ATF/sealed auto boxes...?
Discussion
So I've had my first car with an auto box for a couple of years now. Although it's 10 years old, it only has 31000 on the clock.
I only do about 8000 miles a years, so get it serviced annually.
But it's occurred to me that the ATF has probably never been changed. Everything I read on the web says that it should be changed every 50k or so, but my mechanic (whom I've known over 20 years) says leave it alone - he believes that auto boxes can develop issues if you change it when you're not supposed to.
I know he, like anybody else, isn't infallible, but he's worked on an awful lot of cars over a 40 year career, so has seen everything I suppose.
What do people think? Car's a 2015 Insignia CDTI, if that helps.
Thanks
I only do about 8000 miles a years, so get it serviced annually.
But it's occurred to me that the ATF has probably never been changed. Everything I read on the web says that it should be changed every 50k or so, but my mechanic (whom I've known over 20 years) says leave it alone - he believes that auto boxes can develop issues if you change it when you're not supposed to.
I know he, like anybody else, isn't infallible, but he's worked on an awful lot of cars over a 40 year career, so has seen everything I suppose.
What do people think? Car's a 2015 Insignia CDTI, if that helps.
Thanks
Hogweed said:
So I've had my first car with an auto box for a couple of years now. Although it's 10 years old, it only has 31000 on the clock.
I only do about 8000 miles a years, so get it serviced annually.
But it's occurred to me that the ATF has probably never been changed. Everything I read on the web says that it should be changed every 50k or so, but my mechanic (whom I've known over 20 years) says leave it alone - he believes that auto boxes can develop issues if you change it when you're not supposed to.
I know he, like anybody else, isn't infallible, but he's worked on an awful lot of cars over a 40 year career, so has seen everything I suppose.
What do people think? Car's a 2015 Insignia CDTI, if that helps.
Thanks
That's such an ignorant opinion but even Mercedes has given different instructions for the same 7G-tronic gearbox in different cars from every 35K miles to "sealed for life".I only do about 8000 miles a years, so get it serviced annually.
But it's occurred to me that the ATF has probably never been changed. Everything I read on the web says that it should be changed every 50k or so, but my mechanic (whom I've known over 20 years) says leave it alone - he believes that auto boxes can develop issues if you change it when you're not supposed to.
I know he, like anybody else, isn't infallible, but he's worked on an awful lot of cars over a 40 year career, so has seen everything I suppose.
What do people think? Car's a 2015 Insignia CDTI, if that helps.
Thanks
All mechanical components need maintenance. Change the fluid at least every 50K miles. I'd do it more frequently - I do mine every 30K miles (well, I "have" someone else do it every 30K miles). You can tell it needs it because it's a different colour coming out than when it goes in.
You'll also find that a Sealed-For-Life autobox in one country will have a 10,000 mile pan drain and fill service interval in another!
Get a full change done for the first time then (if it's easy) switch to a regular drain and fill if it's easy. The pain now is there are plenty of boxes that need a song and dance to top up to the right level.
Get a full change done for the first time then (if it's easy) switch to a regular drain and fill if it's easy. The pain now is there are plenty of boxes that need a song and dance to top up to the right level.
Modern auto boxes are complex bits of kit - I own three cars with Aisin Warner boxes each of them has a different fill / level setting procedure.
Id say your back street mechanics knowledge doesn t cover the breadth of modern cars hence the leave it alone comment whereas a Vauxhall independent specialist should know how to service the box.
Out of my three boxes - only one of them takes ATF (WS type), the other two take 3309. Do not use the wrong oil or damage will occur
Id say your back street mechanics knowledge doesn t cover the breadth of modern cars hence the leave it alone comment whereas a Vauxhall independent specialist should know how to service the box.
Out of my three boxes - only one of them takes ATF (WS type), the other two take 3309. Do not use the wrong oil or damage will occur
Edited by RustyNissanPrairie on Tuesday 13th January 09:21
I'd go for the 50 - 70K change.
My son bought a low mileage Citroen C3 (slush box auto) and decided to change the gearbox oil. The difference was dramatic. It worked OK before, now the changes are more akin the a manual. Crisp & precise.
He did, however, go for the expensive option - the gearbox specialists he used didn't just drain & refill. Apparantly there's quite a lot of the old oil left in the box doing it that way. Instead they flushed the old oil out with new until it ran clear. More expensive, but I reckon worth it.
As already said, it seem that "sealed for life" means just that - and also means that the life is shorter.
My son bought a low mileage Citroen C3 (slush box auto) and decided to change the gearbox oil. The difference was dramatic. It worked OK before, now the changes are more akin the a manual. Crisp & precise.
He did, however, go for the expensive option - the gearbox specialists he used didn't just drain & refill. Apparantly there's quite a lot of the old oil left in the box doing it that way. Instead they flushed the old oil out with new until it ran clear. More expensive, but I reckon worth it.
As already said, it seem that "sealed for life" means just that - and also means that the life is shorter.
Callerton said:
I'd go for the 50 - 70K change.
My son bought a low mileage Citroen C3 (slush box auto) and decided to change the gearbox oil. The difference was dramatic. It worked OK before, now the changes are more akin the a manual. Crisp & precise.
He did, however, go for the expensive option - the gearbox specialists he used didn't just drain & refill. Apparantly there's quite a lot of the old oil left in the box doing it that way. Instead they flushed the old oil out with new until it ran clear. More expensive, but I reckon worth it.
As already said, it seem that "sealed for life" means just that - and also means that the life is shorter.
For the Mercedes 7G-Tronic there is a specific drain procedure that involves rotating the torque converter amongst other activities. It's probably the same for most/all auto boxes. Then, if you change the fluid at ~30K intervals, there shouldn't be the need to flush the old fluid out. I'm suspicious of engine flush products (and the procedure) however I don't think that suspicion carries over for gearboxes.My son bought a low mileage Citroen C3 (slush box auto) and decided to change the gearbox oil. The difference was dramatic. It worked OK before, now the changes are more akin the a manual. Crisp & precise.
He did, however, go for the expensive option - the gearbox specialists he used didn't just drain & refill. Apparantly there's quite a lot of the old oil left in the box doing it that way. Instead they flushed the old oil out with new until it ran clear. More expensive, but I reckon worth it.
As already said, it seem that "sealed for life" means just that - and also means that the life is shorter.
Read about this in relation to an BMW X5 I had. Lots of discussion online about how BMW said sealed for life, but ZF said oil changes are 100,000 miles.
When challenged to explain BMW said that their cars are designed for a life of 100,000 miles therefore the car should be replaced/scrapped before the oil change is due.
but in reality with care and maintenance they can and do last longer. When this happens the "for life" components may then qualify for additional maintenance.
When challenged to explain BMW said that their cars are designed for a life of 100,000 miles therefore the car should be replaced/scrapped before the oil change is due.
but in reality with care and maintenance they can and do last longer. When this happens the "for life" components may then qualify for additional maintenance.
Buzz84 said:
Read about this in relation to an BMW X5 I had. Lots of discussion online about how BMW said sealed for life, but ZF said oil changes are 100,000 miles.
When challenged to explain BMW said that their cars are designed for a life of 100,000 miles therefore the car should be replaced/scrapped before the oil change is due.
but in reality with care and maintenance they can and do last longer. When this happens the "for life" components may then qualify for additional maintenance.
Hang on, BMW say their cars are only designed to do 160,000 kms.....do you have a source for this? When challenged to explain BMW said that their cars are designed for a life of 100,000 miles therefore the car should be replaced/scrapped before the oil change is due.
but in reality with care and maintenance they can and do last longer. When this happens the "for life" components may then qualify for additional maintenance.
Would certainly put me off ever buying a BMW (not that I plan to tbf).
vikingaero said:
It's funny how all these "sealed boxes" have drain/fill plugs and filters.....
Even if the fluid wasn't meant to be changed, it's not a sealed box - with a seperate oil cooler there's lots of reasons it might need topping up.I removed an engine but left the box in the car and the gearbox oil cooler pipes got in the way - had to remove the pipes, and then top up afterwards.
Hogweed said:
Thanks for all the useful replies - how long is a piece of string anyway 
Can't help reflecting that my old Rover 75 never had the gearbox fluid changed in 200,000 miles - I expect a manual box is a lot less stressed, but still...
The fluid in an automatic box with a torque converter actually transmits the power from the engine to the gears (until it locks), that's why revs can appear independent of wheel speed to some extent. It does a lot of work!Can't help reflecting that my old Rover 75 never had the gearbox fluid changed in 200,000 miles - I expect a manual box is a lot less stressed, but still...
In a manual, it's lubrication.
I agree with your experienced mechanic. I have also read the opinion of an impartial qualified expert (how many pundits on here are unqualified mechanics with a conflict of interest?) advising to leave well alone. If disturbed, particles can get into the delicate valve body and cause problems. The original ZF blurb for their ubiquitous 'sealed for life' 5, 6 and 8 HP boxes suggest fluid changes only if 'arduous use'. Oil in a sealed container doesn't go off with age - I have no intention of changing the fluid in my 20yr old A8's HP6, and the ATF in my 45yr old TR7's LT77 is mostly original (it leaks slightly).
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