Is Peugeot scamming me: Replacement aftertreatment needed?!
Discussion
Hello PH-ers,
I have a Peugeot Rifter, 1.5 hdi, 130 hp. A few days ago the EML came on, followed soon after by a AdBlue warning light and a message on the dash that after 1100 km I would not be able to start the engine anymore. The car otherwise drives normally, no loss of power and no increased fuel consumption, it's not in limp home mode. I took it to Peugeot and after a diagnostic check and a run on the rollers they told me that I need to replace the entire SCR catalyst and DPF assembly at a cost of over 2k.
They also sent me a test protocol, and after looking at the numbers for a while I'm thinking that they might be taking me for a ride with their repair recommendation. The protocol is only a snapshot of the entire test, granted, but the numbers don't paint such a bleak picture.
The fault code is P20EE 92, which is a general code for reduced cat efficiency. The technician didn't tell me of other fault codes coming up. The protocol states that at 70 mph, with a warm engine and at 30% throttle, the computer detects that NOx emissions are high and that 99.3% are not getting cleaned. It then demands 11.8 mg/s of urea, but the injector delivers 0 mg/s. The AdBlue pump is delivering 5.3 bar of pressure, so that is working. On top, the diagnostic tool predicted that the cat chemical life utilisation is 36%, and that there is very low build up of urea crystals in the SCR. The temperature in the cat is reasonably low at 330C, and crucially, the temp after the cat is higher than before it (SCRs produce an exothermic reaction, so it somehow works).
My take: this sounds like a blocked or failed AdBlue injector, not a collapsed catalyst, as the technician told me. If it was collapsed, I'd expect much higher temperatures inside, limp home mode (as the computer tries the protect the turbo from these temps), and a flurry of other fault codes coming up.
I think that Peugeot just don't want to do any fault finding, and instead just rather change the entire system at the expense of the customer. I think that I just need a new AdBlue injector. But am I wrong? Am I missing anything and is this just wishful thinking?
For context, when I challenged the technician and asked for more information he told me that "I don't have to understand this" and that "I should stop making up bullsh*t". I immediately took my car and left.
I have a Peugeot Rifter, 1.5 hdi, 130 hp. A few days ago the EML came on, followed soon after by a AdBlue warning light and a message on the dash that after 1100 km I would not be able to start the engine anymore. The car otherwise drives normally, no loss of power and no increased fuel consumption, it's not in limp home mode. I took it to Peugeot and after a diagnostic check and a run on the rollers they told me that I need to replace the entire SCR catalyst and DPF assembly at a cost of over 2k.
They also sent me a test protocol, and after looking at the numbers for a while I'm thinking that they might be taking me for a ride with their repair recommendation. The protocol is only a snapshot of the entire test, granted, but the numbers don't paint such a bleak picture.
The fault code is P20EE 92, which is a general code for reduced cat efficiency. The technician didn't tell me of other fault codes coming up. The protocol states that at 70 mph, with a warm engine and at 30% throttle, the computer detects that NOx emissions are high and that 99.3% are not getting cleaned. It then demands 11.8 mg/s of urea, but the injector delivers 0 mg/s. The AdBlue pump is delivering 5.3 bar of pressure, so that is working. On top, the diagnostic tool predicted that the cat chemical life utilisation is 36%, and that there is very low build up of urea crystals in the SCR. The temperature in the cat is reasonably low at 330C, and crucially, the temp after the cat is higher than before it (SCRs produce an exothermic reaction, so it somehow works).
My take: this sounds like a blocked or failed AdBlue injector, not a collapsed catalyst, as the technician told me. If it was collapsed, I'd expect much higher temperatures inside, limp home mode (as the computer tries the protect the turbo from these temps), and a flurry of other fault codes coming up.
I think that Peugeot just don't want to do any fault finding, and instead just rather change the entire system at the expense of the customer. I think that I just need a new AdBlue injector. But am I wrong? Am I missing anything and is this just wishful thinking?
For context, when I challenged the technician and asked for more information he told me that "I don't have to understand this" and that "I should stop making up bullsh*t". I immediately took my car and left.
Salamura said:
Hello PH-ers,
I have a Peugeot Rifter, 1.5 hdi, 130 hp. A few days ago the EML came on, followed soon after by a AdBlue warning light and a message on the dash that after 1100 km I would not be able to start the engine anymore. The car otherwise drives normally, no loss of power and no increased fuel consumption, it's not in limp home mode. I took it to Peugeot and after a diagnostic check and a run on the rollers they told me that I need to replace the entire SCR catalyst and DPF assembly at a cost of over 2k.
They also sent me a test protocol, and after looking at the numbers for a while I'm thinking that they might be taking me for a ride with their repair recommendation. The protocol is only a snapshot of the entire test, granted, but the numbers don't paint such a bleak picture.
The fault code is P20EE 92, which is a general code for reduced cat efficiency. The technician didn't tell me of other fault codes coming up. The protocol states that at 70 mph, with a warm engine and at 30% throttle, the computer detects that NOx emissions are high and that 99.3% are not getting cleaned. It then demands 11.8 mg/s of urea, but the injector delivers 0 mg/s. The AdBlue pump is delivering 5.3 bar of pressure, so that is working. On top, the diagnostic tool predicted that the cat chemical life utilisation is 36%, and that there is very low build up of urea crystals in the SCR. The temperature in the cat is reasonably low at 330C, and crucially, the temp after the cat is higher than before it (SCRs produce an exothermic reaction, so it somehow works).
My take: this sounds like a blocked or failed AdBlue injector, not a collapsed catalyst, as the technician told me. If it was collapsed, I'd expect much higher temperatures inside, limp home mode (as the computer tries the protect the turbo from these temps), and a flurry of other fault codes coming up.
I think that Peugeot just don't want to do any fault finding, and instead just rather change the entire system at the expense of the customer. I think that I just need a new AdBlue injector. But am I wrong? Am I missing anything and is this just wishful thinking?
For context, when I challenged the technician and asked for more information he told me that "I don't have to understand this" and that "I should stop making up bullsh*t". I immediately took my car and left.
Instead of taking it to a main dealer, take it to a disel specialist.I have a Peugeot Rifter, 1.5 hdi, 130 hp. A few days ago the EML came on, followed soon after by a AdBlue warning light and a message on the dash that after 1100 km I would not be able to start the engine anymore. The car otherwise drives normally, no loss of power and no increased fuel consumption, it's not in limp home mode. I took it to Peugeot and after a diagnostic check and a run on the rollers they told me that I need to replace the entire SCR catalyst and DPF assembly at a cost of over 2k.
They also sent me a test protocol, and after looking at the numbers for a while I'm thinking that they might be taking me for a ride with their repair recommendation. The protocol is only a snapshot of the entire test, granted, but the numbers don't paint such a bleak picture.
The fault code is P20EE 92, which is a general code for reduced cat efficiency. The technician didn't tell me of other fault codes coming up. The protocol states that at 70 mph, with a warm engine and at 30% throttle, the computer detects that NOx emissions are high and that 99.3% are not getting cleaned. It then demands 11.8 mg/s of urea, but the injector delivers 0 mg/s. The AdBlue pump is delivering 5.3 bar of pressure, so that is working. On top, the diagnostic tool predicted that the cat chemical life utilisation is 36%, and that there is very low build up of urea crystals in the SCR. The temperature in the cat is reasonably low at 330C, and crucially, the temp after the cat is higher than before it (SCRs produce an exothermic reaction, so it somehow works).
My take: this sounds like a blocked or failed AdBlue injector, not a collapsed catalyst, as the technician told me. If it was collapsed, I'd expect much higher temperatures inside, limp home mode (as the computer tries the protect the turbo from these temps), and a flurry of other fault codes coming up.
I think that Peugeot just don't want to do any fault finding, and instead just rather change the entire system at the expense of the customer. I think that I just need a new AdBlue injector. But am I wrong? Am I missing anything and is this just wishful thinking?
For context, when I challenged the technician and asked for more information he told me that "I don't have to understand this" and that "I should stop making up bullsh*t". I immediately took my car and left.
All main dealers wnt to do (in my experience) is change bits that the computer says.
It might be a blocked injector, it might be a failed sensor, I personally would start with getting everything off & cleaned & inspected if it were mine.
Probably not that they are scamming, just completely inept.
Really, with this adblue s
t the best thing is to get it mapped out if you can because these things are just a f**king disaster. What a scam that a bloody pointless system like that, is allowed to force a shutdown and prevent you driving. It's insane.
if you can find a proper garage that can diagnose and test the system properly it would be helpful, but they are just a nightmare and just another scam forced onto poor motorists by corrupt governments.
I do wonder if they all get backhanders from the adblue/DEF companies.
Really, with this adblue s
t the best thing is to get it mapped out if you can because these things are just a f**king disaster. What a scam that a bloody pointless system like that, is allowed to force a shutdown and prevent you driving. It's insane.if you can find a proper garage that can diagnose and test the system properly it would be helpful, but they are just a nightmare and just another scam forced onto poor motorists by corrupt governments.
I do wonder if they all get backhanders from the adblue/DEF companies.
I had similar with the work Peugeot Partner van. I always keep an eye on the pigs pish. Then one day the range dropped from 1700 miles to will not start in 550miles in the blink of an eye (while I was driving). Basically the AdBlue had run low but the code was stored....... code was cleared then I was advised to top up AdBlue every month or so. So far so good,...........
The problems with AdBlu are nearly always because of the thick crystals that develop on contact with air. It blocks injectors, pipes, sensors, everything it touches really. The only way to get the misbegotten system to be reliable is to frequently top it up, don't wait for the low level warning.
Vsix and Vtec said:
The problems with AdBlu are nearly always because of the thick crystals that develop on contact with air. It blocks injectors, pipes, sensors, everything it touches really. The only way to get the misbegotten system to be reliable is to frequently top it up, don't wait for the low level warning.
Exactly this. Have repeated it on threads time and time again, most ad blue issues are self inflicted. Never run low, too much air in the tank is not good, if the cap is not kept clean and the seal checked, it will cause problems, but not running low helps .
Use whatever size drum you buy in one go, bin what you don't so you are not tempted to use it weeks later.
If you get a range warning act on it. Its for a reason.
If you are at the point that filling and removing codes doesn't work, you can do this yourself with a reader, then the least time, money and aggravation option us delete.
Pour a little onto the floor and see for yourself how quickly it crystallised, then you will be aware that air and AdBlue is something you need to avoid.
Been using it since 2007 when it was on a Daf CF eight wheeler, learnt quickly lol.
stevieturbo said:
Probably not that they are scamming, just completely inept.
Most likely this. In my experience they don't employ real mechanics, people who can actually fault-find. They employ fitters. And they've never worked in another environment so they don't know how inadequate they are. They think what they're doing is normal, including selling customers stuff they don't need at inflated prices. They're not individually malicious, they're just working in a system that has evolved into a restrictive mess. E.g. warranties and financing requiring main dealer servicing, false confidence in vehicle history that states main dealer FSH and an increasing hurdle for independents to be able to access vehicle diagnostics (which could easily be made available through any vaguely modern vehicle's dashboard or exposed as text files on a virtual drive accessed via USB ... there is no excuse at all to require proprietary electronics or software).
ATG said:
stevieturbo said:
Probably not that they are scamming, just completely inept.
Most likely this. In my experience they don't employ real mechanics, people who can actually fault-find. They employ fitters. And they've never worked in another environment so they don't know how inadequate they are. They think what they're doing is normal, including selling customers stuff they don't need at inflated prices. They're not individually malicious, they're just working in a system that has evolved into a restrictive mess. E.g. warranties and financing requiring main dealer servicing, false confidence in vehicle history that states main dealer FSH and an increasing hurdle for independents to be able to access vehicle diagnostics (which could easily be made available through any vaguely modern vehicle's dashboard or exposed as text files on a virtual drive accessed via USB ... there is no excuse at all to require proprietary electronics or software).
But it can be avoided, that's what we have to do these days, gain knowledge about your vehicle, have your own code reader, and never let fluids, fuel, or adblue run low.
If you start getting random warnings, before you do anything else, especially pay for diagnostics, make sure your battery is 100%.
If it is 3 years or older, start with a new one.
Working for main agents I wouldn't take any out of warranty car to them for anything.
I am not normally one to defend a main dealer, but this could be an issue of Peugeot's making, it sounds a lot like a crystallization has blocked the injector, but if Peugeot decided to buy the aftertreatment as complete assembly with the injector already in it, then a main dealer will have to replace the lot because Peugeot will not have a part number for just the injector.
This is where a specialist will help, because they will be able to identify the injector and get a replacement from elsewhere.
This is where a specialist will help, because they will be able to identify the injector and get a replacement from elsewhere.
Megaflow said:
I am not normally one to defend a main dealer, but this could be an issue of Peugeot's making, it sounds a lot like a crystallization has blocked the injector, but if Peugeot decided to buy the aftertreatment as complete assembly with the injector already in it, then a main dealer will have to replace the lot because Peugeot will not have a part number for just the injector.
This is where a specialist will help, because they will be able to identify the injector and get a replacement from elsewhere.
If the injector has blocked the whole AdBlue system needs to be removed and fully cleaned, not the cat and dpf replaced.This is where a specialist will help, because they will be able to identify the injector and get a replacement from elsewhere.
Main agents will not do this, they plug in, read, and replace what the computer tells them to replace.
Before taking any car to them you should read the codes yourself and seek independent advice or you could be giving yourself a world of pain.
Never ever replaced a dpf , cleaned yes, freed up the flow, yes, but replace, not yet.
Never had one fail mot emissions with AdBlue delete or with flow adjusted either.
Thank you for all the replies! The collective mind of PH was indeed correct: crystallised urea was blocking the injector. After disassembling and cleaning it, and clearing the fault codes, everything works fine. A repair for a few hundreds instead of a few thousands. Crucially, nothing needed replacing.
And I suspect the opinion above is correct: Peugeot probably only supplies the whole assembly and the dealer is instructed to replace the whole thing anytime anything goes wrong, instead of "wasting" time to find the actual issue.
And I suspect the opinion above is correct: Peugeot probably only supplies the whole assembly and the dealer is instructed to replace the whole thing anytime anything goes wrong, instead of "wasting" time to find the actual issue.
Doesitdrive said:
Exactly this. Have repeated it on threads time and time again, most ad blue issues are self inflicted.
Never run low, too much air in the tank is not good, if the cap is not kept clean and the seal checked, it will cause problems, but not running low helps .
Use whatever size drum you buy in one go, bin what you don't so you are not tempted to use it weeks later.
If you get a range warning act on it. Its for a reason.
If you are at the point that filling and removing codes doesn't work, you can do this yourself with a reader, then the least time, money and aggravation option us delete.
Pour a little onto the floor and see for yourself how quickly it crystallised, then you will be aware that air and AdBlue is something you need to avoid.
Been using it since 2007 when it was on a Daf CF eight wheeler, learnt quickly lol.
most cars you will have no idea how much is in the tank, as there is no gauge !!Never run low, too much air in the tank is not good, if the cap is not kept clean and the seal checked, it will cause problems, but not running low helps .
Use whatever size drum you buy in one go, bin what you don't so you are not tempted to use it weeks later.
If you get a range warning act on it. Its for a reason.
If you are at the point that filling and removing codes doesn't work, you can do this yourself with a reader, then the least time, money and aggravation option us delete.
Pour a little onto the floor and see for yourself how quickly it crystallised, then you will be aware that air and AdBlue is something you need to avoid.
Been using it since 2007 when it was on a Daf CF eight wheeler, learnt quickly lol.
One of my vans gives a value, but it's only a calculated value, not actual level which seems totally bizarre.
My daily car has no gauge at all, just it pops up a warning you need to fill which for me seems to be roughly every 5k.
Then some say not to overfill....well how the f
k are you not going to overfill, if you've no bloody clue how much it needs to fill !! And the flap on the thing says when filling use at least 10L I think it is.The lack of a level is I suspect due to the way the stuff forms crystals on every surface it touches. I can well believe they initially tried it with a level but abandoned it when the sensor kept failing as the tank got more empty and the mechanism became entombed in crystals, freezing the reading in place and giving a false displayed value.
Vsix and Vtec said:
The lack of a level is I suspect due to the way the stuff forms crystals on every surface it touches. I can well believe they initially tried it with a level but abandoned it when the sensor kept failing as the tank got more empty and the mechanism became entombed in crystals, freezing the reading in place and giving a false displayed value.
My Iveco works perfectly accurate and on its way to 120k and over 3 years old now. Gives a percentage shown constantly, it must be in every cars menu somewhere.
I am not buying the crystal causing issues, if it has crystals in the tank it would have other issues very quickly, it is not supposed to crystal in the tank, and that is why keeping it topped up, making sure cap seal is clean and sealing are so important.
I certainly wouldn't want to be guessing at levels, and would be buying the 5 litre bottles from pound land and topping it up regularly lol.
Or even paying the 1.75 a litre to use a garage pump when getting fuel.
Doesitdrive said:
My Iveco works perfectly accurate and on its way to 120k and over 3 years old now.
Gives a percentage shown constantly, it must be in every cars menu somewhere.
I am not buying the crystal causing issues, if it has crystals in the tank it would have other issues very quickly, it is not supposed to crystal in the tank, and that is why keeping it topped up, making sure cap seal is clean and sealing are so important.
I certainly wouldn't want to be guessing at levels, and would be buying the 5 litre bottles from pound land and topping it up regularly lol.
Or even paying the 1.75 a litre to use a garage pump when getting fuel.
Fair enough, my only experience is in my little Peugeot Partner. All i have is a "10 Ltr +" sticker on my filler door. Its a rental van so I do what I know i shouldn't, and use the 1,500 miles to empty warning as my cue to top up with a big box of it.Gives a percentage shown constantly, it must be in every cars menu somewhere.
I am not buying the crystal causing issues, if it has crystals in the tank it would have other issues very quickly, it is not supposed to crystal in the tank, and that is why keeping it topped up, making sure cap seal is clean and sealing are so important.
I certainly wouldn't want to be guessing at levels, and would be buying the 5 litre bottles from pound land and topping it up regularly lol.
Or even paying the 1.75 a litre to use a garage pump when getting fuel.
Megaflow said:
I am not normally one to defend a main dealer, but this could be an issue of Peugeot's making, it sounds a lot like a crystallization has blocked the injector, but if Peugeot decided to buy the aftertreatment as complete assembly with the injector already in it, then a main dealer will have to replace the lot because Peugeot will not have a part number for just the injector.
This is where a specialist will help, because they will be able to identify the injector and get a replacement from elsewhere.
Working as I do in product development in the Truck industry, I'm not sure that your logic is always totally correct. But often is in the car industry. This is where a specialist will help, because they will be able to identify the injector and get a replacement from elsewhere.
We certainly sell service and repair parts for almost all our subassemblies and that's part of the contract negotiation when we pick suppliers. Most of our service manuals are very detailed and a half decent mechanic has all the information to only replace the bits that they need to.
Plus we expect most suppliers to do remanufactured subassemblies, so our dealers return parts to us and gain a credit, and we return them back to the manufacturer and get a credit and the parts get reused, refurbed, back working as new tested on the original production equipment, and they sell them to our parts network at a fraction of the new price and we sell them back to the dealers with a mark up. The dealers should offer new or reman alternatives if available for customer to choose.
Doesitdrive said:
My Iveco works perfectly accurate and on its way to 120k and over 3 years old now.
Gives a percentage shown constantly, it must be in every cars menu somewhere.
I am not buying the crystal causing issues, if it has crystals in the tank it would have other issues very quickly, it is not supposed to crystal in the tank, and that is why keeping it topped up, making sure cap seal is clean and sealing are so important.
I certainly wouldn't want to be guessing at levels, and would be buying the 5 litre bottles from pound land and topping it up regularly lol.
Or even paying the 1.75 a litre to use a garage pump when getting fuel.
My van is an Iveco, the value on the dash is a calculated value not an actual value. The scan tool states this. As to why it does not indicate an actual value ( which is also one of the values available although on mine did not work and had a mind of its own ) I have no idea.Gives a percentage shown constantly, it must be in every cars menu somewhere.
I am not buying the crystal causing issues, if it has crystals in the tank it would have other issues very quickly, it is not supposed to crystal in the tank, and that is why keeping it topped up, making sure cap seal is clean and sealing are so important.
I certainly wouldn't want to be guessing at levels, and would be buying the 5 litre bottles from pound land and topping it up regularly lol.
Or even paying the 1.75 a litre to use a garage pump when getting fuel.
It's not supposed to do a lot of things, they are supposed to be reliable systems for some mysterious benefit........the reality is quite different
If you go onto the Iveco Daily help group on FB....the amount of people with adblue, and many other faults is actually pretty scary. Almost as many people with problems, as reports of dealers who are clueless how to deal with the faults.
Pit Pony said:
Megaflow said:
I am not normally one to defend a main dealer, but this could be an issue of Peugeot's making, it sounds a lot like a crystallization has blocked the injector, but if Peugeot decided to buy the aftertreatment as complete assembly with the injector already in it, then a main dealer will have to replace the lot because Peugeot will not have a part number for just the injector.
This is where a specialist will help, because they will be able to identify the injector and get a replacement from elsewhere.
Working as I do in product development in the Truck industry, I'm not sure that your logic is always totally correct. But often is in the car industry. This is where a specialist will help, because they will be able to identify the injector and get a replacement from elsewhere.
We certainly sell service and repair parts for almost all our subassemblies and that's part of the contract negotiation when we pick suppliers. Most of our service manuals are very detailed and a half decent mechanic has all the information to only replace the bits that they need to.
Plus we expect most suppliers to do remanufactured subassemblies, so our dealers return parts to us and gain a credit, and we return them back to the manufacturer and get a credit and the parts get reused, refurbed, back working as new tested on the original production equipment, and they sell them to our parts network at a fraction of the new price and we sell them back to the dealers with a mark up. The dealers should offer new or reman alternatives if available for customer to choose.
I now work in off highway and we are much the same as trucks.
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