RE: London's charge gets painful
Tuesday 10th May 2005
Payment scheme stamped onAdministrators of London's controversial congestion charging scheme have stamped on a wheeze that aims to take the pain out of paying it, at the same time tweaking scheme in a bid to make its expansion less onerous for local residents.
London's charge gets painful
TfL stamps on loophole as sweetener is sniffed at
Payment scheme stamped on
Wizard wheeze
Businessman Miguel Camacho set up a car club whose members became part of an officially registered business fleet. For a tenner a month, the club pays the fee in monthly blocks, which means members don't need to remember to pay the toll each time they cross the boundary, thus risking a £100 fine.
But scheme administrator TfL has told the club, Fivepounds.co.uk, that the rules had changed. Instead, fleet organisers need to:
- Produce the V5 for each car in the club, which adds hugely to the workload
- Provide insurance certificates for each vehicle, with the aim of proving that they were insured for business use only.
Edmund King of the RAC Foundation said, "It is totally wrong for TfL to try to stop this," while the LibDems called Camacho's scheme innovative, saying that TfL should welcome it.
TfL's response was that its fleet scheme was aimed at helping business users only.
Easing the pain
Meanwhile, TfL has mooted pulling the congestion charge end time forward by half-an-hour to 6pm, and setting up a buffer zone for those living just outside the charging area, which gives a 90 per cent discount on the toll. Both changes apparently depend on the zone's expansion into west London, according to the Evening Standard.
The upshot is that some 20,000 Earl's Court, West Brompton and Shepherd's Bush residents will end up paying less to enter the zone. Most traders' reactions were lukewarm, saying it makes little difference.
The move is London Mayor Ken Livingstone's sweetener for Londoners in a bid to get them to accept the bitter pill of congestion charge zone expansion.
Those living outside London shouldn't shrug and say they don't care, as congestion charging is on a roll, and looks likely to be implemented more widely. It could come to you.
Discussion
<sigh> Yet another money making scheme comes to light.
Why oh why do we take this crap ?
Working in the city and getting around is easier now the Congestion charge is inplace, but this is just proof that its just another source of revenue generation. Ive been watching Holborn Viaduct fo rthe last 6 years .. its been covered in scaffholding and aint been finished. You would have thought that TfL would have sorted it and all the other problems in the City Network by now.
Why oh why do we take this crap ?
Working in the city and getting around is easier now the Congestion charge is inplace, but this is just proof that its just another source of revenue generation. Ive been watching Holborn Viaduct fo rthe last 6 years .. its been covered in scaffholding and aint been finished. You would have thought that TfL would have sorted it and all the other problems in the City Network by now.
DJFish said:
They should call their bluff and drown the buggers in paperwork.
I'd vote for that!
Trouble is the admin centre in Coventry iirc is so woefully inefficient and bureaucratic that the only people who might benefit are the baillifs they would send out to claim property on incorrectly issued penalty notices.
Other thought, fivepounds.co.uk should go through the CC enabling legislation with a fine tooth comb to see if TfL are outside their authority on this one.
cotty said:sounds like it doesnt it.
So let me get this straight a scheme is set up that pays the congestion charge of the people subscribed so they dont get fined and the TfL are complaining because they wont be able to fine them.
Im Glad I use the BIke these days ....
2 Fingers to TfL
cotty said:
So let me get this straight a scheme is set up that pays the congestion charge of the people subscribed so they dont get fined and the TfL are complaining because they wont be able to fine them.
Zaxctly!!! Why oh why is the CC the only frickin company that don't use Direct Debit! why should they exist as an "Entrapment" type system! I'm bloody sick of been fined when I've forgotten to pay because at the time of entering the CC zone I was driving and couldn't use my mobile to SMS the payment!
the congestion charge doesnt make hardly any money thats the galling thing it's so ineffeciant an expensive it just about covers its own running costs if the mayor had planned it better rather then to get it out as soon as possible a much effcient system could have been installed which means the price wouldnt be going up to 8 quid or whatever an taxpayers would'nt have to pay the company running it a 30 mil subsidy to cover that fact that it wasnt making as much money as invisaged
>> Edited by peter450 on Tuesday 10th May 18:44
>> Edited by peter450 on Tuesday 10th May 18:44
Charger500 said:
I'm bloody sick of been fined when I've forgotten to pay because at the time of entering the CC zone I was driving and couldn't use my mobile to SMS the payment!
I'm not sure if that was tongue in cheek but as much as I disagree with the charge thats a pretty poor excuse. You can pay the standard rate of £5 upto 10am on the day of travel. Its an extra £5 if you pay between 10am and midnight on day of travel. So you have plenty of time to avoid the £100 fine.
They wouldnt do Direct Debit becasue its more admin for them. TFL would have to work out how many times in a month you have been in the zone and then charge you accordingly, plus all the extra paperwork required for setting up DD's. Its much easier for them with the onus on us to make the payment. Plus they wouldnt get as much in fines!
jamiet said:
I'm not sure if that was tongue in cheek but as much as I disagree with the charge thats a pretty poor excuse. You can pay the standard rate of £5 upto 10am on the day of travel. Its an extra £5 if you pay between 10am and midnight on day of travel. So you have plenty of time to avoid the £100 fine.
I assume you mean 10PM
cotty said:
So let me get this straight a scheme is set up that pays the congestion charge of the people subscribed so they dont get fined and the TfL are complaining because they wont be able to fine them.
Basically, yes.
TfL make more from fining people than they do from the people who pay on time, hence the structure of the system to ensure as many people are fined as possible.
I have incurred the Congestion Charge once. I left London at just about 1830 and arrived home in Manchester at 2220. I called TfL to see if I needed to pay the charge as I had crossed the line at almost exactly 1830 so there could be enough difference in our respective clocks to mean I could get it wrong.
Amazingly, TfL replied that they were unable to tell me whether I needed to pay. So, I asked if they could let me know and then I would pay them. They said this would take over a week and they would then fine me if I had needed to pay!
I replied that the situation seemed ridiculous and asked what if I paid my fiver now, then after a week or so they realised I hadn't needed to pay it. They informed me that the administration charge for giving a refund was more then a fiver so I would lose out if I tried to claim my money back. Plus, they wouldn't proactively tell me I should have paid, they'd just take my money.
I was flabbergasted and the DfT guy was obviously embarassed. So, I said I guess I'll just have to pay my fiver, at which point he told me I owed ten pounds because it was past 2200.
I pointed out that I had driven straight from London to Manchester and called them when I got back, but no go, so I had to pay my ten pounds.
The whole scheme is a massive fraud on the public and forcing this innovative business to operate with the V5s is patently ridiculous and meant to stop people paying on time. Combine this with people who don't know how the system works (like the 2200 time limit) like me who has only ever driven into London once and you have a licence to print money.
These people disgust me and it disgusts me even more that not only to our government allow this, they are encouraging it to spread.
A very angry roadsweeper.
I used to have an office in London. I wasn't going to pay the Con Tax, so I used the train - at £40 a day from Oxford. That was somewhere beyond utterly unacceptable cack, so I started riding the bike. Then, two weeks before the Con Tax was imposed, the wardens ticketed about 50 bikes in Islington parked where we'd always parked. They said they'd decided it was "green space" and bikes shouldn't park there. So we all parked anywhere we could - and got tickets for that too.
Now, I've shut the London office and just work from Oxford - the grief caused by the congestion charge, nazi parking and evil wardens ticketing any motorcycle that was parked anywhere made it too much like hell.
Now, I've shut the London office and just work from Oxford - the grief caused by the congestion charge, nazi parking and evil wardens ticketing any motorcycle that was parked anywhere made it too much like hell.
As many have said, several aspects of the CC system are extremely unfair and are designed specifically to maximise profit with total disregard for the motorist.
Firstly, there is no justification for demanding payment on the same day in a system as huge and automated as this.
Secondly, the system of charging itself is designed to allow as much possibility for the motorist to forget as possible. Why can't individuals register an with the CC to automatically debit their accounts on each use? Claims that it would cost more to run a system like this are simply rubbish - it would actually cost less.
Thirdly, the fact that CC are "unable" to tell if you need to pay the charge or not on the same day. This, combined with the threat of increased charges for not paying on the same day before 10pm, means that many people will pay the CC when they don't need to, just to be sure. Who ever heard of a company which charges you for a service but can't tell you if they provided it!?
Of course, the CC is not the only system designed to scam as much money as possible out of innocent motorists - parking meters have long had confusing and misleading instructions and restrictions, and recently there was a report of plans for automated parking fines being applied to anyone staying too long in a space.
This is very similar to the CC - you have to pay up front before the use of the service is confirmed (eg you have to pay for 2 hours even though you think you will take only 1, just in case), and if you overstay you will be fined a massive and unfair amount. The same technology used to implement automated fines could instead be used to automatically charge (per minute) for the parking, but of course that would mean no fines, and the companies running these system want as many fines as possible.
The company mentioned in the article wasn't doing anything particularly innovative, it was just taking a (small) portion of the money extorted from the motorist for itself, at the expense of the TfL. TfL is greedy and wants the fruits of its efforts all to itself, so is trying to shut the company down. Business as usual.
Firstly, there is no justification for demanding payment on the same day in a system as huge and automated as this.
Secondly, the system of charging itself is designed to allow as much possibility for the motorist to forget as possible. Why can't individuals register an with the CC to automatically debit their accounts on each use? Claims that it would cost more to run a system like this are simply rubbish - it would actually cost less.
Thirdly, the fact that CC are "unable" to tell if you need to pay the charge or not on the same day. This, combined with the threat of increased charges for not paying on the same day before 10pm, means that many people will pay the CC when they don't need to, just to be sure. Who ever heard of a company which charges you for a service but can't tell you if they provided it!?
Of course, the CC is not the only system designed to scam as much money as possible out of innocent motorists - parking meters have long had confusing and misleading instructions and restrictions, and recently there was a report of plans for automated parking fines being applied to anyone staying too long in a space.
This is very similar to the CC - you have to pay up front before the use of the service is confirmed (eg you have to pay for 2 hours even though you think you will take only 1, just in case), and if you overstay you will be fined a massive and unfair amount. The same technology used to implement automated fines could instead be used to automatically charge (per minute) for the parking, but of course that would mean no fines, and the companies running these system want as many fines as possible.
The company mentioned in the article wasn't doing anything particularly innovative, it was just taking a (small) portion of the money extorted from the motorist for itself, at the expense of the TfL. TfL is greedy and wants the fruits of its efforts all to itself, so is trying to shut the company down. Business as usual.
alexf said:
Why can't individuals register an with the CC to automatically debit their accounts on each use? Claims that it would cost more to run a system like this are simply rubbish - it would actually cost less.
Thirdly, the fact that CC are "unable" to tell if you need to pay the charge or not on the same day. This, combined with the threat of increased charges for not paying on the same day before 10pm, means that many people will pay the CC when they don't need to, just to be sure. Who ever heard of a company which charges you for a service but can't tell you if they provided it!?
SPECS cameras can not only tell when you speed by, but also how fast, work out if it was above the limit, and send you a bill automatically. So, yes, CONgestion sCameras should be able to too.
alexf said:
Of course, the CC is not the only system designed to scam as much money as possible out of innocent motorists - parking meters have long..........
Weren't parking meters introduced to raise funds to build multi-storey car parks?
Decades ago?
So why are we still having to park on the road?
And why are we still being taxed by parking meters?
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