Motorsport / Aftermarket ECUs & Map questions

[Silent1]

So following on from my last thread about learning to map my own car i have some questions.

I currently have a 2002 supercharged MINI cooper s (R53) which is running 260bhp estimated at the flywheel from a chassis dyno, i can't find the at the wheel figures right now but IIRC it's around 220bhp.
The only problem is that the engine has issues with high (relative) amounts of boost because past 18 psi the MAP sensor either cant read it or the ecu can't interpret it (i'm not sure but the former i think is more likely) which is common to all R53 minis, this is an issue because mine will hit 18psi in every gear in winter and in the summer it's only just under and will occasionally blip over, this turns off the traction control but more seriously it will start pinking the second this happens.
Also the traction/stability control is outright dangerous at times, if it detects a loss of traction it cuts all the throttler and then keeps it off unless you completely let off or wait 3 seconds and it feeds it back in but at a violently fast ramp rate, now it's not really an issue because i don't drive setting it off usually but equally i think it's crap and could be improved.

So what i'm getting to is, i primarily want to fix the ECU not being able to see more than 18psi of boost and i also want the map to be much better and something i can look at (not change, just look at to learn from) once someone else has mapped it for me, i would also like to be able to reconfigure the traction control and stability control into something more useful.
Other things i would like but aren't vital are:
The ability to run ethanol with a flex fuel sensor that varies the mapping depending on the %age of ethanol in the fuel, not just a switch between 2 maps more of a blending between maps.
The ability to run some sort of water/methanol/a.n.other liquid injection depending on certain variables, be that heat, detonation, throttle position etc.
A way to log/display data would be nice so i can either download it later or view it live in the car on a small display, just things like intake temperature, egt and egr etc.
A way for me to map it and not have to crack the tuners password on my ecu!

I think the only proper way to do this is by changing the ecu for an aftermarket one, if i do this is there a way to retain all of the cars features like cruise control and the on board computer which displays to the tv in the dash? Or can you run the ECUs in parallel so the mini ecu is doing everything body wise (like a BCU?) and the new ecu is just doing the engine?

I have no intention of getting rid of the car because i've done 200,000 miles in it, the engine is heavily modified and therefore to anyone else it's worthless, i intend to keep it forever and rebuild the engine and chassis as necessary, so when it comes to the ECU i'd like to do it properly, i don't want to go and spend a fortune on kit i dont need but equally i'm happy with buying whatever is suitable.

So what do you think would be the best for my situation and how much am i looking at roughly?

TL:DR I have a mini that cant read more than 18 psi of boost, i want to fix this by changing the ecu, i also want to run ethanol and keep all of the things in the car like cruise control and on board computer, i intend on keeping the car forever and rebuilding as necessary so i don't want to do it cheap, i want to do it good, what is suitable and how much should it cost.

[stevieturbo]

Really if you're considering taking this task on, and want it fully integrated with the car you're into a huge project unless you are going to buy a plug n play solution that already exists.

I would normally recommend Syvecs, but unless someone has already done such an install...as said it will be a huge undertaking. You could give them a call and ask though. But it will do everything you want.

A piggyback install is possible too, but again this is going to be lots of DIY and very labour/learning intensive vs a plug in option.

But a quick google brings up these

Link is a decent system and should cover pretty much all of what you need...except perhaps cruise control

http://www.linkecu.com/MINIPlus

Vipec list too, effectively they are the same company as Link, not even sure if the Vipec leg still exist as a separate entity now though, so would still contact Link.

http://www.aceperformancesystems.com/imini/
http://www.cougar-raceparts.com/product_detail/207...

Looks like these guys have got Specialist Components to build a system for them, but if going down this route I've heard some do lock the software so you'd need to be sure they dont if you want to explore.

http://www.1320.co.uk/1320-ec2-plug-play-ecu-for-b...

I'm surprised that via the OEM ecu it isnt more capable in allowing more boost etc. Is it not a popular application ? Are there no proper remap software options for them ?

eg something like this ? ( I've never used it )

http://bytetronik.com/fa.html

[anonymous-user]

An aftermarket ecu will be able to do basic "Traction control" but even then it'll be pretty rough. But trying to get an OEM level of "stability control" will just not be possible.

One issue you have with heavily boosted cars on large plenums is that is is very difficult to reduce torque quickly, because even if you slam the throttle shut, you have a plenum full of high pressure air to burn. You will find you need to also retard or cut ignition as well, something aftermarket ecus are reasonable good at (but no where near what you would call a production std)


The biggest issue will be keeping the functionality of the rest of the car working. I think you need to be realistic on this one, and decide what is and what isn't critical. For me, keeping the main instrument cluster and climate controls working would be critical, but i'd probably not bother with Immo/ICE/NAV and i'd have to think long and hard what to do with ABS / DSC etc (keeping basic ABS would be do-able, using module from an earlier car, but the calibration probably wouldn't be optimal, so you'd want to be able to turn it off for track work etc (which is easy)).

In all cases i suggest you start reading up on CAN (Controller Area Network) as you're going to need that knowledge!



PS (you can easily fit a higher rated MAP sensor to the std ecu and just re-cal that (someone must have hacked it by now)

[Silent1]

Thanks for the answers guys

Max, so my aim with this car isn't anything too radical because it's the OH's daily driver as well as being something i dick about with, subsequently i'm limited it what i can do as she's not too accepting of a loss of spec, she wouldn't let me change it for a R53 GP a few years ago because it's too noisy and impractical!

With regards to nav, the R53s run the same system as the rover 75, first gen X5, etc (and bentley IIRC) which i think is a standalone unit because there's a box under the drivers seat which contains the dvd reader but it's far too big to just be a reader.
The nav is displayed on a screen in the middle where you would normally have the speedo, so in my car i have to binnacles on the column instead of one that only displays the rpm.

I would be happy to lose the binnacles for something like a stack dash because when you have nav in an R53 you lose the temperature gauge anyway as it's normally inside the speedo, i think if i lost the nav function i would struggle to get it past the war department though as she has the navigational ability of the squirrel from ice age, also it would pretty much render the centre console redundant, the same with the climate control, that would have to be kept and as it's automatic i have no idea how much the ecu is involved.

I'm inclined to think that this mini is fairly old school in the electronics department primarily because it was designed by rover and really doesn't actually have much in the way of electronic devices and gadgets compared to cars from '10 onwards.

With regard to the ECU having been hacked, i don't think it has because i could see a lot of people paying to be able to fit a better MAP sensor and sort this fairly major issue on tuned minis.

I have a background in IT so perhaps i really should be looking into hacking the ecu, because right now just being able to fit a better map sensor would go a long way to improving the car. i guess a (dodgy?) way of doing it would be fitting an in line encoder so that the ecu still sees no more than 18 psi but in fact you're taking the pressure and multiplying it by .66 giving you 27 psi of range and just mapping the car to suit that, i have no idea if that's feasible though and if it would cock over the ecu.

Where would be a good place to start looking to see if people have hacked the ECU? they're certainly capable of tuning them but i don't know if that means they can also edit the rest of it or not.

[AW111]

MAP sensors come in various ranges.
A 2 bar sensor may read say 4.9 volts at 2 bar.
A 4 bar sensor would read 4.9 volts at 4 bar.
By swapping map sensors, you are scaling down the boost signal you feed to the ecu. This works if you can then reprogram the ecu , eg inject more fuel / retard timing to suit the scaled readings.

Edited because I mis-remembered the upper scale : amended figures are for GM sensors.

Edited by AW111 on Tuesday 23 February 12:37

[stevieturbo]

Silent1 said:

Thanks for the answers guys


Where would be a good place to start looking to see if people have hacked the ECU? they're certainly capable of tuning them but i don't know if that means they can also edit the rest of it or not.

the link I clearly provided would suggest it has already been hacked.

[Krikkit]

Silent1 said:

I have a background in IT so perhaps i really should be looking into hacking the ecu, because right now just being able to fit a better map sensor would go a long way to improving the car. i guess a (dodgy?) way of doing it would be fitting an in line encoder so that the ecu still sees no more than 18 psi but in fact you're taking the pressure and multiplying it by .66 giving you 27 psi of range and just mapping the car to suit that, i have no idea if that's feasible though and if it would cock over the ecu.

Where would be a good place to start looking to see if people have hacked the ECU? they're certainly capable of tuning them but i don't know if that means they can also edit the rest of it or not.

In principle that could be workable, but how much resolution do you need from the sensor? Compressing its range will reduce your resolution.

[stevieturbo]

Krikkit said:

In principle that could be workable, but how much resolution do you need from the sensor? Compressing its range will reduce your resolution.

Make little odds.

No different that the easier and cheaper method of just installing a different map sensor for teh range you want or need.

Ultimately as said already it just outputs a voltage, what you then do with that voltage is up to you. Obviously it's nice if any numbers on tuning software reflect reality, but even that isnt critical as long as you understand what the numbers mean and tune accordingly.

[anonymous-user]

First job i would do is be getting all the cars wiring diagrams, and printing them out and going through each one understanding what the "Network" is like. IE, what signals (hardwired and serial ie CAN etc) does the NAV get from the rest of the car (or the dash, the ABS, the HVAC etc etc) That will tell you what is likely to stop working if you move to an aftermarket ecu.

IME, you'll never get close to the OEM useability on an aftermarket ecu unless you a) spend a lot of time and money getting your ecu supplier to write you custom code functions and b) spend even more time and money correctly calibrating those functions. Even on an "Old" car like your mini the std ecu has probably 25,000 lines of code and 5 thousand calibratable values, and that's before we get to the support systems like ABS, etc etc


For a car that is still going to be a daily, an aftermarket ecu would be a major no-no to me. I'd change the map sensor and work out how to rescale the load axes in the std ecu to suit. Worst case (and frankly horrible horrible bodge, but it would work) is to fit an after market piggy back ecu between the std ecu and the injectors, coils and MAP sensor. Use it to clamp the MAP output to the std ecu, but extend pulse width and modify ign angle in Near Real Time(1 cycle behind of course).


Better to map std ecu though!