Gear change problems?
Discussion
Afternoon all,
The wife's suzuku swift 1.5 is really hard to change gear in, making it un drivable.
Background
-done about 100,000, clutch biting point really high, some slippage in high gears
- new clutch put in by me (exedy plate, friction disc and new release bearing) a few weeks back
- clutch immediately impossible to change gears in. And with the clutch fully pressed, the car creeps forward.
Its a hydraulic clutch, with no pedal adjustment. I didn't touch the hydraulic system.
- 1st attempt - I rotated the clutch form arm 1 spline towards the slave cylinder, so that the slave presses the clutch earlier. This made the car somewhat drivable, but still a bit crunchy.
- 2nd attempt - I looked at the slave, and the plastic engagement arm had broken off about 1cm from the end.. so i bought a new slave cylinder and swapped over the longer arm.
I thought this would be a slam dunk fix, but no- the gears are still crunchy.
The biting point is also on the floor- it foot full down, it's OK, but you lift up a toe and it's moving. So it has gone from one extreme to the other with a new clutch, but I can't believe this is how suzuki sold them.
Worst still, the clutch gets worse as you drive. So a short test drive is fine, but after 5-10 miles it gets harder and harder to change gears (ie clutch not being disengaged fully), before becoming impossible to shift without turning the engine off, and then starting it with the clutch down.
Edit- just test drove it, and it's back to creeping forward with the pedal.fully down. It didn't do this on Saturday, and then was OK Sunday and got worse during Monday (today).
Ultimately I need to sort it. Options I can think of
1. fit the new slave entirely (ie hydraulic bit) as maybe the slave is leaking and not pushing hard enough? But the car doesn't have the normal symptoms of a failed slave (which is the pedal staying on the floor) or fluid leaks (none)
2. Maybe i put the clutch on back to front? Highly unlikely as they generally fit just one way.
3. Maybe a clutch plate spring is broken? But thr doesn't explain it getting worse. This means gearbox off again (but it should be quicker second time, right?)
4. Some sort of heat soak into the clutch fluid making the clutch fail? (Mr2 turbos used to get this when the clutch slave heat shield wasn't put back on, but I doubt this engine bay is getting that hot)
Any thoughts, ideas, or experience are welcome!
And of course sods law we had lovely weather all last week, and this week is forecast to rain.
The wife's suzuku swift 1.5 is really hard to change gear in, making it un drivable.
Background
-done about 100,000, clutch biting point really high, some slippage in high gears
- new clutch put in by me (exedy plate, friction disc and new release bearing) a few weeks back
- clutch immediately impossible to change gears in. And with the clutch fully pressed, the car creeps forward.
Its a hydraulic clutch, with no pedal adjustment. I didn't touch the hydraulic system.
- 1st attempt - I rotated the clutch form arm 1 spline towards the slave cylinder, so that the slave presses the clutch earlier. This made the car somewhat drivable, but still a bit crunchy.
- 2nd attempt - I looked at the slave, and the plastic engagement arm had broken off about 1cm from the end.. so i bought a new slave cylinder and swapped over the longer arm.
I thought this would be a slam dunk fix, but no- the gears are still crunchy.
The biting point is also on the floor- it foot full down, it's OK, but you lift up a toe and it's moving. So it has gone from one extreme to the other with a new clutch, but I can't believe this is how suzuki sold them.
Worst still, the clutch gets worse as you drive. So a short test drive is fine, but after 5-10 miles it gets harder and harder to change gears (ie clutch not being disengaged fully), before becoming impossible to shift without turning the engine off, and then starting it with the clutch down.
Edit- just test drove it, and it's back to creeping forward with the pedal.fully down. It didn't do this on Saturday, and then was OK Sunday and got worse during Monday (today).
Ultimately I need to sort it. Options I can think of
1. fit the new slave entirely (ie hydraulic bit) as maybe the slave is leaking and not pushing hard enough? But the car doesn't have the normal symptoms of a failed slave (which is the pedal staying on the floor) or fluid leaks (none)
2. Maybe i put the clutch on back to front? Highly unlikely as they generally fit just one way.
3. Maybe a clutch plate spring is broken? But thr doesn't explain it getting worse. This means gearbox off again (but it should be quicker second time, right?)
4. Some sort of heat soak into the clutch fluid making the clutch fail? (Mr2 turbos used to get this when the clutch slave heat shield wasn't put back on, but I doubt this engine bay is getting that hot)
Any thoughts, ideas, or experience are welcome!
And of course sods law we had lovely weather all last week, and this week is forecast to rain.
Edited by Ian Geary on Monday 1st June 19:13
I had similar issues with mh old MR2 years ago. New aftermarket clutch fitted, and the bite was almost on the floor and lots of grinding to engage gears.
If you revved the nadgers off it, the engine speed would overcome the drag of the clutch allowing a grind-free engagement.
The fix? Fitted a genuine Toyota clutch.
Managed to get the gearbox off in under 2 hours the second time, so there is that....
I posted in another thread a little while ago, that if a genuine clutch is still available, that's all I would fit for that reason (plus another aftermarket one in a different car that slipped under load from brand new!)
If you revved the nadgers off it, the engine speed would overcome the drag of the clutch allowing a grind-free engagement.
The fix? Fitted a genuine Toyota clutch.
Managed to get the gearbox off in under 2 hours the second time, so there is that....
I posted in another thread a little while ago, that if a genuine clutch is still available, that's all I would fit for that reason (plus another aftermarket one in a different car that slipped under load from brand new!)
Thanks for the replies. Now the rain has stopped i will put the new slave on tomorrow and bleed it through. Although I didn't open the fluid circuit, I have pushed the piston around a lot.
But I have earmarked the weekend to remove the clutch again as I need both cars back next week.
It was an exedy clutch which i have seen used a lot as replacement on the mk3 swift. It was only £50 for the whole kit though, which i thought a bargain.
2 hours is good for the box removal - I had a mk2 mr2 and remembered being able to get the sub frame off in just a few minutes,
But I have earmarked the weekend to remove the clutch again as I need both cars back next week.
It was an exedy clutch which i have seen used a lot as replacement on the mk3 swift. It was only £50 for the whole kit though, which i thought a bargain.
2 hours is good for the box removal - I had a mk2 mr2 and remembered being able to get the sub frame off in just a few minutes,
Update for anyone interested.
I had already bought a cheap ass slave cylider to get the new, unbroken push rod.
To rule out any problem in the oe slave, I tried swapping it over- only to realise after a while the clip for fluid hose was badly built, and wouldn't hold the hose in place
(It's a weird plug and play hose where you pull it pit one click to bleed, and secure with an "omega" spring clip.
Anyway, loads of fluid spilt, but managed to track down a slave this morning at gsf crawley. I also got a valeo clutch just in case.
Cue more faffing to bleed this new, new one (i use a pressure bleeder with a pump handle that fits on the master cylidet)
But ultimately, the clutch is only moving the slave rod about 1 -2 cm - it's just not enough to seperate the clutch.
The cylinder has perhaps 6 cm of travel, but having never studied the slave cylinder whilst people change gear in a swift, I have no way of knowing what is normal.
It potentially could be a mater cylinder problem?
Bur because it was working before I did the clutch, I will assume it is a clutch fork mechanism issue.
So between rain showers i will be spending the day rolling round on my drive.
Luckily it's not an awful car to work on, but I could do without it to be honest.
Ps i looked at the old clutch - the friction plate has a distinctive shape where the springs go that fit into the clutch cover - i don't think it is even possible to put it in the wrong way round. But the alignment of the clutch fork and bearing might be the issue.
I had already bought a cheap ass slave cylider to get the new, unbroken push rod.
To rule out any problem in the oe slave, I tried swapping it over- only to realise after a while the clip for fluid hose was badly built, and wouldn't hold the hose in place
(It's a weird plug and play hose where you pull it pit one click to bleed, and secure with an "omega" spring clip.
Anyway, loads of fluid spilt, but managed to track down a slave this morning at gsf crawley. I also got a valeo clutch just in case.
Cue more faffing to bleed this new, new one (i use a pressure bleeder with a pump handle that fits on the master cylidet)
But ultimately, the clutch is only moving the slave rod about 1 -2 cm - it's just not enough to seperate the clutch.
The cylinder has perhaps 6 cm of travel, but having never studied the slave cylinder whilst people change gear in a swift, I have no way of knowing what is normal.
It potentially could be a mater cylinder problem?
Bur because it was working before I did the clutch, I will assume it is a clutch fork mechanism issue.
So between rain showers i will be spending the day rolling round on my drive.
Luckily it's not an awful car to work on, but I could do without it to be honest.
Ps i looked at the old clutch - the friction plate has a distinctive shape where the springs go that fit into the clutch cover - i don't think it is even possible to put it in the wrong way round. But the alignment of the clutch fork and bearing might be the issue.
Ian Geary said:
But ultimately, the clutch is only moving the slave rod about 1 -2 cm - it's just not enough to seperate the clutch.
Surely, this is where you need to be looking then?If there is not enough movement to "separate the clutch" that is your problem.
With the help of someone else closely watch the slave as the pedal is slowly pushed.
When at part pedal travel, can you push the piston back?
Does the slave start to move as soon as the pedal is pushed?
Thanks for the comments and interest.
Its a good news/ bad news situation for me.
Whilst having lunch, I spotted a thread from a New Zealand swift thread about cracked clutch forks.
Low and behold , when I got the box off (4 hours ish, half of which in a puddle) there is a visible crack on the lower arm. The bearing moves back and forward very badly
So the good news is I am pretty confident this is a smoking gun, because I like to know what is wrong so that what I am fixing is the right thing (and not just a coincidence)
The bad news is they're another £100 and will take days to get here.
I had bought a second clutch kit from gsf, perhaps I'll take it back and redeem the £112 rather than replace the exedy one with say 50 miles on it.
But it would probably be safer to replace it as the bearing might have been put under stress from the broken fork.
I can't believe I missed a crack like that a month ago (when i did the clutch) , as I cleaned the fork and bell housing up.
Maybe the new, stronger clutch spring was the straw that broke the back.
I am still unsure about how it would work for a bit, then get worse - maybe heat loosened it?
Anyway, I hope the helps someone with a similar problem.
Its a good news/ bad news situation for me.
Whilst having lunch, I spotted a thread from a New Zealand swift thread about cracked clutch forks.
Low and behold , when I got the box off (4 hours ish, half of which in a puddle) there is a visible crack on the lower arm. The bearing moves back and forward very badly
So the good news is I am pretty confident this is a smoking gun, because I like to know what is wrong so that what I am fixing is the right thing (and not just a coincidence)
The bad news is they're another £100 and will take days to get here.
I had bought a second clutch kit from gsf, perhaps I'll take it back and redeem the £112 rather than replace the exedy one with say 50 miles on it.
But it would probably be safer to replace it as the bearing might have been put under stress from the broken fork.
I can't believe I missed a crack like that a month ago (when i did the clutch) , as I cleaned the fork and bell housing up.
Maybe the new, stronger clutch spring was the straw that broke the back.
I am still unsure about how it would work for a bit, then get worse - maybe heat loosened it?
Anyway, I hope the helps someone with a similar problem.
E-bmw said:
Smint said:
finlo said:
I'd be welding that, but then I'm a tight arse.
So would i, and i'm not that tight an arse ish.All day every day & it will make it stronger in the process, 5 minute job with it out of the 'box.
It is seriously bad - like trying to weld a nut on a stud, and it just falls off.
I am not too worried about strength- it's not got to do another 100,000 as the car just doesn't have that life in it.
But I do see your point.
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