RE: First Dealer for FBS
Sunday 23rd March 2003
First Dealer for FBS
The start of something big?
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FBS Cars have appointed their first dealer to distribute their Census V6. Macdonald Racing in County Durham is a historic Lagonda specialist and will provide a full dealer service for the Census alongside its existing Morgan franchise.
Managing Director John Macdonald commented, "As soon as I started to drive the Census I was aware that it attracted a lot of attention. The unique body design and melodious exhaust note are just the things that make a sports car memorable and, combined with the traditional front engine rear drive layout and masses of torque, I am sure that this car really could be a future classic."
Macdonald was also complimenary about the Census's handling: "In more than 37 years of involvement with fine sporting cars of all sorts I must say that the ride, handling and road-holding of this car are at least as good as any I can remember. This is why I wanted to be involved with the Company."
Macdonald Racing’s range of services includes all aspects of classic car restoration and race preparation.
Now in its fifth year of trading, FBS is working towards a medium term production target of over fifty cars a year.
Discussion
Jeez people... change record! OK so the styling isn't to a lot of people's tastes... but surely we should be applauding the fact that a small British car manufacturer seems to be doing well, having created a car that has good dynamics (from what I've read)... rather than slating it at every possible opportunity?!?!
) Hope they make a good go of it. 
Rich...Rich,
To explain why good cars do not happen overnight. Someone can sketch a styling proposal in a few hours but it takes tens of thousands of hours (millions at a big company when they also design the engine, transmission, etc.) to engineer a car to the standards of ability and reliability we have engineered into Census.
I started the business in 1998. For the first couple of years, I generated funds by working as a consultant for BMW on the new Mini (which was of course engineered by Brit's at Gaydon and Longbridge) while Robin Hall and I did the basic engineering of the Census project in our spare time (Robin was simultaneously designing the front suspension for Mini). We went full time on the Census in June 2000 and delivered the first customer car in June 2002.
A time of 3-5 years from concept to production is typical for any totally new car design (by which I mean a whole new car not just putting a new body on a 30 year old chassis). As an engineer, I am sceptical of companies who start delivering cars before they have had adequate development time (we had over a year between the first representative prototype and delivering a car to a customer, a year in which the car improved in all areas).
I hope this helps.
Joe
To explain why good cars do not happen overnight. Someone can sketch a styling proposal in a few hours but it takes tens of thousands of hours (millions at a big company when they also design the engine, transmission, etc.) to engineer a car to the standards of ability and reliability we have engineered into Census.
I started the business in 1998. For the first couple of years, I generated funds by working as a consultant for BMW on the new Mini (which was of course engineered by Brit's at Gaydon and Longbridge) while Robin Hall and I did the basic engineering of the Census project in our spare time (Robin was simultaneously designing the front suspension for Mini). We went full time on the Census in June 2000 and delivered the first customer car in June 2002.
A time of 3-5 years from concept to production is typical for any totally new car design (by which I mean a whole new car not just putting a new body on a 30 year old chassis). As an engineer, I am sceptical of companies who start delivering cars before they have had adequate development time (we had over a year between the first representative prototype and delivering a car to a customer, a year in which the car improved in all areas).
I hope this helps.
Joe
Joe, thanks for the explanation, although I can't see why you're taking a pop at Bristol, I assume that is who you are refering to?
joe90 said: I started the business in 1998...
...a whole new car not just putting a new body on a 30 year old chassis).
Rich... >> Edited by RichB on Monday 24th March 17:49
DanH said:
Podie people are saying that because :
a) its true.
b) if they sorted the looks, more people would buy and instead of ending up another failed british manufacturer, it might just make it. Right now I'm skeptical.
DanH - fair enough... but if someone had a pop at TVR reliability, evenone goes
bonkers over "not this old chesnut again" etc etc... and personally I kinda feel the same about the FBS and it's looks. I'm not a fan of the styling myself (before you go off on that route) but I've nothing but respect and admiration for people who design and build cars from scratch. Having worked in the motor industry I've seen cars developed at big companies and how much is involved... and for a small company to do that, I think it's phenominal.
I will now get off my
Yeah I'm with Podie on this one - I wish 'em luck - the car handles excellently!
There are other cars out there that aren't exactly pretty, but people still buy 'em 'cos they drive well - Impreza Turbo, Lotus 7 spring to mind.
Dare I even say it Tamora as well
(Also an excellent drive!)
There are other cars out there that aren't exactly pretty, but people still buy 'em 'cos they drive well - Impreza Turbo, Lotus 7 spring to mind.
Dare I even say it Tamora as well
(Also an excellent drive!)As you know I have always listened to and accepted the comments of PH'ers but, purely in the interests of balance you understand(!), here are some press quotes:
"it's enough to turn any woman's head...I like the droopy, smiley face and the rear light array is so very different. This is not a me-too car and if I had a pound for every person who pointed at it with wide-eyed approval I could give up playing Lotto" from New Car Net.
"...a clever good looker" from Honest John
"If this car was a fashion designer, it would be Vivien Westwood, quirky, unusual and very, very different...something new, something fresh" from Pulling Power
"Each to their own" is, I think the only lesson we can draw!
Cheers
Joe
"it's enough to turn any woman's head...I like the droopy, smiley face and the rear light array is so very different. This is not a me-too car and if I had a pound for every person who pointed at it with wide-eyed approval I could give up playing Lotto" from New Car Net.
"...a clever good looker" from Honest John
"If this car was a fashion designer, it would be Vivien Westwood, quirky, unusual and very, very different...something new, something fresh" from Pulling Power
"Each to their own" is, I think the only lesson we can draw!
Cheers
Joe
joe90 said: As you know I have always listened to and accepted the comments of PH'ers but, purely in the interests of balance you understand(!), here are some press quotes:
"it's enough to turn any woman's head...I like the droopy, smiley face and the rear light array is so very different. This is not a me-too car and if I had a pound for every person who pointed at it with wide-eyed approval I could give up playing Lotto" from New Car Net.
"...a clever good looker" from Honest John
"If this car was a fashion designer, it would be Vivien Westwood, quirky, unusual and very, very different...something new, something fresh" from Pulling Power
"Each to their own" is, I think the only lesson we can draw!
Cheers
Joe
Joe,
Those quotes certainly seem to support your cause, but it's easy to cut a quote from a review, taking out of context (not that I'm accusing you of doing that of course
). Obviously you're not going to post any similar reviews that are negative? Anyway, I think what we're trying to say is that there is an overwhelming tide of opinion (not only on here, but around the 'scene' in general from chatting to other 'specialist' car owners) that says that the styling of the car is too 'different', too 'quirky' to appeal to the masses.
I appreciate that it takes a great deal of time and money to design the aesthetics, but from what I've heard, it's these that are letting you down. The dynamics seem to be as good as you claim.
I fear that without a rethink, the car is destined to sell only a few examples which can only be a bad thing for the longevity of Census.
So how about it? I'm sure that clad in the right GRP, the car could be a hit, but alas if you continue to try and make this design marketable, I think you're on a downhill slope.
But how many cars have you actually sold? It says in the article that you're hoping to sell 50 a year. You delivered the first car in 2002. How many other orders are there for the Vivien Westwood, quirky looking car?
I saw it at the Motor Show, and I thought it looked like a complete shed. I'm sure that the engineering under the body is wonderful, and dynamically it may well be fabulous, but the show car looked like it hade been built by a blind mans guide dog.
Just my 10 penneth.
James
I saw it at the Motor Show, and I thought it looked like a complete shed. I'm sure that the engineering under the body is wonderful, and dynamically it may well be fabulous, but the show car looked like it hade been built by a blind mans guide dog.
Just my 10 penneth.
James
joe90 said:
"it's enough to turn any woman's head...I like the droopy, smiley face and the rear light array is so very different. This is not a me-too car and if I had a pound for every person who pointed at it with wide-eyed approval I could give up playing Lotto" from New Car Net.
Not to mention:
"Census requires of its customers an acknowledgement that something barely out of the prototype stage may not exhibit the precise fit and finish of a production-line car. Clearly these cars are hand-built and it shows, particularly around the stubby tail, where the panel gaps on the test car were not the most exact fit I have seen. And opening the small boot revealed traces of hasty trimming of the GRP mouldings." New Car Net
"The ergonomics, too are a shade suspect. Aside from the figure hugging, optional leather seats, and the outstandingly good driving position, minor controls are somewhat scattered. For example, the rotary light switch is placed where you might expect to find the heater controls, and vice versa. The latter has a blower that's fierce in its execution and noisy enough to drown the engine note. The fascia is dominated by a huge and featureless GRP moulding that looks cheap but probably isn't." New Car Net
As Stig says, it's easy to cut out the bits of a review that you like, and leave the bits that criticise. It looks like Mr. New Car Net isn't impressed with the build quality either.
James
Are there plans for any other body styles in the pipeline? A coupe, an alternative body in the old style of coachbuilding?
I guess the costs of retooling may be prohibative but if there were a couple of alternative bodies or body styles that could be mounted on the chassis then it could be a very different story.
I'm a big fan of the engineering of the car. It's extremely well designed and a delight to drive. I have a lot of respect for Andew and what he's achieved so far. I'd hate to see FBS fail because a quirky body hid the car's true talents. Sales of six cars in the last year despite all the press coverage don't bode well (IMHO). Please don't take that wrong way Andrew - I'm always a bit warey of appearing to tell someone how to run their business when I've got one of my own that I should be concentrating on!
If by some means a pretty body could be put on it then the biggest problem would be runaway sales not whingeing sportscar owners like us
I guess the costs of retooling may be prohibative but if there were a couple of alternative bodies or body styles that could be mounted on the chassis then it could be a very different story.
I'm a big fan of the engineering of the car. It's extremely well designed and a delight to drive. I have a lot of respect for Andew and what he's achieved so far. I'd hate to see FBS fail because a quirky body hid the car's true talents. Sales of six cars in the last year despite all the press coverage don't bode well (IMHO). Please don't take that wrong way Andrew - I'm always a bit warey of appearing to tell someone how to run their business when I've got one of my own that I should be concentrating on!
If by some means a pretty body could be put on it then the biggest problem would be runaway sales not whingeing sportscar owners like us
I completely argee with Ted. The looks of the car are going to prevent most people from even sitting in the car. No matter how good it handles, you have to get people to drive it to find out.
History is littered with good looking cars that handle like boats, but sell because they look good. It's also littered with technically ecellent cars that look like boats, which have failed, because people are embarressed to be seen in them.
The Census is like an ugly bird. You might like a go on one, but you wouldn't want your mates to see you out with it in public.
History is littered with good looking cars that handle like boats, but sell because they look good. It's also littered with technically ecellent cars that look like boats, which have failed, because people are embarressed to be seen in them.
The Census is like an ugly bird. You might like a go on one, but you wouldn't want your mates to see you out with it in public.
I agree, at the risk of offending certain people (not a habit of mine) the Census seems to be playing devils advocate, at once it is touted as being a performance or track car with looks being second place as per Caterfield etc, but if this is so why make the thing look so contentious and 'quirky'. The sales pitch suggests no nonsense usable track car yet the appearance screams 'look at me, I'm quirky'
The comment by james was on the money IMO, looks will sell a car every time despite it's shortcomings (Aston Martin)but it takes a steely resolve to buy an 'odd' looking car that is a master of track and country lane (Tamora)
The comment by james was on the money IMO, looks will sell a car every time despite it's shortcomings (Aston Martin)but it takes a steely resolve to buy an 'odd' looking car that is a master of track and country lane (Tamora)
I agree entirely with Ted. I have been straight with you on the car from the first.
By all accounts it is a very acomplished drivers car, and sure the looks challenge conventional ideas of beauty, but I'd say the real achilles heel is the build quality indeed if the motorshow one is anything to go by the build quality once past the mechanicals is so poor that it looks like the product of an episode of scrapheap challenge not something that has been built in a factory and cost tens of thousands. My rusty 1973 Spitfire was better put together - by me in the shed. You have a deeply complex shape with intersecting angles and irregular shut lines. You need robotic precision to pull that off. It looks like you made do with 2 blokes saying "left a bit...down a touch...that'll do"
Your precious few clients are not there to fund your desire to have a car company. lose the pride compromise and capitalise on the goodwill of all those on here who will support you because of what you have undoubtedly achieved.
If the cost it the issue, then do something like buying the Strathcarron moulds from the reciever and doing something one piece and hairy to get the client cash in. it will also be alot cheaper to make.
Talk to someone outside for advice - try Mike Southon the "Beermat Entrepreneur" who is a superb advisor for small companies - if you want his Number, email me through my profile. But do something, because unless you have a sideline you are not going to even stay in business let alone be able to get your 50 sales per year.
By all accounts it is a very acomplished drivers car, and sure the looks challenge conventional ideas of beauty, but I'd say the real achilles heel is the build quality indeed if the motorshow one is anything to go by the build quality once past the mechanicals is so poor that it looks like the product of an episode of scrapheap challenge not something that has been built in a factory and cost tens of thousands. My rusty 1973 Spitfire was better put together - by me in the shed. You have a deeply complex shape with intersecting angles and irregular shut lines. You need robotic precision to pull that off. It looks like you made do with 2 blokes saying "left a bit...down a touch...that'll do"
Your precious few clients are not there to fund your desire to have a car company. lose the pride compromise and capitalise on the goodwill of all those on here who will support you because of what you have undoubtedly achieved.
If the cost it the issue, then do something like buying the Strathcarron moulds from the reciever and doing something one piece and hairy to get the client cash in. it will also be alot cheaper to make.
Talk to someone outside for advice - try Mike Southon the "Beermat Entrepreneur" who is a superb advisor for small companies - if you want his Number, email me through my profile. But do something, because unless you have a sideline you are not going to even stay in business let alone be able to get your 50 sales per year.
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