vehicle movement"

Who's forcing them? or is this just another ploy to extract more money from us mugs by Labour plc

[Mr Whippy]

Just like everything else the government says and promises, do you actually expect this to ever happen

Nope

Dave

[Rob_the_Sparky]

I damn well hope not! As someone else has already said fuel tax does exactly what they want and keeps the system simple.

TBH I don't even see the point of car tax. Just base the whole damn thing on fuel and allow us to run as many cars as we like...

[modernbeat]

"He said: ‘Over the next decade, the Government will be forced to introduce alternative forms of taxation, including taxes on vehicle movement"

What he really means is:

"We introduced exceptions to congestion charging to reward those that used alternative fuels, but many more than expected have taken advantage of it. To make up for the forcasted income, we'll have to switch to a different method of taxation with fewer loopholes."

[Toffer]

Ohh, that's why he is called nobber...

[ingrowtn]

I seem to recall that fuel duty on fossil fuels was hiked in response to Kyoto and that monies raised from fossil fuel duties were supposed to be used to clean up the environment from the effect that burning those fossil fuels created.

Isn't the Road Fund Licence supposed to pay for the upkeep of the roads?

Surely when eveyone goes hydrogen there is no environmental impact so no further need for the duty? Or have our erstwhile government (this and previous) been less than candid in telling us, the taxpayer, where the money actually goes?

As for public transport, why would I possibly want to walk from my house, in the rain, and then be jammed like a sardine on a bus with loads of other wet and smelly people? It just isn't going to happen.

Buses in rush hour are a death trap the way people are squeezed on. (It's not just the bus companies that are responsible for this, it's people themselves determined to get on a obviously full bus).

Remember, we have a voice in this too. The result of the fuel protests a couple of years back shows what can be achieved when people believe things have gone too far.

[Size Nine Elm]

It would be impossible for me to take public transport to work.

There are no bus routes that go from the bedroom, via the kitchen for breakfast, to the study.

And they can't manage the stairs...

[dodge]

Apache said:

"He said: ‘Over the next decade, the Government will be forced to introduce alternative forms of taxation, including taxes on vehicle movement" Who's forcing them? or is this just another ploy to extract more money from us mugs by Labour plc

I imagine the fact that they'll lose squillions of pounds of road tax might be a factor, as everyone will be driving nice non-polluting Hydrogen cars, apparently.

"forced to" in this case actually means "unwilling to lose such a lot of income that could be spent persecuting motorists when they could simply"

So, what he actually said was:

"Over the next decade, the Government will be [unwilling to lose such a lot of income that could be spent persecuting motorists when they could simply] introduce alternative forms of taxation, including taxes on vehicle movement"

[corozin]

Aha... and so we reach the nub of it.

Fuel tax has nothing to do with encouraging us to use public transport, protecting the planet, or to use our cars sensibly - it's just a tax collection waterhole which is going to dry up unless they change the rules.

[crankedup]

Its not just horses that wear blinkers is it.

This Country has suffered a massive injustice by Goverments over the years with the blinkered policies for short term political gain rather than long term benifit to voters.

This statement is just another example.

[Peter Ward]

corozin said:

Aha... and so we reach the nub of it. Fuel tax has nothing to do with encouraging us to use public transport, protecting the planet, or to use our cars sensibly - it's just a tax collection waterhole which is going to dry up unless they change the rules.

Precisely. They already have a problem from more fuel-efficient cars reducing the tax take, and they're making it worse for themselves by making it increasingly unpleasant to drive. How to make up for it? Another tax.

[dodge]

But this time they might have to work a bit to justify it.. When the Hydrogen revolution finally occurs, they won't have any ecological reason to tax us..

I wonder what will happen to the road safety levels when nobody can hear any of these silent hydrogen cars wafting past..

They'll all be dreaming of the good old days when you could hear a fossil fuel car, BEFORE it crushed you to death.

[victormeldrew]

The crux is the loss in tax revenue. They can't tax hydrogen, can they? Fuel tax is just tax, like any other tax, there is nothing fair or just about it. Fule tax makes a lot of money for the tax man, which will need to be recouped elsewhere. That'll either by by massive road tax increases, some form of tax on movement (toll roads - still wonder why the government in so keen on the M6 toll?) and probably tax on parking too for good measure. Hit you for owning it, moving it and leaving it somewhere.

And they still won't provide any credible alternative.

Feckers.

[gh0st]

Size Nine Elm said:

It would be impossible for me to take public transport to work. There are no bus routes that go from the bedroom, via the kitchen for breakfast, to the study. And they can't manage the stairs...

Git!

[Size Nine Elm]

victormeldrew said:

The crux is the loss in tax revenue. They can't tax hydrogen, can they?

Why not? They've taxed cars, houses, windows, insurance, airport travel, booze, fags, jaffa cakes, petrol, mobile phones, chip fat, life, death, so what would be the problem with hydrogen?

Edited to correct: the only one of the above not explicitly taxed is - jaffa cakes.

>> Edited by Size Nine Elm on Saturday 25th September 10:56

[Fatboy]

Size Nine Elm said:

victormeldrew said: The crux is the loss in tax revenue. They can't tax hydrogen, can they? Why not? They've taxed cars, houses, windows, insurance, airport travel, booze, fags, jaffa cakes, petrol, mobile phones, chip fat, life, death, so what would be the problem with hydrogen? Edited to correct: the only one of the above not explicitly taxed is - jaffa cakes. >> Edited by Size Nine Elm on Saturday 25th September 10:56

I'm sure that will be rectified in time by the current bunch of tax crazed wasters. Or indeed the next bunch of tax crazed wasters...

[v8thunder]

It all falls through when you look at the price of equipping everyone with Big Brother with simply adjusting fuel taxes, which essentially do the same thing.