terrorism,... b' Jasus!
Discussion
The Good Friday agreement is about to go down the pan.
Sinn Fein has been photocopying sensitive documents in Stormont, to give to the IRA. The photocopied documents contained the names and addresses of security forces and prison officers.
Ian Paisley (DUP) has pulled his two guys from the parliament and Trimble (UUP) is under pressure to do so to.
This is as close to an excretia / fan interface that Northern Ireland has come in recent years.
What should Tony Bliar do? Should he,...
1. Temporarily suspend the Good Friday agreement,
2. Collapse the Good Friday agreement,
3. Eject Sinn Fein from the parliament,
4. Spout righteous drivel and do nothing?
I hope not to encourage any kind of sectarian arguement but am keen to know what y'all think, bearing in mind the deluge of anti terrorist rhetoric coming from Blair of late.
Sinn Fein has been photocopying sensitive documents in Stormont, to give to the IRA. The photocopied documents contained the names and addresses of security forces and prison officers.
Ian Paisley (DUP) has pulled his two guys from the parliament and Trimble (UUP) is under pressure to do so to.
This is as close to an excretia / fan interface that Northern Ireland has come in recent years.
What should Tony Bliar do? Should he,...
1. Temporarily suspend the Good Friday agreement,
2. Collapse the Good Friday agreement,
3. Eject Sinn Fein from the parliament,
4. Spout righteous drivel and do nothing?
I hope not to encourage any kind of sectarian arguement but am keen to know what y'all think, bearing in mind the deluge of anti terrorist rhetoric coming from Blair of late.
temporary suspension would be my choice - allows cooling off whilst an investigation takes place into what was happening and who knew what.
Leaving aside my views on the IRA - despite the pain of seeing convicted killers back on the streets - violence on the mainland has been suspended
it will take far longer to rebuild trust north & south of the border - and even longer for the sectarians to stop thinking tribally
but to get to the sunny uplands of peace - we shouldn't be afraid to take a step back and reassess what is happening
Leaving aside my views on the IRA - despite the pain of seeing convicted killers back on the streets - violence on the mainland has been suspended
it will take far longer to rebuild trust north & south of the border - and even longer for the sectarians to stop thinking tribally
but to get to the sunny uplands of peace - we shouldn't be afraid to take a step back and reassess what is happening
My worry is that by doing number 1, it will allow him to do number 4.
Just suspending the agreement does not grasp the nettle, so to speak. I do agree with Gargamels general sentiment that there has been major progress made recently and to slide backwards into chaos would be a disaster.
After the Fark (sp?) business, the Columbian drugs thing and now this, I find myself agreeing with Mondeoman too.
Just suspending the agreement does not grasp the nettle, so to speak. I do agree with Gargamels general sentiment that there has been major progress made recently and to slide backwards into chaos would be a disaster.
After the Fark (sp?) business, the Columbian drugs thing and now this, I find myself agreeing with Mondeoman too.
Just to wade in then
This farc thing - training the colombians in terrorist/coward tactics.
Once the IRA were freedom fighters who wanted a united Irelend .....
Now they have shown themselves to be basically a small group of experienced mercenaries for hire.
Surely the political game has been overtaken, they are not fighting for a free ireland - they just like blowing shit up..
I would gladly see ireland re united - because I have no personal investment in anything Northern or Southern
BUT ... It would have to be on the basis that all IRA members move to columbia or Iraq or any Axis of evil power
This farc thing - training the colombians in terrorist/coward tactics.
Once the IRA were freedom fighters who wanted a united Irelend .....
Now they have shown themselves to be basically a small group of experienced mercenaries for hire.
Surely the political game has been overtaken, they are not fighting for a free ireland - they just like blowing shit up..
I would gladly see ireland re united - because I have no personal investment in anything Northern or Southern
BUT ... It would have to be on the basis that all IRA members move to columbia or Iraq or any Axis of evil power
None of the above in my opinion, but some thoughts.
"I hope not to encourage any kind of sectarian arguement but am keen to know what y'all think, bearing in mind the deluge of anti terrorist rhetoric coming from Blair of late."
"Anti terrorist rhetoric", depends on your point of view, in certain parts of the world TB is considered a terrorist, and you don't have to leave England to come across that point of view. 'Sectarianism' is the PC way to hide Human rights violations and is banded about far too easily without any proper understanding of what it means.
Does it all come back to the democratic/human right to be the same and different, i.e. I want my right to be different and I also demand my right to be the same as everybody else by being treated equal. Is a fundamental concept of one of the building blocks of our western society just too ridiculous to work as witnessed by turmoil all over the world?
We all have opinions on most things that cross our horizons, and most things hit our horizons as spin / journalistic endeavour, (all enthusiastically discussed on this site in recent months) take for example some things on this recent mess...
Who let a SF worker have access to the most sensitive areas of the Northern Ireland office, HELLO!
The security force tapped Gerry Adams car around the time of the Good Friday agreement discussions, fact.
Did they really need 100 officers plus to 'recover' the material, political bias in the NIPS, surely not.
The computer components 'recovered' have already been returned.
The basic stance of the main parties.
Ian and Co. (DUP) have already run for the hills, saying nothing new just running for the hills and muttering, "it's our ball...."
UUP, basically trying to make TB squirm and get him to collapse it by issuing ultimatums, the only dirty work TB is willing to do is GB, and Davey boy is no GB. He is easily recognised as being a UUP realist by the national community, bear that in mind next time you hear him speak, then consider the non-realist.
SDLP, the eternal voice of reason (humorous historical note: they were going to call themselves the Labour & Social Democratic Party until the abbreviation was pointed out - it was the late 60's after all), have said they "will wait until there is something proven before we rush to judgement and decide anything" (another note; why do you think a party called the Social Democratic and Labour Party has predominantly national support)
SF - along with a lot of rhetoric - "yes it's a problem but not a showstopper, we don't want to go back to the violence" as in 'get real' this is part of life up here. The eternally laughed at party, with more than sufficient reason in a lot of instances.
Listen to who is staying positive, who is being negative, who is holier than thou, who is being self-righteous; and if you can figure all that out….
Finally, given a choice between phone tappings/spying over cold blooded murder, (both choices equally carried out by all sides over the years) which option would you choose? and why?
"I hope not to encourage any kind of sectarian arguement but am keen to know what y'all think, bearing in mind the deluge of anti terrorist rhetoric coming from Blair of late."
"Anti terrorist rhetoric", depends on your point of view, in certain parts of the world TB is considered a terrorist, and you don't have to leave England to come across that point of view. 'Sectarianism' is the PC way to hide Human rights violations and is banded about far too easily without any proper understanding of what it means.
Does it all come back to the democratic/human right to be the same and different, i.e. I want my right to be different and I also demand my right to be the same as everybody else by being treated equal. Is a fundamental concept of one of the building blocks of our western society just too ridiculous to work as witnessed by turmoil all over the world?
We all have opinions on most things that cross our horizons, and most things hit our horizons as spin / journalistic endeavour, (all enthusiastically discussed on this site in recent months) take for example some things on this recent mess...
Who let a SF worker have access to the most sensitive areas of the Northern Ireland office, HELLO!
The security force tapped Gerry Adams car around the time of the Good Friday agreement discussions, fact.
Did they really need 100 officers plus to 'recover' the material, political bias in the NIPS, surely not.
The computer components 'recovered' have already been returned.
The basic stance of the main parties.
Ian and Co. (DUP) have already run for the hills, saying nothing new just running for the hills and muttering, "it's our ball...."
UUP, basically trying to make TB squirm and get him to collapse it by issuing ultimatums, the only dirty work TB is willing to do is GB, and Davey boy is no GB. He is easily recognised as being a UUP realist by the national community, bear that in mind next time you hear him speak, then consider the non-realist.
SDLP, the eternal voice of reason (humorous historical note: they were going to call themselves the Labour & Social Democratic Party until the abbreviation was pointed out - it was the late 60's after all), have said they "will wait until there is something proven before we rush to judgement and decide anything" (another note; why do you think a party called the Social Democratic and Labour Party has predominantly national support)
SF - along with a lot of rhetoric - "yes it's a problem but not a showstopper, we don't want to go back to the violence" as in 'get real' this is part of life up here. The eternally laughed at party, with more than sufficient reason in a lot of instances.
Listen to who is staying positive, who is being negative, who is holier than thou, who is being self-righteous; and if you can figure all that out….
Finally, given a choice between phone tappings/spying over cold blooded murder, (both choices equally carried out by all sides over the years) which option would you choose? and why?
Hooooo boy, this is one BIG sticky subject.
I've done lots of business in NI in the past, and my uncle lived there for many years. I also have some Irish blood in me, so it's a difficult subject to broach without losing perspective VERY quickly.
I used to spend lots of time thinking about all the shades and nuances and reasons. You know the stuff, King James, King William, plantation, apprentice boys, oppresion, IRA version 1(the michael Collins era), the division of Ireland and the creation of Eire, religous apartheid, the 1960's, Bernadette Devlin, the role of the Catholic Church, IRA version 2 (The Martin Mcguiness et al era) terrorist attrocities on both sides, the sectarian divide, the sheer lawlessness of the place (which you simply cannot begin to comprehend if you're a mainlander) the gangsters and organised crime, terrorist protection rackets, police malpractice, army murder squads, and above all the sheer hatred and ingrained mistrust/fear that each community has for the other.
When you try to make sense of it all it just overwhelmes you. Whenever you think you've made a point there will be 100 "Yeah buts" to contend it.
In the end, perhaps somewhat oversimplistically I came to the following position.
1, NI is currently part of the UK 'cos a majority of it's people want it to be that way. (If it wasn't then I think HMG would have palmed it off to Eire yonks ago)
2, Neither "side" (Catholics or Protestants) has covered itself in glory over the last 40 years.
3, HMG is in an impossible position. It needs to maintain the rule of law but in doing so leaves itself open to attack from all sides (reme,ber it was the Catholic community that asked the then Home secretary - Roy Hattersly - to send the army in to protect them)
4, Bigotry will only stop when the communities cease to fear each other - that means getting the terrorists out of the politics, out of the communities and out of action completely!
5, Point 4 includes stopping the blackmail, drug running, punishment beatings, protection rackets, petrol bombings, and executions that STILL go on every day in NI (despite the relative peace here on the mainland)
6, I hated seeing all the terrorists let out of jail, but if it built bridges of trust and helped create a foundation for peace then so be it.
7, ANY party that uses the democratic machinery to further it's terrorist activities should be banned, stamped on, locked up.
8, I don't think BLIAR orchestrated this latest scandal. He's desperate for a Nobel PP, and this breakdown does his chances no good at all!
9, IF the evidence is ajudged by the courts to be genuine then rule 7 must apply.
10, Peace is not peace until everyone involved wants it, believes in it and works for it. Anything less than that is merely a pause in the bloodshed for the people of NI and a grand illusion for the rest of us.
My vote?
Suspend it for a week. Check the evidence independantly. If it's genuine, kick Sinn Fein out immediately and reinstate the executive without them (SF don't represent all catholics, the SDLP does too)
The have new elections as soon as convenient, with SF only able to take part if there is wholesale PUBLIC disarmament by the IRA beforehand.
Sorry it went on a bit.
Hope I haven't offended anyone
Andy 400se
I've done lots of business in NI in the past, and my uncle lived there for many years. I also have some Irish blood in me, so it's a difficult subject to broach without losing perspective VERY quickly.
I used to spend lots of time thinking about all the shades and nuances and reasons. You know the stuff, King James, King William, plantation, apprentice boys, oppresion, IRA version 1(the michael Collins era), the division of Ireland and the creation of Eire, religous apartheid, the 1960's, Bernadette Devlin, the role of the Catholic Church, IRA version 2 (The Martin Mcguiness et al era) terrorist attrocities on both sides, the sectarian divide, the sheer lawlessness of the place (which you simply cannot begin to comprehend if you're a mainlander) the gangsters and organised crime, terrorist protection rackets, police malpractice, army murder squads, and above all the sheer hatred and ingrained mistrust/fear that each community has for the other.
When you try to make sense of it all it just overwhelmes you. Whenever you think you've made a point there will be 100 "Yeah buts" to contend it.
In the end, perhaps somewhat oversimplistically I came to the following position.
1, NI is currently part of the UK 'cos a majority of it's people want it to be that way. (If it wasn't then I think HMG would have palmed it off to Eire yonks ago)
2, Neither "side" (Catholics or Protestants) has covered itself in glory over the last 40 years.
3, HMG is in an impossible position. It needs to maintain the rule of law but in doing so leaves itself open to attack from all sides (reme,ber it was the Catholic community that asked the then Home secretary - Roy Hattersly - to send the army in to protect them)
4, Bigotry will only stop when the communities cease to fear each other - that means getting the terrorists out of the politics, out of the communities and out of action completely!
5, Point 4 includes stopping the blackmail, drug running, punishment beatings, protection rackets, petrol bombings, and executions that STILL go on every day in NI (despite the relative peace here on the mainland)
6, I hated seeing all the terrorists let out of jail, but if it built bridges of trust and helped create a foundation for peace then so be it.
7, ANY party that uses the democratic machinery to further it's terrorist activities should be banned, stamped on, locked up.
8, I don't think BLIAR orchestrated this latest scandal. He's desperate for a Nobel PP, and this breakdown does his chances no good at all!
9, IF the evidence is ajudged by the courts to be genuine then rule 7 must apply.
10, Peace is not peace until everyone involved wants it, believes in it and works for it. Anything less than that is merely a pause in the bloodshed for the people of NI and a grand illusion for the rest of us.
My vote?
Suspend it for a week. Check the evidence independantly. If it's genuine, kick Sinn Fein out immediately and reinstate the executive without them (SF don't represent all catholics, the SDLP does too)
The have new elections as soon as convenient, with SF only able to take part if there is wholesale PUBLIC disarmament by the IRA beforehand.
Sorry it went on a bit.
Hope I haven't offended anyone
Andy 400se
IMHO if Sinn Fein is not allowed to take part in the Irish Government why the F**K are we allowing them (or any Unionist terrorist either for that matter) take any part in NI politics??????????
I was involved in NI in the late 60s and my/our view was then very simplistic, too simplistic. But terrorists deserve only the sharp end of a rifle no matter what couleur they may be. Giving in to them will cause bloodshed and violence. (see the so-called peacekeeper (?) Arafat, a convicted murderer and terrorist!) If you have an infected finger you use antiseptics, If you have an infected province you use anti-terrorist measures. No other part of GB would put up with 35 years of WAR without going in and stamping on them VERY HARD!
I have NO simple answer to the problem but I do hope that the idiots on both sides, Adams and Paisley would get together in a dark cellar both with loaded shot guns and sort it out between themselves instead of killing thousands of innocents, especially the peacekeeping forces in blue, olivedrab or whatever....
I was involved in NI in the late 60s and my/our view was then very simplistic, too simplistic. But terrorists deserve only the sharp end of a rifle no matter what couleur they may be. Giving in to them will cause bloodshed and violence. (see the so-called peacekeeper (?) Arafat, a convicted murderer and terrorist!) If you have an infected finger you use antiseptics, If you have an infected province you use anti-terrorist measures. No other part of GB would put up with 35 years of WAR without going in and stamping on them VERY HARD!
I have NO simple answer to the problem but I do hope that the idiots on both sides, Adams and Paisley would get together in a dark cellar both with loaded shot guns and sort it out between themselves instead of killing thousands of innocents, especially the peacekeeping forces in blue, olivedrab or whatever....
Melting pots, eh?
Do they or don't they work, or does it vary? I never had a propensity to firebomb a catholic and indeed very Irish neighbour some years ago; indeed, I recall his drinking exploits were the stuff of much rib tickling and local legend. And that's despite my religious proclivity which yearns more to the observation of The Black Mass than more mainstream forms of ritual allegience.
As an old Uni mate of mine once proclaimed, rather the worse (better?) for ware [I think a number of bouteilles de chien were involved], "all religion is b*ll*cks" to which marvellously simplistic rationale I think the more secular citizenry of the west, in the main, supports.
Honestly, imagine actually killing because you think an alter should have a bit of Mr.T's castaway trincketry around it rather than forks on the pews with which to impale oneself during evensong?
There is of course the republican argument but as the proposer of this thread intoned at the start, I'd better keep my opinions on that off line to avoid an unseemly rumpus.
Do they or don't they work, or does it vary? I never had a propensity to firebomb a catholic and indeed very Irish neighbour some years ago; indeed, I recall his drinking exploits were the stuff of much rib tickling and local legend. And that's despite my religious proclivity which yearns more to the observation of The Black Mass than more mainstream forms of ritual allegience.
As an old Uni mate of mine once proclaimed, rather the worse (better?) for ware [I think a number of bouteilles de chien were involved], "all religion is b*ll*cks" to which marvellously simplistic rationale I think the more secular citizenry of the west, in the main, supports.
Honestly, imagine actually killing because you think an alter should have a bit of Mr.T's castaway trincketry around it rather than forks on the pews with which to impale oneself during evensong?
There is of course the republican argument but as the proposer of this thread intoned at the start, I'd better keep my opinions on that off line to avoid an unseemly rumpus.
quote:I refer the honorable gentleman to my previously propounded theory: "Melting Pot, my arse..."
Melting pots, eh?
Do they or don't they work, or does it vary?
I don't have any thoughts or answers on this matter other than that, but when I started digging I was immediately struck by two things:
1) The catholics have had a raw deal through the years in this arena which for me puts some of the IRA activities of the past into a new light.
2) Holy crap it's complicated.
I think Andy's on the ball with this one though.. I'm gonna quietly step back now....
Indeedy Carzee,...
It is tricky arguement to articulate without stepping on all sorts of toes, but heres some more thoughts on the matter in no particular order.
Catholics in Ireland have indeed suffered from all kinds of injustices. This goes back as far as you care to remember. Recently, however, in an attempt to stop the fighting, all sides have agreed to put the weapons down and try to live in peace. In order to do this, trust is essential. This trust has been broken.
The Ulster loyalists have been dragged kicking and screaming to the table with Sinn Fein. This is the work of David Trimble. He is, in my opinion, a brave man. He gets it in the neck from all sides but sticks at it for the greater good. If he fails and the less extreme loyalists walk away,.. shit / fan.
If Sinn Fein walk or are pushed, will the IRA dig up all their guns & semtex again?... shit / fan.
Many believe that it is only a matter of time until the catholic population matches and then outnumbers the protestant population. When this happens, Ireland will be reunited without a word of protest from the government on the mainland.
Democracy, dont you know and who can argue with that,................
One sides terrorist is the other sides freedom fighter.
Most families in Ireland are not either poor downtrodden catholics or wealthy landowning protestants. Most have mixed blood to some degree.
The melting pot thing works well in the majority of circumstances. People work and play side by side without giving sectarianism a second thought,...
but, most Irish are able to tell which 'foot you kick with' in a matter of minutes.
'so which school did you go to,...'
It is tricky arguement to articulate without stepping on all sorts of toes, but heres some more thoughts on the matter in no particular order.
Catholics in Ireland have indeed suffered from all kinds of injustices. This goes back as far as you care to remember. Recently, however, in an attempt to stop the fighting, all sides have agreed to put the weapons down and try to live in peace. In order to do this, trust is essential. This trust has been broken.
The Ulster loyalists have been dragged kicking and screaming to the table with Sinn Fein. This is the work of David Trimble. He is, in my opinion, a brave man. He gets it in the neck from all sides but sticks at it for the greater good. If he fails and the less extreme loyalists walk away,.. shit / fan.
If Sinn Fein walk or are pushed, will the IRA dig up all their guns & semtex again?... shit / fan.
Many believe that it is only a matter of time until the catholic population matches and then outnumbers the protestant population. When this happens, Ireland will be reunited without a word of protest from the government on the mainland.
Democracy, dont you know and who can argue with that,................
One sides terrorist is the other sides freedom fighter.
Most families in Ireland are not either poor downtrodden catholics or wealthy landowning protestants. Most have mixed blood to some degree.
The melting pot thing works well in the majority of circumstances. People work and play side by side without giving sectarianism a second thought,...
but, most Irish are able to tell which 'foot you kick with' in a matter of minutes.
'so which school did you go to,...'
Hey Andy, I’m impressed. I too spend some time churning these things – historical and current – over in my head. Some things strike me as odd….
King James, the defeated catholic king at the battle of the Boyne was English.
King Billy, the victor and modern day Ulster icon was Protestant Dutch - orange is the colour after all.
The majority of Protestants in NI and descendants of Scottish Presbyterians, if memory serves the Scottish have a long history of wanting to be part of England!
Irish Men are the biggest killers of Irish Men, by a factor of more than 2-1 in the last century alone.
Members of IRA version 1, “the old IRA”, receive a separate additional pension from the Irish state, not many of the old codgers left now though.
I don’t think your position is over-simplistic but in the spirit of 1001 “Yea buts”, here goes.
1) NI is currently in the UK because that is the way it was divided in 1920/1 by HMG and the old IRA, running for the hills even before I started. Yes the majority on NI citizens (55-45’ish) would appear to want it that way based on their religion but there has never been a vote on it. I agree with your comment on HMG palming it off to Eire, they have been scuppered. During the Good Friday discussions one of the sticking points for Unionists was the Republic’s constitutional claim to the territory that is NI, can you imagine how much that particular civil servant was skipping for joy heading back to Dublin from Belfast with the news that if they drop the constitutional claim the Unionists would concede ‘X, Y, & Z’, this happened almost within weeks. Imagine the bollocking the English civil servant got when he got back to London.
2) Agreed. But, breaking down the stats. More Catholics than Protestants have been killed in NI since the outbreak of the modern troubles, surprisingly little known fact. Generally the Catholic victims were killed because they were Catholic, i.e. indiscriminate; whereas, generally the other side were killed because they were members of Army, RUC, UDA, LVF, UFF, Special Branch, B-Specials, etc. I use the word ‘generally’ as there are many examples that break these rules and quite a few of the murdered Catholics were members of IRA, INLA, etc. I speak in % terms only.
3) Yes, HMG is in an impossible position but not as impossible as it used to be, great progress has been made, mabey that's the problem. Consider your statement “ the Catholic community asked the home secretary to send in the Army for protection”, can you imagine the Asians in Bradford asking Mr. Plunkett to send in the Army to protect them from the BNP. If you don’t recognise the validity of a modern day example then try and consider the fear that made the Catholics ask an English home secretary to send in the British Army for protection.
4) Again agreed, but how do you do it? Are you better off having a terrorist in politics as opposed to just being a terrorist? Get a terrorist out of a community; the only way you will get a terrorist out of a community is to negate the need for having a terrorist in a community in the first place by having a political solution that the community can see and agree with. This gets them out of action.
5) Dare I say it, all the ‘activities’ pointed out seem akin to what we generally call a ‘normal’ civilised society.
6) I though letting the convicted terrorists out of jail was stupid, ill timed, short sighted and done far too quickly if it was the considered best solution. The word ‘hate’ does not apply to me in this instance, if one of these terrorists had killed a member of my family, friend etc. it probably would.
7) Agreed but. If one guy breaks the rules does the whole party get banned, I’m not trying to be flippant about it BUT should the Tory party be banned from politics because, J Archer was/is a crook, J Major the ex-PM was an idiot for shagging you know who. What litmus test do you use, do you assume a general moral value based on the lowest value or the highest. I’m not comparing like with like but form your statement you say ‘party’ not ‘individual’.
8) I agree again, but he would have been aware. John Reid said he was aware, if he was aware so was TB. John is a competent politician and is nearly always in control; to my mind he looked very uncomfortable admitting his knowledge of the raid. Did the Scottish Celtic supporter – mainlander - get stiffed? who knows/cares, history at this stage. It will be interesting to see the relationship between H. Ord and JR in the next few months.
9) Yes, let the courts judge the evidence.
10) Again agreed. There has been a pause in the bloodshed for the last 7/8 years, a lot of people in NI seem to be keen to get back to what was there before that running for their ideological comfort zone and saying ‘I told you so’. That represents no solution.
My vote, for what it’s worth.
Check the evidence; bring a court case and prove/disprove accordingly.
Do not suspend because this will cause a political vacuum and I would hate to see that. This end will only serve a terrorist and quite frankly that part of the world has seen more than its fair share already.
Elections were at hand anyway and will happen within the next 6 months, the recent years results have shown what is termed as a polarization of ideas i.e. Protestant voting DUP as opposed to UUP, and Catholic voting SF as opposed to SDLP. The background noise that is this crises will continue that political polarization. Up until very recently his own electorate & party saw David Trimble as a liberal UUP. Roughly 2/3 weeks ago his line suddenly hardened and the language returned to the infamous ‘Ulster says No’ style, albeit vaguely. He had little choice in this as the hardliners in the UUP were getting the upper hand so it was very much to save his political skin, however the stance has been taken.
We don’t know what goes on behind doors but in retrospect events gain a certain clarity when you view the timings of statements against events.
King James, the defeated catholic king at the battle of the Boyne was English.
King Billy, the victor and modern day Ulster icon was Protestant Dutch - orange is the colour after all.
The majority of Protestants in NI and descendants of Scottish Presbyterians, if memory serves the Scottish have a long history of wanting to be part of England!
Irish Men are the biggest killers of Irish Men, by a factor of more than 2-1 in the last century alone.
Members of IRA version 1, “the old IRA”, receive a separate additional pension from the Irish state, not many of the old codgers left now though.
I don’t think your position is over-simplistic but in the spirit of 1001 “Yea buts”, here goes.
1) NI is currently in the UK because that is the way it was divided in 1920/1 by HMG and the old IRA, running for the hills even before I started. Yes the majority on NI citizens (55-45’ish) would appear to want it that way based on their religion but there has never been a vote on it. I agree with your comment on HMG palming it off to Eire, they have been scuppered. During the Good Friday discussions one of the sticking points for Unionists was the Republic’s constitutional claim to the territory that is NI, can you imagine how much that particular civil servant was skipping for joy heading back to Dublin from Belfast with the news that if they drop the constitutional claim the Unionists would concede ‘X, Y, & Z’, this happened almost within weeks. Imagine the bollocking the English civil servant got when he got back to London.
2) Agreed. But, breaking down the stats. More Catholics than Protestants have been killed in NI since the outbreak of the modern troubles, surprisingly little known fact. Generally the Catholic victims were killed because they were Catholic, i.e. indiscriminate; whereas, generally the other side were killed because they were members of Army, RUC, UDA, LVF, UFF, Special Branch, B-Specials, etc. I use the word ‘generally’ as there are many examples that break these rules and quite a few of the murdered Catholics were members of IRA, INLA, etc. I speak in % terms only.
3) Yes, HMG is in an impossible position but not as impossible as it used to be, great progress has been made, mabey that's the problem. Consider your statement “ the Catholic community asked the home secretary to send in the Army for protection”, can you imagine the Asians in Bradford asking Mr. Plunkett to send in the Army to protect them from the BNP. If you don’t recognise the validity of a modern day example then try and consider the fear that made the Catholics ask an English home secretary to send in the British Army for protection.
4) Again agreed, but how do you do it? Are you better off having a terrorist in politics as opposed to just being a terrorist? Get a terrorist out of a community; the only way you will get a terrorist out of a community is to negate the need for having a terrorist in a community in the first place by having a political solution that the community can see and agree with. This gets them out of action.
5) Dare I say it, all the ‘activities’ pointed out seem akin to what we generally call a ‘normal’ civilised society.
6) I though letting the convicted terrorists out of jail was stupid, ill timed, short sighted and done far too quickly if it was the considered best solution. The word ‘hate’ does not apply to me in this instance, if one of these terrorists had killed a member of my family, friend etc. it probably would.
7) Agreed but. If one guy breaks the rules does the whole party get banned, I’m not trying to be flippant about it BUT should the Tory party be banned from politics because, J Archer was/is a crook, J Major the ex-PM was an idiot for shagging you know who. What litmus test do you use, do you assume a general moral value based on the lowest value or the highest. I’m not comparing like with like but form your statement you say ‘party’ not ‘individual’.
8) I agree again, but he would have been aware. John Reid said he was aware, if he was aware so was TB. John is a competent politician and is nearly always in control; to my mind he looked very uncomfortable admitting his knowledge of the raid. Did the Scottish Celtic supporter – mainlander - get stiffed? who knows/cares, history at this stage. It will be interesting to see the relationship between H. Ord and JR in the next few months.
9) Yes, let the courts judge the evidence.
10) Again agreed. There has been a pause in the bloodshed for the last 7/8 years, a lot of people in NI seem to be keen to get back to what was there before that running for their ideological comfort zone and saying ‘I told you so’. That represents no solution.
My vote, for what it’s worth.
Check the evidence; bring a court case and prove/disprove accordingly.
Do not suspend because this will cause a political vacuum and I would hate to see that. This end will only serve a terrorist and quite frankly that part of the world has seen more than its fair share already.
Elections were at hand anyway and will happen within the next 6 months, the recent years results have shown what is termed as a polarization of ideas i.e. Protestant voting DUP as opposed to UUP, and Catholic voting SF as opposed to SDLP. The background noise that is this crises will continue that political polarization. Up until very recently his own electorate & party saw David Trimble as a liberal UUP. Roughly 2/3 weeks ago his line suddenly hardened and the language returned to the infamous ‘Ulster says No’ style, albeit vaguely. He had little choice in this as the hardliners in the UUP were getting the upper hand so it was very much to save his political skin, however the stance has been taken.
We don’t know what goes on behind doors but in retrospect events gain a certain clarity when you view the timings of statements against events.
Interesting points you make DD.
I've got my fingers crossed that people far more intelligent, articulate and clear headed than I can sort this out once and for all.
Incidently, I've a pal who is a civil servant in Eire. He reckons that Eire secretly doesn't want the north back! - The thinking is that it will be just too much trouble trying to accomodate the Unionist tradition into mainstream Irish culture. In short, they think reunification would be a can of worms and would merely shift the day to day management of the same problem from London to Dublin! Don't know if he's right, but interesting if he is!
Andy 400se
I've got my fingers crossed that people far more intelligent, articulate and clear headed than I can sort this out once and for all.
Incidently, I've a pal who is a civil servant in Eire. He reckons that Eire secretly doesn't want the north back! - The thinking is that it will be just too much trouble trying to accomodate the Unionist tradition into mainstream Irish culture. In short, they think reunification would be a can of worms and would merely shift the day to day management of the same problem from London to Dublin! Don't know if he's right, but interesting if he is!
Andy 400se
Speed Matters | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff