I had a reminder today
Discussion
On my way to work this morning had a little reminder of the plus and minus case for an Imprezza (Sti Type Uk PPP)300bhp?
Whilst it has acceleration on a par with 390bhp Roo,(I was behind him),they still have crap breaks (mine did-when I had one, this obviously did/i'm now on AP's). Now the guy could have easily gone round the corners quicker than he did, but I suspect not wanting to kill himself or anyone else kept some sence, but he was hard on the breaks before hand, but took a long time to slow down (ap's weren't even trying)
Which asks the question why makers are willing to use breaking systems that are not upto the engine they put in the cars?
( I include both cars in this comment )
PS I used to have an RX8 (yes,yes I know a diffrent power)but the brakes were fantastic - as are the Ap's now fitted
Whilst it has acceleration on a par with 390bhp Roo,(I was behind him),they still have crap breaks (mine did-when I had one, this obviously did/i'm now on AP's). Now the guy could have easily gone round the corners quicker than he did, but I suspect not wanting to kill himself or anyone else kept some sence, but he was hard on the breaks before hand, but took a long time to slow down (ap's weren't even trying)
Which asks the question why makers are willing to use breaking systems that are not upto the engine they put in the cars?
( I include both cars in this comment )
PS I used to have an RX8 (yes,yes I know a diffrent power)but the brakes were fantastic - as are the Ap's now fitted
featherfoot said:
On my way to work this morning had a little reminder of the plus and minus case for an Imprezza (Sti Type Uk PPP)300bhp?
Whilst it has acceleration on a par with 390bhp Roo,(I was behind him),they still have crap breaks (mine did-when I had one, this obviously did/i'm now on AP's). Now the guy could have easily gone round the corners quicker than he did, but I suspect not wanting to kill himself or anyone else kept some sence, but he was hard on the breaks before hand, but took a long time to slow down (ap's weren't even trying)
Which asks the question why makers are willing to use breaking systems that are not upto the engine they put in the cars?
( I include both cars in this comment )
PS I used to have an RX8 (yes,yes I know a diffrent power)but the brakes were fantastic - as are the Ap's now fitted
Whilst it has acceleration on a par with 390bhp Roo,(I was behind him),they still have crap breaks (mine did-when I had one, this obviously did/i'm now on AP's). Now the guy could have easily gone round the corners quicker than he did, but I suspect not wanting to kill himself or anyone else kept some sence, but he was hard on the breaks before hand, but took a long time to slow down (ap's weren't even trying)
Which asks the question why makers are willing to use breaking systems that are not upto the engine they put in the cars?
( I include both cars in this comment )
PS I used to have an RX8 (yes,yes I know a diffrent power)but the brakes were fantastic - as are the Ap's now fitted
Plus cases for owning a Subaru:-
1. In standard form the exhaust note is excellent.
2. You dont tune it as it will blow up.
3. You never have to bother racing an EVO because you know you'll lose.
4. You can drive like an idiot because all assume you are Asian.
Minus cases:-
1. When tuned you lose the excellent exhaust note.
2. When tuned you know a catastrophic blow up is a certainty.
3. Impossible to modify to match an EVO.
4. Everyone assumes you are Asian.
On a serious note a VXR Monaro or HSV GTS + GTSR are quicker than any Scoobys around Oulton Park and tuned GTS and GTSRs match even monster EVOs in the right hands.
Then get to drive the commodore for a week, and then back into the Monaro.. Paul-C said:
featherfoot said:
On my way to work this morning had a little reminder of the plus and minus case for an Imprezza (Sti Type Uk PPP)300bhp?
Plus cases for owning a Subaru:-
1. In standard form the exhaust note is excellent.
2. You dont tune it as it will blow up.
3. You never have to bother racing an EVO because you know you'll lose.
4. You can drive like an idiot because all assume you are Asian.
Minus cases:-
1. When tuned you lose the excellent exhaust note.
2. When tuned you know a catastrophic blow up is a certainty.
3. Impossible to modify to match an EVO.
4. Everyone assumes you are Asian.
On a serious note a VXR Monaro or HSV GTS + GTSR are quicker than any Scoobys around Oulton Park and tuned GTS and GTSRs match even monster EVOs in the right hands.
Paul, that's set some alarm bells ringing as I'm thinking seriously about a www.litchfieldimports.co.uk Forester STi for work. Based on the 2.5 model they are approx 300 and 330BHP via a remap and exhausts.The warranty seems O.K, they come across as a good set of blokes and they are tied up with Powerstation. Any thoughts?
Edited by sjc on Tuesday 13th June 19:15
sjc said:
Paul, that's set some alarm bells ringing as I'm thinking seriously about a www.litchfieldimports.co.uk Forester STi for work. Based on the 2.5 model they are approx 300 and 330BHP via a remap and exhausts.The warranty seems O.K, they come across as a good set of blokes and they are tied up with Powerstation. Any thoughts?
Edited by sjc on Tuesday 13th June 19:15
I can only advise from personal experience but based on that I will never own a Subaru again as;
I had one of the first 1800 Turbo Estates in the UK, bought new in 1986. Despite a lot of experience with turbos therefore knew how to look after them, it had 3 turbos in 15 months, got rid when it started to smoke again! There was always at least two others having replacement turbos every time it was trailered back to the dealer.
I bought a RB5 in '99 and had it tuned to 380-ish BHP. It broke. Swopped it for a WRX STi, had it tuned again. It broke. A lot. (You would have thought I'd learnt
) Discovered EVOs. Then discovered HSVs
For what its worth, Paul-C's post just sounds so familiar
I cant speak from 1st hand personal experiance but having seen the brother in law (and a few of his his scoobie clan buddies) do much the same as Paul-C I would say his experiance is far from unusual and could be said to be a good measuring stick
BIL had 2 scoobs and spent loads on both having them professionally upgraded by very reputable and highly respected scoobie tuners. Cant remember the exact model and details but the 1st one was an older lower std powered (240 bhp model) model which was great all the while it was std then lost the lovely sound along with the 1st exhaust upgrade. Few mods later it died before being close to what would be reagrded as ott (worth mentioning at this point that it was done by the book no overboost before the rest of the bits were uprated to handle it etc).
He then he went the same path again but started from a much better base model, a brand new wrx sti. To cut a long story short he saw all the same signs of a repeat experiance approaching after it developed similar probs so fixed and got rid before it went the same way as the last.
As I said not my 1st hand personal experiance but far too familiar sounding to be ignored and I certainly had 1st hand experiance of his heartache and misery!
I cant speak from 1st hand personal experiance but having seen the brother in law (and a few of his his scoobie clan buddies) do much the same as Paul-C I would say his experiance is far from unusual and could be said to be a good measuring stick
BIL had 2 scoobs and spent loads on both having them professionally upgraded by very reputable and highly respected scoobie tuners. Cant remember the exact model and details but the 1st one was an older lower std powered (240 bhp model) model which was great all the while it was std then lost the lovely sound along with the 1st exhaust upgrade. Few mods later it died before being close to what would be reagrded as ott (worth mentioning at this point that it was done by the book no overboost before the rest of the bits were uprated to handle it etc).
He then he went the same path again but started from a much better base model, a brand new wrx sti. To cut a long story short he saw all the same signs of a repeat experiance approaching after it developed similar probs so fixed and got rid before it went the same way as the last.
As I said not my 1st hand personal experiance but far too familiar sounding to be ignored and I certainly had 1st hand experiance of his heartache and misery!
A footnote to my post which is probably relevant.........I tend not to part with performance cars unless I really have to and have become a bit of a collector, but the only ones I have actually got rid off with no hesitation were the Subarus. I should also point out that I have no experience of the Forester model.
Thanks for the replies , thats scuppered things a bit! Been down and driven a couple of them and was impressed, as I like the slightly unusual. May have to rethink. FWIW theres a video on the website www.litchfieldimports.co.uk on it.
IMO a well built and maintained Subaru can be a very reliable car. And they can be tuned the same way.
And I would NEVER choose an Evo over a Subaru. The Subaru is very much a superior car in every respect.
You darent tune an Evo for fear of breaking diffs and burning clutches !! And they are even harder on fuel than any Subaru.
I still dont get these differences in performance either. Having been in both cars, and seen a few race. A new STI is no slouch.
A friends pretty standard 2002 STI ran consistent mid 13sec quarters recently ( in the wet too ). How many standard Monaros are matching that ??
Having also been in several 375-400bhp Subarus, I struggle to believe a 400bhp Monaro would match it, although one certainly wouldnt just walk away from the other either.
And I would NEVER choose an Evo over a Subaru. The Subaru is very much a superior car in every respect.
You darent tune an Evo for fear of breaking diffs and burning clutches !! And they are even harder on fuel than any Subaru.
I still dont get these differences in performance either. Having been in both cars, and seen a few race. A new STI is no slouch.
A friends pretty standard 2002 STI ran consistent mid 13sec quarters recently ( in the wet too ). How many standard Monaros are matching that ??
Having also been in several 375-400bhp Subarus, I struggle to believe a 400bhp Monaro would match it, although one certainly wouldnt just walk away from the other either.
Edited by stevieturbo on Wednesday 14th June 01:25
I'd have thought the power to weight ratio would be enough to scupper the Monaro if faced with a 400 bhp scooby!
Then again there are plenty of muppets down here driving scoobys (NOI to anyone here or their friends relatives or aquaintances who dont have a clue how to change gear properly and that could easily eat any advantage?
But get two equally skilled drivers and I would hazard a guess the scooby would win hands down on weight alone?
Then again there are plenty of muppets down here driving scoobys (NOI to anyone here or their friends relatives or aquaintances
who dont have a clue how to change gear properly and that could easily eat any advantage? But get two equally skilled drivers and I would hazard a guess the scooby would win hands down on weight alone?
StevieTurbo, I understand and agree with the point you make about the performance of the sti's. My point was that ignoring straight line performance, in the real world, the point to point performance would be greatly enhanced by the makers fitting something that resembled a good breaking system from the start, if Subaru had done this then a big lardy 390 bhp Roo would be just a spec in the rear view mirror of a car with nearly 100bhp less without the driver behaving like an arse!
stevieturbo said:
IMO a well built and maintained Subaru can be a very reliable car. And they can be tuned the same way.
And I would NEVER choose an Evo over a Subaru. The Subaru is very much a superior car in every respect.
You darent tune an Evo for fear of breaking diffs and burning clutches !! And they are even harder on fuel than any Subaru.
I still dont get these differences in performance either. Having been in both cars, and seen a few race. A new STI is no slouch.
A friends pretty standard 2002 STI ran consistent mid 13sec quarters recently ( in the wet too ). How many standard Monaros are matching that ??
Having also been in several 375-400bhp Subarus, I struggle to believe a 400bhp Monaro would match it, although one certainly wouldnt just walk away from the other either.
And I would NEVER choose an Evo over a Subaru. The Subaru is very much a superior car in every respect.
You darent tune an Evo for fear of breaking diffs and burning clutches !! And they are even harder on fuel than any Subaru.
I still dont get these differences in performance either. Having been in both cars, and seen a few race. A new STI is no slouch.
A friends pretty standard 2002 STI ran consistent mid 13sec quarters recently ( in the wet too ). How many standard Monaros are matching that ??
Having also been in several 375-400bhp Subarus, I struggle to believe a 400bhp Monaro would match it, although one certainly wouldnt just walk away from the other either.
Edited by stevieturbo on Wednesday 14th June 01:25
I currently have an EVO 6 with circa 400 wheel BHP. It has done 52,000 miles, I would guess at least 60% of that on circuits. Apart from replacing discs and the paddle clutch twice no problems. Mine is the 'least powerful' of my friends EVOs. No Subarus ever come close to our lap times. My Subaru saloons did 16,000 and 11,000 miles before blowing up with under 400 BHP, both tuned by companies with excellent reputations. Both were due to mechanical failures (weaknesses). I have used these companies before and since for different cars with no problems. I can match my best lap time in my GTS R spec HSV.
Just personal experience Stevie. All my family are in NI and I visit regularly. Fancy a meet up if I come in something quick for a play?
The reliabilty issues are still prevalent in the newer Scoobs. I've never had one but have watched from the sidelines as a mate of mine has finally steered away and over to the EVO. Turbos being the major problem as previously mentioned. His last one was and STi with the prodrive kit and well tuned by a well known and respected tuner and again, it wasn't long before the smoke started (oh I forgot, that was the second engine under warranty, the first one put a nice hole through the block!).
As far as performance goes, he loved it and reckons the EVO is close but not quite there.
With regards to even matched drivers in cars both around 400 horses, I fail to see how 400hp through 2 wheels could stay with 400 through 4 in a lighter car, but that's just my opinion. I can't speak from experience as I've not taken one on...yet
As far as performance goes, he loved it and reckons the EVO is close but not quite there.
With regards to even matched drivers in cars both around 400 horses, I fail to see how 400hp through 2 wheels could stay with 400 through 4 in a lighter car, but that's just my opinion. I can't speak from experience as I've not taken one on...yet
woody377 said:
With regards to even matched drivers in cars both around 400 horses, I fail to see how 400hp through 2 wheels could stay with 400 through 4 in a lighter car, but that's just my opinion. I can't speak from experience as I've not taken one on...yet
Easy, parasitic losses through the 4WD are far higher than those through 2WD so a lot less of your 400 horses will be getting to the ground. Main difference in a straight line at least between monaro/HSV and scooburu is the advantage on the launch afforded by 4WD (if you know what your doing) and also a weight advantage.
Also, people forget about torque, if your not in boost on a scooby or evo your going no-where, that's what's great about a big V8, it's always there
Edited by Dan_S V8 on Wednesday 14th June 21:59
Edited by Dan_S V8 on Wednesday 14th June 22:00
Fair comment I guess, it's easy to forget about lag when, like you said, the power for us is always there. Is there really that much more power loss through 4 wheels? I thought the new diffs were supposed to be excellent with regards to loss in the power train.
Anyway, you learn something new every day and that was mine. Cheers
Anyway, you learn something new every day and that was mine. Cheers
woody377 said:
Fair comment I guess, it's easy to forget about lag when, like you said, the power for us is always there. Is there really that much more power loss through 4 wheels? I thought the new diffs were supposed to be excellent with regards to loss in the power train.
Anyway, you learn something new every day and that was mine. Cheers
Anyway, you learn something new every day and that was mine. Cheers
Yeh, they do lose a hell of a lot. The diffs are better but obviously the more pipes, rods and other bits there are to transfer the power the more of that will be lost through heat and sound so they will lose upwards of 25% through the drive-train whereas we lose closer to 18% or less.
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