RE: Support your Local Plod
Friday 28th June 2002
Support your Local Plod
Let's attack the root of our policing problems - crime
Discussion
Interesting musings Ted.
I like the point you make in the Turn the Tables section - in my line of work some of the best IT security experts were hackers once upon a time - why can't the same principal be applied to drivers ? Bit of polishing the rough edges and you could have a very competent driver.
The only thing you don't mention is that in the end these are only statistics, therefore if 0.1% of chases resulted in death back in 1997, then due to increased traffic levels would the same percentage still apply ? It's only numbers after all. Sadly the motor bashing journos and so forth have jumped on the figures and spun them to suit their arguments. Again.
Obvious conclusion based on stats: the standard of police driving has declined, because more people were killed in 2001 than 4 years ago. Bullshit.
If anything I would venture the police are more aware than ever that their standard of driving has to be A1+++, because if it isn't, the mockers will on them like a ton of bricks. I'll also venture that Plod in his panda car receives more driver training now than ever before. Mainly due to some very public accidents and fatalities where the police driver had had little more training than me or the next man.
To me it seems that yet again the police are being made scapegoats, guilty of nothing more than to be able to drive fast legitimately in the right situation.
I like the point you make in the Turn the Tables section - in my line of work some of the best IT security experts were hackers once upon a time - why can't the same principal be applied to drivers ? Bit of polishing the rough edges and you could have a very competent driver.
The only thing you don't mention is that in the end these are only statistics, therefore if 0.1% of chases resulted in death back in 1997, then due to increased traffic levels would the same percentage still apply ? It's only numbers after all. Sadly the motor bashing journos and so forth have jumped on the figures and spun them to suit their arguments. Again.
Obvious conclusion based on stats: the standard of police driving has declined, because more people were killed in 2001 than 4 years ago. Bullshit.
If anything I would venture the police are more aware than ever that their standard of driving has to be A1+++, because if it isn't, the mockers will on them like a ton of bricks. I'll also venture that Plod in his panda car receives more driver training now than ever before. Mainly due to some very public accidents and fatalities where the police driver had had little more training than me or the next man.
To me it seems that yet again the police are being made scapegoats, guilty of nothing more than to be able to drive fast legitimately in the right situation.
I think you're missing the point here Ted. It's only a very small proportion of drivers of Police cars who actually have any advanced training whatsoever. Most just have a regular driving licence.
I don't have access to all of the relevant stats, but just from what I pick up from local news stories, it would appear that the majority of accidents involving Police cars occur where the driver isn't highly trained at all. Many accidents happen when Plod is responding to a 999 call in his/her Panda car. Others happen when an untrained driver has been watching too many episodes of The Sweeney on UK Gold.
Having met and spoken to several properly trained Police drivers, and been taught by the same people who teach them, I would say that they know what they are doing. They will try their best to minimise the risk to themselves, the people they are persuing, and the public. They are very aware of what is going on around them, and they are trained to spot potential dangers that your average motorist wouldn't be able to pick up if you showed them a slow motion replay on video.
The trouble is, most drivers of Police cars aren't trained Police drivers. They're just Joe Average, driving their car too fast for their skills, or the road conditions.
James (uncharacteristically defending some Police officers)
I don't have access to all of the relevant stats, but just from what I pick up from local news stories, it would appear that the majority of accidents involving Police cars occur where the driver isn't highly trained at all. Many accidents happen when Plod is responding to a 999 call in his/her Panda car. Others happen when an untrained driver has been watching too many episodes of The Sweeney on UK Gold.
Having met and spoken to several properly trained Police drivers, and been taught by the same people who teach them, I would say that they know what they are doing. They will try their best to minimise the risk to themselves, the people they are persuing, and the public. They are very aware of what is going on around them, and they are trained to spot potential dangers that your average motorist wouldn't be able to pick up if you showed them a slow motion replay on video.
The trouble is, most drivers of Police cars aren't trained Police drivers. They're just Joe Average, driving their car too fast for their skills, or the road conditions.
James (uncharacteristically defending some Police officers)
Good rant Ted, but the police are in a bit of a cleft stick. Their boss, a namby-pamby politico is the one who has the "down" on cars and drivers as he/they sees the driver as the milch cow of the nation. Were the police to refuse to persecute, and I use that word knowingly, the car driver, they'd themselves be the target of politicos.
RANT MODE ON.....
So the change HAS to be at the root of all our trouble the whinging namby-pamby guardian reading scrotes who pass such laws and regulations. IMHO bring back the birch/borstal/hard-labour, have magistrates courts which deal only with minor offences and birch (hang/chain-gang) the offenders in the courtyard of the magistrates court IMMEDIATELY after the judgement which must take place within 48 hours of the offence. For DUI or scrotism generally (drunk and disorderly, theiving damaging cars, muggings,) etc immediate justice and PUNISHMENT. No namby pamby social service whinger saying that the scrote is an unfortunate because he was born, or had no or bad upbringing etc etc, no holiday homes for scrotes, parents being held legally responsible for the upbringig of the brats etc etc etc
Rant mode off
RANT MODE ON.....
So the change HAS to be at the root of all our trouble the whinging namby-pamby guardian reading scrotes who pass such laws and regulations. IMHO bring back the birch/borstal/hard-labour, have magistrates courts which deal only with minor offences and birch (hang/chain-gang) the offenders in the courtyard of the magistrates court IMMEDIATELY after the judgement which must take place within 48 hours of the offence. For DUI or scrotism generally (drunk and disorderly, theiving damaging cars, muggings,) etc immediate justice and PUNISHMENT. No namby pamby social service whinger saying that the scrote is an unfortunate because he was born, or had no or bad upbringing etc etc, no holiday homes for scrotes, parents being held legally responsible for the upbringig of the brats etc etc etc
Rant mode off
James
I will have to put you right on the impression you have that only a small proportion of Police Drivers are trained to an advanced level.
It used to be only those who applied to work within the Traffic Divisions of the countrys forces that received the Advanced courses.
These days with ever evolving departments and squads where high performance vehicles are routinely used, all those that apply to these sections are put through the advanced course. Some are not up to it. While they are considered suitable for their expertise in a particular field, if they cannot pass the driving side of it, they are not accepted for the job.
All Police response drivers have to undergo basic training.
Panda car drivers are not fully trained but they do have to attend a two week intensive course where they are taught by a Police Instructor on the Police Driving Manual, Road Craft.
They are all taught systemised driving and skidding in a cradle car or skid pan.
They are all taught to drive under blue lights and sirens and practice doing so whilst under heavy scrutiny in live traffic situations.
When Police require someone to stop when they are either in a vehicle or on foot. THE PERSON REQUIRED SO TO DO HAS A CHOICE. The Police do not make that for them. They do not ask these people to drive at high speed to escape
The choice is a very simple one.
Punishments for the sorts of offences that the majority of chases arise from are derisory in the first place.
For TWOC or disqualified driving it is barely worth the visit to the courts for them.
Even ram raid burglars that are captured after many offences over a prolonged period are sentenced to punishments of 12 months youth custody (6months in reality) most of which is served when they are on remand before trial. The fact that they steal vehicles worth 10s' of thousands of pounds and wreck them in the process attracts no extra punishment.
To evade capture and put others and themselves at high risk attracts little or no extra punishment not to do so.
Many of the people that are predisposed to the sort of driving that is targetted in this article, do so even without the presence of a marked or unmarked Police Vehicle in their vicinity.
If Police strategy is to allow these people a free hand if someone unqualified (civilian radio operator)in the ethics and practice of pursuit driving, then the battle against the criminal element will be further strangled. There will be absolutely no deterent to these people not to steal your cars and your property as they know at the first red light they jump, a decision will be made to stop the pursuit.
Driving under pursuit circumstances is exciting. I dont deny that. However it is also terrifying at the same time. The younger in service are at the most risk of being dragged into the thrills of the chase.
Most forces have policies that panda drivers cease the pursuit immediately a more qualified unit is in attendance. They are then directed to take strategic static points to observe and try to deploy mechanical devices to bring the pursuit to a safe conclusion.
All pursuits are issued with a warning by the radio controller. The warning is "No ramming, No blocking and only one attempt to stop" from that point on the pursuit is dictated by the pursued (regardless of what outlaw might tell you)
Most Police officers want to go home after the end of their shift, not end up on a marble slab. They also do not want to see anyone else in that position.
To not pursue someone who has committed crime would open the flood gates to the criminally intent.
How many times have you heard the mother of a young teenage car thief, wailing in front of the TV cameras.
" It was only a stolen car, the Police didn't have to chase him. The Police Killed my son/daughter"
THE DRIVER MADE THE CHOICE
A stolen car is not worth the life of anyone, but those that sit behind the controls have the options before them.
A stolen car will end up with a visit to magistrates court where nothing will happen.
An attempt to evade this procedure occasionally ends up with a visit to the mortuary.
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 28th June 09:59
I will have to put you right on the impression you have that only a small proportion of Police Drivers are trained to an advanced level.
It used to be only those who applied to work within the Traffic Divisions of the countrys forces that received the Advanced courses.
These days with ever evolving departments and squads where high performance vehicles are routinely used, all those that apply to these sections are put through the advanced course. Some are not up to it. While they are considered suitable for their expertise in a particular field, if they cannot pass the driving side of it, they are not accepted for the job.
All Police response drivers have to undergo basic training.
Panda car drivers are not fully trained but they do have to attend a two week intensive course where they are taught by a Police Instructor on the Police Driving Manual, Road Craft.
They are all taught systemised driving and skidding in a cradle car or skid pan.
They are all taught to drive under blue lights and sirens and practice doing so whilst under heavy scrutiny in live traffic situations.
When Police require someone to stop when they are either in a vehicle or on foot. THE PERSON REQUIRED SO TO DO HAS A CHOICE. The Police do not make that for them. They do not ask these people to drive at high speed to escape
The choice is a very simple one.
Punishments for the sorts of offences that the majority of chases arise from are derisory in the first place.
For TWOC or disqualified driving it is barely worth the visit to the courts for them.
Even ram raid burglars that are captured after many offences over a prolonged period are sentenced to punishments of 12 months youth custody (6months in reality) most of which is served when they are on remand before trial. The fact that they steal vehicles worth 10s' of thousands of pounds and wreck them in the process attracts no extra punishment.
To evade capture and put others and themselves at high risk attracts little or no extra punishment not to do so.
Many of the people that are predisposed to the sort of driving that is targetted in this article, do so even without the presence of a marked or unmarked Police Vehicle in their vicinity.
If Police strategy is to allow these people a free hand if someone unqualified (civilian radio operator)in the ethics and practice of pursuit driving, then the battle against the criminal element will be further strangled. There will be absolutely no deterent to these people not to steal your cars and your property as they know at the first red light they jump, a decision will be made to stop the pursuit.
Driving under pursuit circumstances is exciting. I dont deny that. However it is also terrifying at the same time. The younger in service are at the most risk of being dragged into the thrills of the chase.
Most forces have policies that panda drivers cease the pursuit immediately a more qualified unit is in attendance. They are then directed to take strategic static points to observe and try to deploy mechanical devices to bring the pursuit to a safe conclusion.
All pursuits are issued with a warning by the radio controller. The warning is "No ramming, No blocking and only one attempt to stop" from that point on the pursuit is dictated by the pursued (regardless of what outlaw might tell you)
Most Police officers want to go home after the end of their shift, not end up on a marble slab. They also do not want to see anyone else in that position.
To not pursue someone who has committed crime would open the flood gates to the criminally intent.
How many times have you heard the mother of a young teenage car thief, wailing in front of the TV cameras.
" It was only a stolen car, the Police didn't have to chase him. The Police Killed my son/daughter"
THE DRIVER MADE THE CHOICE
A stolen car is not worth the life of anyone, but those that sit behind the controls have the options before them.
A stolen car will end up with a visit to magistrates court where nothing will happen.
An attempt to evade this procedure occasionally ends up with a visit to the mortuary.
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 28th June 09:59
quote:
To not pursue someone who has committed crime would open the flood gates to the criminally intent.
How many times have you heard the mother of a young teenage car thief, wailing in front of the TV cameras.
" It was only a stolen car, the Police didn't have to chase him. The Police Killed my son/daughter"
THE DRIVER MADE THE CHOICE
A stolen car is not worth the life of anyone, but those that sit behind the controls have the options before them.
A stolen car will end up with a visit to magistrates court where nothing will happen.
An attempt to evade this procedure occasionally ends up with a visit to the mortuary.
Well said! What I want to know is, wot happens when someone nicks something that belongs to these people.. do they sit there and just say "aaaaaaah well, its only a ..., we can get an other one.." Do they b
s! They're the first ones to grab the baseball bats and head out for vengance. So sod em - if they nick cars, drive like twats, whatever and get killed then Darwin wins. Game over, no new lives. Lock the buggers up - short sharp shocks then help from SS .... (thats social services, not SS - although, thinking about it...
).Trouble is Madcop, the figures speak for themselves, the rise in fatal accidents involving Police drivers on blue light runs would be more easily explained were fewer of you trained to drive to advanced levels, If as you suggest more drivers are now trained to do this kind of highly dangerous driving, the training must leave alot to be desired, or the levels of fatal accidents would be dropping. Brings into focus some of the rather lofty comments you have passed on other discussions on this site.
These accidents are avoidable, and the police are to blame for them, there is no way in which you can just pass responsibility on to the people you are chasing. God the cops moan when the law is turned on them.
These accidents are avoidable, and the police are to blame for them, there is no way in which you can just pass responsibility on to the people you are chasing. God the cops moan when the law is turned on them.
From someone who I assume ( To assume is not good policy) has never worked within this arena, been in a chase/pursuit ( I would hope to think not ) I think that sort of post is wholly unqualified.
1 Have you ever been through an advanced driving course?
2. Have you any basis for better training that you could bestow us with. It would be greatfully accepted?
3. In some respects I am qualified to make lofty comments. Are you?
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 28th June 10:44
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 28th June 10:45
1 Have you ever been through an advanced driving course?
2. Have you any basis for better training that you could bestow us with. It would be greatfully accepted?
3. In some respects I am qualified to make lofty comments. Are you?
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 28th June 10:44
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 28th June 10:45
Excellent points made there Madcop! Incidently I watched a police chase happen right outside my house last night. 7 Police cars and a Police helicopter pursuing some crappy arsed Vauxhall Astra with some hooligans in it.
Looks like the Police had worked their magic on the Astras tyres and were going to end the pursuit. The thing that struck me was just how professionally and calmly the Police were pursuing the vehicle. Keeping their distance and just waiting for the guy to realise he wasn't going to get away.
I have the utmost respect for the Police drivers and they have a hard enough time with their job, let alone putting up with public and media criticism. Frankly if a person who doesn't value another persons property decides to become one with a wall or lamp-post then they are doing us a favour.
Call it natural selection as it were.
>> Edited by adeewuff on Friday 28th June 11:25
Looks like the Police had worked their magic on the Astras tyres and were going to end the pursuit. The thing that struck me was just how professionally and calmly the Police were pursuing the vehicle. Keeping their distance and just waiting for the guy to realise he wasn't going to get away.
I have the utmost respect for the Police drivers and they have a hard enough time with their job, let alone putting up with public and media criticism. Frankly if a person who doesn't value another persons property decides to become one with a wall or lamp-post then they are doing us a favour.
Call it natural selection as it were.
>> Edited by adeewuff on Friday 28th June 11:25
I would suggest the increase in the figures is due to the increase in TWOC, joyriding, etc, leading to more pursuits. The number of fatalities is quoted as an absolute figure - how does that compare with increases in the underlying number of pursuits?
I've noticed far more burnt out cars around in the last few years, so that would indicate there are far more scrotes getting involved. Its a pity they know how to get out of the cars before they torch them.
I've noticed far more burnt out cars around in the last few years, so that would indicate there are far more scrotes getting involved. Its a pity they know how to get out of the cars before they torch them.
Well said Madcop. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that the scrote behind the wheel has a choice to stop or not. If they run then the sentence should automatically be doubled for putting the public in danger. I don't think that stingers are used enough (not the spiked kind but the missile version!! Blow the car up with them in it!) Unfortunately you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs. For the law to work you have to expect casualties because of the attitudes of the criminals who will do anything to not get caught and if you don't try and stop them then you encourage more crime. I am actually siding with the police as they get a bad deal whatever they do in this situation. Chase and kill bystanders - Get hung drawn and quatered by the press and public. Let them get away - Get hung drawn and quatered by the press and public. It's a no win situation for them.
quote:
the increase in TWOC
Thats exactly the problem I mentioned earlier, it's NOT "taking without consent" its f
g THEFT!!!! Everyone has got so damned PC and believes this pinko rot that THEFT is now just taking???? WRONG!!! pinch a penny it's theft and thus a bank hold-up is TWOC????
AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!
This kind of media driven propaganda aimed at the uninformed, hate-hungry, uproar-happy public sickens me. For anyone with even a hint of intelligence it should be bloody obvious that this is purely the media spinning 'statistics' to make a story out of nothing.
They care not of the consequences and inevitable backlash on the hardworking honest police officer (who is, at the end of the day, doing his job), nor do they give a shit about the basic moral problem with wrongly criticizing the police force with dubiously presented statistics.
It is pure, simple sensationalism that I am disappointed that a few of you have been caught up in.
Madcop, I have the utmost respect for you and the guys out there trying to stop these scroats (i.e. the real criminals) and I am angered that any kind of criticism can be made of your skills and duty by the two faced, bottom of barrel scraping conscienceless media.
All in all well said Ted and well said MadCop!
>> Edited by spandexx on Friday 28th June 13:11
They care not of the consequences and inevitable backlash on the hardworking honest police officer (who is, at the end of the day, doing his job), nor do they give a shit about the basic moral problem with wrongly criticizing the police force with dubiously presented statistics.
It is pure, simple sensationalism that I am disappointed that a few of you have been caught up in.
Madcop, I have the utmost respect for you and the guys out there trying to stop these scroats (i.e. the real criminals) and I am angered that any kind of criticism can be made of your skills and duty by the two faced, bottom of barrel scraping conscienceless media.
All in all well said Ted and well said MadCop!
>> Edited by spandexx on Friday 28th June 13:11
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