Solving the starter motor issue ?
Discussion
I'm aware it's not quite a done thing to ponder on issues of a car one does not own, but I can't help wondering why no one seems to have found solutions to usual issues such as starter motors breaking down.
I've been reading this forum for 5 years and the same old starter motor issue comes up every once in a while.
Is it that complicated to find some aftermarket unit that would fit and actually work in all conditions, or perhaps design some lower air duct to bring it some fresh air ?
Shoot me hard if I've missed something.
I've been reading this forum for 5 years and the same old starter motor issue comes up every once in a while.
Is it that complicated to find some aftermarket unit that would fit and actually work in all conditions, or perhaps design some lower air duct to bring it some fresh air ?
Shoot me hard if I've missed something.
I'm one of the people experiencing Starter problems at the moment.
As my understanding goes, the problem with any unit will be the positioning on the car. The starter on a AJPV8 Cerb' is on the top of the bellhousing, tucked into the transmission tunnel, and as such it gets very hot with no air flow.
My stater has the dreaded hot start click, and this only manifested itself after a very hard track day at Brands.
I have talked to Eurolec (apparently TVR suppliers) about my starter as the symptoms rather pointed to solenoid failure rather than the starter itself, however I was told that it could be a break in the armature itself. My understanding of the full intricacies of electric motors is sketch to say the least, so I'm not sure how plausable this is.
I've considered fitting a fan and wrapping the starter, I think I'm going to try the latter as it's an easy fit.
Tim
As my understanding goes, the problem with any unit will be the positioning on the car. The starter on a AJPV8 Cerb' is on the top of the bellhousing, tucked into the transmission tunnel, and as such it gets very hot with no air flow.
My stater has the dreaded hot start click, and this only manifested itself after a very hard track day at Brands.
I have talked to Eurolec (apparently TVR suppliers) about my starter as the symptoms rather pointed to solenoid failure rather than the starter itself, however I was told that it could be a break in the armature itself. My understanding of the full intricacies of electric motors is sketch to say the least, so I'm not sure how plausable this is.
I've considered fitting a fan and wrapping the starter, I think I'm going to try the latter as it's an easy fit.
Tim
For anyone who's interested, Rally Design sell heat shield material, a lot cheaper than the likes of Demon Tweeks:
www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1604
This is the same stuff, I used to recover the tray above the exhausts, so should be upto the job.
Tim
www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1604
This is the same stuff, I used to recover the tray above the exhausts, so should be upto the job.
Tim
Steve_T said:
Given the problems with the solenoid commented on in prev threads, I do wonder if there's a case for a remote solenoid in a position that's easy to test/change.
I suggested this, but didn't get many replies:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=266000
Tim
Steve_T said:
Given the problems with the solenoid commented on in prev threads, I do wonder if there's a case for a remote solenoid in a position that's easy to test/change.
I dont think this will be the complete answer...as TT Tim has said, the starter is in one of the worse possible places to start of with...lots of heat that has little or no real way of escape. The windings and armature within the starter motor, are continually in "cook" mode anytime the engine has a decent run. The "Shellac" (sp?) that coats both the windings and armature suffer as a result, causing most of the failures. Although I agree, some of the issues could be cured by relocating the solenoid, the motor itself cannot, and will still be an on going issue.
Has anybody tried the heat wrap stuff, and does it/will it work?
Steve_T said:
Given the problems with the solenoid commented on in prev threads, I do wonder if there's a case for a remote solenoid in a position that's easy to test/change.
I would answer that by saying 'Not possible', the solenoid is an itegral part of the starter motor, its function is two fold, firstly it physically connects the starter to the flywheel and at the same time delivers the high current to the motor. I think it would be just a easy as to remotly mount one of the engine cylinders in the boot!(and have it working).
As for the comments in the other thread then it is quite possible for heat to be a major factor in the failure of the motor so some kind of ducting may be a good idea.
The heat wrap solution is not really viable since the starter motor is actually bolted to the ally engine block.
This provides an easy path for heat transfer i.e.metal to metal, making the air gap between them largely irrelevant.
A friend and supplier to our business (Mick of AutoUnit in Clacton on Sea in Essex) has been repairing and overhauling starter motors for 30 odd years.
After examining our failed 4.5 starter, he commented that as it is a Nissan Maxima unit designed for a three litre V6 engine, it was already working at the upper end of its capabilities when used on the V8 4.5 Cerb engine.
In rebuilding our unit, he fitted an uprated clutch and used different grease to lubricate its internals.
Mick insists that the major cause of repeat failures is high resistance in the supply cables. The lugs on the end of these cables (and don't forget the return cables) are usually crimped on.
Oxidation and salt corrosion in these areas even after just a couple of years will cause the starter to attempt to work at reduced voltages causing premature failure.
SOLUTION :Replace cables or soft solder lugs on!
>> Edited by slowtypa on Thursday 25th May 21:05
This provides an easy path for heat transfer i.e.metal to metal, making the air gap between them largely irrelevant.
A friend and supplier to our business (Mick of AutoUnit in Clacton on Sea in Essex) has been repairing and overhauling starter motors for 30 odd years.
After examining our failed 4.5 starter, he commented that as it is a Nissan Maxima unit designed for a three litre V6 engine, it was already working at the upper end of its capabilities when used on the V8 4.5 Cerb engine.
In rebuilding our unit, he fitted an uprated clutch and used different grease to lubricate its internals.
Mick insists that the major cause of repeat failures is high resistance in the supply cables. The lugs on the end of these cables (and don't forget the return cables) are usually crimped on.
Oxidation and salt corrosion in these areas even after just a couple of years will cause the starter to attempt to work at reduced voltages causing premature failure.
SOLUTION :Replace cables or soft solder lugs on!
>> Edited by slowtypa on Thursday 25th May 21:05
slowtypa said:
cause the starter to attempt to work at reduced voltages causing premature failure.
This was my suggestion, but got somewhat put down on this forum.
My old Tilton super starter, lasted ten years with no heat protection.
The "new" one I bought off ebay lasted a week.
I took the original one to Midland starter motors for a refurb & when I told them about the the one week starter, they suggested I also look at the supply voltage.
My battery was in need of replacement & everything is now fine.
I'm convinced that knackered battery contributed to the demise of the new starter.
I'd have to I think say you're better off wrapping the main source of heat, in the engine bay which is the exhausts, if you wrap the starter motor it'll asorb heat from the block and stay hot.
Another major factor is the front splitter needs to be in reasonable nick as this helps the airflow scenario through the engine bay
Matt
Another major factor is the front splitter needs to be in reasonable nick as this helps the airflow scenario through the engine bay
Matt
RUSSELLM said:
cause the starter to attempt to work at reduced voltages causing premature failure.
This was my suggestion, but got somewhat put down on this forum.
My old Tilton super starter, lasted ten years with no heat protection.
The "new" one I bought off ebay lasted a week.
Is there any mileage in trying to acquire a pukka Tilton super starter? Can you get them from the US, or was yours a cerby special?
I've had my Tilton one refurbed, Tilton's web site listed a place in Silverstone as A dealer, it might be worth giving them a call.
The one I got from ebay and I quote the advert "not the nissan Maxima one, that isn't up to the job"
is rolling around in my boot somewhere.
The refurb place mentioned how well made the Tilton one was & commented on the amount of "teeth", I'm going to let them look at the flea bay one & see what they think.
The one I got from ebay and I quote the advert "not the nissan Maxima one, that isn't up to the job"
is rolling around in my boot somewhere. The refurb place mentioned how well made the Tilton one was & commented on the amount of "teeth", I'm going to let them look at the flea bay one & see what they think.
Griff2be said:
Tim has a 'pukka' Tilton super starter, albeit one which was refurbished by Autolec
Afternoon Andy, well it's worked 3 times so far.
Now I'm worried that I've compounded the problem by wrapping it up! You can't win can you? I think I may go for Ceramic coated manifolds when I get my engine rebuilt at the end of the year.
Tim
Ima very interested in finding a solution as i just removed my starter to have it repaired(£180 thought that was kinda expensive tho) and think iam going to try the heat shield and while iam there i will replace the cables, anybody know if you can buy new cables off the shelf or where have other ppl had theres made up? prices?
Thanks
Thanks
Ballsy said:
Ima very interested in finding a solution as i just removed my starter to have it repaired(£180 thought that was kinda expensive tho) and think iam going to try the heat shield and while iam there i will replace the cables, anybody know if you can buy new cables off the shelf or where have other ppl had theres made up? prices?
Thanks
Thats what Autolec charge and they do guarantee the motors. Also to be fair they come back looking new. In fact I had an argument with them about why they had sent me three new pattern starters rather than my original Tiltons, until they explained they take them apart, clean then, repaint all the casings etc etc...
Halfrauds do ready made battery cables in a variety of lengths. Usually situated near the oil section. Not expensive - but can't remember if the joints are soldered.
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