How do you identify a good one?
Discussion
I keep dipping into the classifieds looking for a V8 TVR (Cerbera pref 4.5 or maybe a Griffith) but each time come away frustrated and end up buying something more sensible.
With most cars I've done my homework, determined if the weak points for that model have been addressed and quizzed the seller for details of condition, service history etc. It's generally pretty easy to agree the cars value based on condition, mileage and history. I'm struggling to do the same with TVRs. For example, is a higher mileage car that's had much recent reconditioning work really worth say £10k more than a low mileage car that has simply been well maintained throughout its life? "Buy on condition" and "look at a few to compare" is fine in principle but that's not so easy when the few cars for sale are spread all over the country. I attended a local TVR Car Club meet and all their cars looked and sounded good to me. I'd rather pay a specialist to inspect my chosen car rather that pay them thousands to do a tour of the country inspecting potential purchases!
I accept that no car is likely to tick all the boxes so any tips from owners on what I should focus on? For example;
- Is recent outriggers good or, assuming it wasn't a body off repair, does it indicate the main chassis might be rotten?
- How important is continuous service history? Many have gone through a period of very light use or inactivity and not had annual oil changes.
- I know lack of use can lead to reliability issues but could a lightly used partial service history car with potential recommissioning bills be a better bet than one needing paint, a retrim and chassis work? There is an extremely low mileage Cerb in the classifieds that hasn't sold that is now open to offers, which has caught my eye.
Sorry for rambling on. Pointers that will help me focus much appreciated.
Thanks.
Pete
With most cars I've done my homework, determined if the weak points for that model have been addressed and quizzed the seller for details of condition, service history etc. It's generally pretty easy to agree the cars value based on condition, mileage and history. I'm struggling to do the same with TVRs. For example, is a higher mileage car that's had much recent reconditioning work really worth say £10k more than a low mileage car that has simply been well maintained throughout its life? "Buy on condition" and "look at a few to compare" is fine in principle but that's not so easy when the few cars for sale are spread all over the country. I attended a local TVR Car Club meet and all their cars looked and sounded good to me. I'd rather pay a specialist to inspect my chosen car rather that pay them thousands to do a tour of the country inspecting potential purchases!
I accept that no car is likely to tick all the boxes so any tips from owners on what I should focus on? For example;
- Is recent outriggers good or, assuming it wasn't a body off repair, does it indicate the main chassis might be rotten?
- How important is continuous service history? Many have gone through a period of very light use or inactivity and not had annual oil changes.
- I know lack of use can lead to reliability issues but could a lightly used partial service history car with potential recommissioning bills be a better bet than one needing paint, a retrim and chassis work? There is an extremely low mileage Cerb in the classifieds that hasn't sold that is now open to offers, which has caught my eye.
Sorry for rambling on. Pointers that will help me focus much appreciated.
Thanks.
Pete
SFTWend said:
- I know lack of use can lead to reliability issues but could a lightly used partial service history car with potential recommissioning bills be a better bet than one needing paint, a retrim and chassis work?
Lack of use can often indicate ongoing, difficult and expensive to resolve issues, which then also results in deferred maintenanceIf the car is working properly then it is very difficult resist driving, especially in the summer
Owners of little used cars often report that they have been living abroad, and never get a chance to use the car (not easy to check)
Other that outriggers the other problem areas for the chassis is the top rails just underneath the manifolds. The heat burns off the powder coating and they corrode. Recent outriggers is a definite plus.
I'd say service history back to year dot is nice, but not the be and end all. If it sat around a few years ago and missed some services while in storage but is now back up and running it probably won't have resulted in any harm to the mechanical bits. At that point it becomes lumps of metal nicely coated in protective oil. Depending on where it's stored chassis, interior or bodywork could have suffered but for at least 2 of those things damage will be self-evident. Obviously after that it may have required recommissioning along the lines of bushes, suspension, fuel lines, brakes, fixing of any electrical gremlins that have appeared, and a 12k service.
I would look for recent service history and signs the car has been used regularly, otherwise, as Ukkid35 says, the lack of use could mean it's hiding issues or require some recommissioning. If you're worried about engine health get it inspected by an expert, a compression or leakdown test could provide peace of mind.
I'd say service history back to year dot is nice, but not the be and end all. If it sat around a few years ago and missed some services while in storage but is now back up and running it probably won't have resulted in any harm to the mechanical bits. At that point it becomes lumps of metal nicely coated in protective oil. Depending on where it's stored chassis, interior or bodywork could have suffered but for at least 2 of those things damage will be self-evident. Obviously after that it may have required recommissioning along the lines of bushes, suspension, fuel lines, brakes, fixing of any electrical gremlins that have appeared, and a 12k service.
I would look for recent service history and signs the car has been used regularly, otherwise, as Ukkid35 says, the lack of use could mean it's hiding issues or require some recommissioning. If you're worried about engine health get it inspected by an expert, a compression or leakdown test could provide peace of mind.
Edited by CerbWill on Tuesday 2nd July 10:10
ukkid35 said:
Lack of use can often indicate ongoing, difficult and expensive to resolve issues, which then also results in deferred maintenance
If the car is working properly then it is very difficult resist driving, especially in the summer
Owners of little used cars often report that they have been living abroad, and never get a chance to use the car (not easy to check)
I've avoided such cars in the past for just this reason. Even if not hiding something my experience is that cars need to be driven to stay reliable.If the car is working properly then it is very difficult resist driving, especially in the summer
Owners of little used cars often report that they have been living abroad, and never get a chance to use the car (not easy to check)
Problem is so many for sale are because they are not being used!
One that has been in use, has receipts for being looked after, if it is an AJP then healthy shim thickness, solid or refurbished chassis, if an SP6 then an engine rebuild, unless it is a later one, healthy oil pressure, steady temps.
I mean it is the usual stuff, but as with any car, no guarantee!
I mean it is the usual stuff, but as with any car, no guarantee!
Most Cerbs are now over 20 years old
A car that still has the original rubber coolant hoses is easy to spot, and if nothing else, indicates a hands-off approach to maintenance
Adverts that don't include engine bay pics don't bode well for a Cerb, because that is what the car is all about
Having said that, I would still want to see the TVR-Mads 4.5 in the classifieds, as it's not a bad price
There's nothing in the ad to indicate any real maintenance at all, on the other had that means it's probably unmolested
It would probably need most consumables replaced, such as brakes, clutch & slave, shocks, suspension bushes, balljoints, boots, hoses, radiator, TPS, etc
But if it's clean and there is no sign of overheating, then it could be a good base to work with, and how long it takes to recommission would simply depend on funds and/or time available, depending on how much work you would do yourself
On the other hand, the KGF 4.5 could be better value, depending on the actual contents of the history file, and is obviously a well known car
A car that still has the original rubber coolant hoses is easy to spot, and if nothing else, indicates a hands-off approach to maintenance
Adverts that don't include engine bay pics don't bode well for a Cerb, because that is what the car is all about
Having said that, I would still want to see the TVR-Mads 4.5 in the classifieds, as it's not a bad price
There's nothing in the ad to indicate any real maintenance at all, on the other had that means it's probably unmolested
It would probably need most consumables replaced, such as brakes, clutch & slave, shocks, suspension bushes, balljoints, boots, hoses, radiator, TPS, etc
But if it's clean and there is no sign of overheating, then it could be a good base to work with, and how long it takes to recommission would simply depend on funds and/or time available, depending on how much work you would do yourself
On the other hand, the KGF 4.5 could be better value, depending on the actual contents of the history file, and is obviously a well known car
Edited by ukkid35 on Tuesday 2nd July 14:04
I’ve always thought the number of previous owners is a good barometer.
If a car has “issues” it’s more likely to be sold on if the owner doesn’t want to invest in it. The chances are, if they don’t want to pay to fix something big and would rather just get rid, they probably also skimp on the other stuff.
Conversely a “bad” car can be nursed back to health by someone with skills/money/motivation and that person is more likely to keep it and nurture it (so the number of years per owner goes up).
True of any car but especially so for a cerb imo.
Edit: maybe the length of time the seller has owned it is a better metric.
If a car has “issues” it’s more likely to be sold on if the owner doesn’t want to invest in it. The chances are, if they don’t want to pay to fix something big and would rather just get rid, they probably also skimp on the other stuff.
Conversely a “bad” car can be nursed back to health by someone with skills/money/motivation and that person is more likely to keep it and nurture it (so the number of years per owner goes up).
True of any car but especially so for a cerb imo.
Edit: maybe the length of time the seller has owned it is a better metric.
Edited by FarmyardPants on Tuesday 2nd July 19:19
History of the car, receipts. Most now are known cars, so how it's been used, what the recent bills are. You want to see a history of the car being looked after, don't be worried about a lot of invoices.
They'll always have little niggles that are usually easy to sort, dirty contacts etc. It's the big things that cost.
They'll always have little niggles that are usually easy to sort, dirty contacts etc. It's the big things that cost.
Byker28i said:
Most now are known cars
This Wiki used to be a sticky, but it seems to have slippedhttps://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=71...
FarmyardPants said:
I’ve always thought the number of previous owners is a good barometer.
If a car has “issues” it’s more likely to be sold on if the owner doesn’t want to invest in it. The chances are, if they don’t want to pay to fix something big and would rather just get rid, they probably also skimp on the other stuff.
Conversely a “bad” car can be nursed back to health by someone with skills/money/motivation and that person is more likely to keep it and nurture it (so the number of years per owner goes up).
True of any car but especially so for a cerb imo.
Edit: maybe the length of time the seller has owned it is a better metric.
Interesting one that.. At 20yrs old now, a Cerb could easily have 10 owners and each one would have owned it 2yrs.. Which wouldn't be too short per ownership?If a car has “issues” it’s more likely to be sold on if the owner doesn’t want to invest in it. The chances are, if they don’t want to pay to fix something big and would rather just get rid, they probably also skimp on the other stuff.
Conversely a “bad” car can be nursed back to health by someone with skills/money/motivation and that person is more likely to keep it and nurture it (so the number of years per owner goes up).
True of any car but especially so for a cerb imo.
Edit: maybe the length of time the seller has owned it is a better metric.
Edited by FarmyardPants on Tuesday 2nd July 19:19
I think if one has many owners you go in cautiously, but it could still be a gem.. I think the most important thing is probably the last 5yrs of it's life.. I mean a lot of things replaced at 5yrs old say, will have been changed at least once again since.
Looking at the MOT history of cars in the classifieds it looks like the majority have not turned a wheel very often in recent years. This includes examples up for c£40k, which is silly money imo for a market that has surely peaked.
So, frustratingly, I can't follow the advice of forum members and buy a car with plenty of recent history and usage. That being the case, I've concluded that if a car is going to present recommissioning bills I might as well get one that benefits from a low mileage and unmolested condition. The very low ownership and mileage example I've arranged to view has a patchy service history and has been for sale for around a year I understand. That doesn't sound promising but the dealer, who has been selling TVRs for c.40 years, came across well on the phone.
Unless anyone knows something I should I'll let you know how I get on.
So, frustratingly, I can't follow the advice of forum members and buy a car with plenty of recent history and usage. That being the case, I've concluded that if a car is going to present recommissioning bills I might as well get one that benefits from a low mileage and unmolested condition. The very low ownership and mileage example I've arranged to view has a patchy service history and has been for sale for around a year I understand. That doesn't sound promising but the dealer, who has been selling TVRs for c.40 years, came across well on the phone.
Unless anyone knows something I should I'll let you know how I get on.
I agree with most / all of the above.
Just another point to add. Just because a car has had money spent on it, it doesn’t mean that it has been spent wisely and the car is in good order.
About 10 / 15 ish years ago I had a friend (honest) who owned a V8 Cerbera. I didn’t know the car that well, but at a 10 second glance, it looked stunning.
Whenever I asked my friend about the car he always said that it had just had a little issue and just been to the local TVR specialist and it had cost him a shed load. I never really liked that particular specialist and indeed they have since stopped trading with some very unhappy ex customers. Anyway, at the time, it appeared that he was maintaining the car “money no object”
One day, over a beer, my friend let slip that his business wasn’t doing so well and he had to save some money and was considering selling the Cerb.
The next day I was round his house and mentally I had already decided to buy it.
However, not all was well. amongst other horrors, he wasn’t aware how to check the oil level. Both the oil and coolant levels were well below what they should have been. Several electrical things didn’t work. When I went through the extensive history file I was staggered. If ever there was a story of blatant over charging combined with work that probably didn’t need doing, this was it.
I didn’t buy it. It remained for sale for a long time as he steadily dropped the price, in the end it went to a private trader who made a very low offer, but by that time my friend was desperate to get rid. I would love to know what became of the car or where it is now.
Just another point to add. Just because a car has had money spent on it, it doesn’t mean that it has been spent wisely and the car is in good order.
About 10 / 15 ish years ago I had a friend (honest) who owned a V8 Cerbera. I didn’t know the car that well, but at a 10 second glance, it looked stunning.
Whenever I asked my friend about the car he always said that it had just had a little issue and just been to the local TVR specialist and it had cost him a shed load. I never really liked that particular specialist and indeed they have since stopped trading with some very unhappy ex customers. Anyway, at the time, it appeared that he was maintaining the car “money no object”
One day, over a beer, my friend let slip that his business wasn’t doing so well and he had to save some money and was considering selling the Cerb.
The next day I was round his house and mentally I had already decided to buy it.
However, not all was well. amongst other horrors, he wasn’t aware how to check the oil level. Both the oil and coolant levels were well below what they should have been. Several electrical things didn’t work. When I went through the extensive history file I was staggered. If ever there was a story of blatant over charging combined with work that probably didn’t need doing, this was it.
I didn’t buy it. It remained for sale for a long time as he steadily dropped the price, in the end it went to a private trader who made a very low offer, but by that time my friend was desperate to get rid. I would love to know what became of the car or where it is now.
BIG DUNC said:
I didn’t buy it. It remained for sale for a long time as he steadily dropped the price, in the end it went to a private trader who made a very low offer, but by that time my friend was desperate to get rid. I would love to know what became of the car or where it is now.
What was the reg?I bought a Cerbera that had been sitting unused for nearly 3 years and it cost me £4k to get it running properly again, Clutch, fuel lines, tyres, brakes to name just a few of the items that needed changed to get it back up to spec, yes a fair bit was cosmetic but that was me getting it looking good. So buying one that hasn't been used much will probably require some investment to get it running and looking good.
Jhonno said:
What was the reg?
Not a clue, I have just had a look for some pictures of it, but I don't think I have any.I think it sold in 2006, give or take a year or two. It wasn't a "TVR" plate, just a normal age related plate, and its far too long ago for me to recall. It was bright yellow at the time and cosmetically very good inside and out. Just the mechanics and electrical's let it down. I don't remember anything wrong with outriggers, and I am sure I would have looked.
Back to topic and my 2p for what it’s worth.
I think you have to remember your buying into a low volume sports car built 20 years ago, in a shed in Blackpool. The V8 Cerbera is a unique car with a semi race designed engine and all kinds of early eccentric electrickory. Of the 2000ish built there are now only 377 on the road in the UK, so time is running out.
I agree you should look for the best you can, chassis outriggers, service history etc are all important to check, but be prepared for things to go wrong. It’s hard to predict what and when from the usual indicators like mileage, service history etc.
I think most if not everything is still repairable, although AJP V8 heads seem to be getting rarer. I was advised to budget on running costs of £300/ month so I knew what I was getting into.
6 years later, I sometimes think I bought a Friday afternoon car, but I haven’t quite spent the £300/mth, if you take an average and exclude fuel!
That said everytime you drive it, you know it’s worth it.😊
I think you have to remember your buying into a low volume sports car built 20 years ago, in a shed in Blackpool. The V8 Cerbera is a unique car with a semi race designed engine and all kinds of early eccentric electrickory. Of the 2000ish built there are now only 377 on the road in the UK, so time is running out.
I agree you should look for the best you can, chassis outriggers, service history etc are all important to check, but be prepared for things to go wrong. It’s hard to predict what and when from the usual indicators like mileage, service history etc.
I think most if not everything is still repairable, although AJP V8 heads seem to be getting rarer. I was advised to budget on running costs of £300/ month so I knew what I was getting into.
6 years later, I sometimes think I bought a Friday afternoon car, but I haven’t quite spent the £300/mth, if you take an average and exclude fuel!
That said everytime you drive it, you know it’s worth it.😊
Gassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff