Are Astons really that ‘British’?
Discussion
Since joining, I’ve had the pleasure of following some interesting threads built by the Aston Martin owners and enthusiasts on pistonheads. I only started nosing around in here originally to try to find out the history of my own Vantage, which I was happily able to do.
One recurring theme of interest to many appears to be on the Britishness or Englishness of the cars, with this often being just as important to the non UK owners as it is to the inhabitants of the sceptered isle. There’s endless debates on the Origins of the VH n/a engines, and some strong views on the use of AMG engines in the newer cars.
While we know that such things matter not a jot to many, especially younger and non-motoring enthusiast people increasingly tending to see a car more as an ‘appliance’ or as a piece of tech such as a mobile phone, it does matter to many others, and perhaps to the majority of the enthusiast prospective buyers of the more exotic cars.
While such sentiment is inevitably in decline, it has always mattered. Evidence the giant corporate entities owning multiple marques who continue, as they always have, to use the old badges in the countries they originated in. Not too many cars are badged ‘VAG’ or ‘Stellantis’.
it made me wonder about what it actually is that defines a given marques origins and indeed public perception, and how much it actually matters. Take (for example..), AML.
Of all those interested in such things, what does the global general public think of as the quintessential Aston Martin? - and by extension, possibly the quintessential British car?
Has to be Bonds DB5, right? Or for quite a few, especially Brits, maybe the DB4 as used by Caine in the Italian job?
But back then, things were perhaps a reverse of what they are now, with AM focussed on the engineering - building engines & rolling chassis, and fabricating (not designing) the bodywork and assembly of what we’re truly hand build cars, and hand built engines that were truly deserving of the builders badge under the bonnet. The styling was done by Touring, an Italian design house.
However, if those early 60s cars were ‘designed’ (in the modern, body style sense, as the DB9 was ‘designed’ by Ian Callum and the McLaren F1 was of course ‘designed’ not by Gordon Murray but Peter Stevens) by Italians, does not that make them, whisper it, at least partly, Italian cars??
Perhaps other than the E-type, the Brits, we may remember, never used to be particularly great with car design. It was wise of AM to outsource those glorious 60s designs to those masters of the beautiful, the Italians.
Is it so bad these days that the engines are outsourced to those masters of Engineering, the Germans? After all, even back in the 60’s that other major mechanical component, the transmission, was outsourced to the Germans if manual (ZF) and the Americans if auto, and David Brown was a gear maker!
At least the Brits have learned to do ‘design’ with Callum/Fiskers efforts among the very best ever and even some of Reichmans/Nurnburglers recent mis-steps not being that bad (while some remain on the fence with the DB11, the DBS is certainly a beauty). Just a shame about the mashed up interiors, though it appears that Stroll will sort that out.
AML had a good go at doing their own styling, from the late 60s using the pencil and famously straight ruler of one William Towns. It resulted is some quite unusual and not particularly successful stuff, yet AML still somehow survived until Walter Hayes and Ford took over and Callum got involved. Side note - Prior to Ford at the end of the 80s, another American was instrumental in saving Aston Martin in the 70s, Peter Sprague, he is still alive and in business today. His story of how he got involved as a young and idealistic man, and long term DB4 owner is fascinating - it makes you realise just how lucky Aston Martin have continuously been to continue to exist at all.
Other Towns designs….
Still, Bill did get one thing right, by aping the Camaro design of the 60’s
He updated with a sprinkle of Mustang, and it slowly evolved to become this
Bill Towns - R.I.P.
So if the late fifties to the late sixties belong to the Italians, while the pencil (and ruler!) may have belonged to an eccentric Englishman, that original late 60s DBS, the early 70s AMV8 front end update and essentially the same product until the late 80s were unashamedly American.
When the long periods of Italian (pre DB), North American (70’s, 90s, noughties, now) and even middle eastern ownership is factored in, the facts support an argument that Aston Martin is about as ‘British’ as the Mona Lisa or moms apple pie
One recurring theme of interest to many appears to be on the Britishness or Englishness of the cars, with this often being just as important to the non UK owners as it is to the inhabitants of the sceptered isle. There’s endless debates on the Origins of the VH n/a engines, and some strong views on the use of AMG engines in the newer cars.
While we know that such things matter not a jot to many, especially younger and non-motoring enthusiast people increasingly tending to see a car more as an ‘appliance’ or as a piece of tech such as a mobile phone, it does matter to many others, and perhaps to the majority of the enthusiast prospective buyers of the more exotic cars.
While such sentiment is inevitably in decline, it has always mattered. Evidence the giant corporate entities owning multiple marques who continue, as they always have, to use the old badges in the countries they originated in. Not too many cars are badged ‘VAG’ or ‘Stellantis’.
it made me wonder about what it actually is that defines a given marques origins and indeed public perception, and how much it actually matters. Take (for example..), AML.
Of all those interested in such things, what does the global general public think of as the quintessential Aston Martin? - and by extension, possibly the quintessential British car?
Has to be Bonds DB5, right? Or for quite a few, especially Brits, maybe the DB4 as used by Caine in the Italian job?
But back then, things were perhaps a reverse of what they are now, with AM focussed on the engineering - building engines & rolling chassis, and fabricating (not designing) the bodywork and assembly of what we’re truly hand build cars, and hand built engines that were truly deserving of the builders badge under the bonnet. The styling was done by Touring, an Italian design house.
However, if those early 60s cars were ‘designed’ (in the modern, body style sense, as the DB9 was ‘designed’ by Ian Callum and the McLaren F1 was of course ‘designed’ not by Gordon Murray but Peter Stevens) by Italians, does not that make them, whisper it, at least partly, Italian cars??
Perhaps other than the E-type, the Brits, we may remember, never used to be particularly great with car design. It was wise of AM to outsource those glorious 60s designs to those masters of the beautiful, the Italians.
Is it so bad these days that the engines are outsourced to those masters of Engineering, the Germans? After all, even back in the 60’s that other major mechanical component, the transmission, was outsourced to the Germans if manual (ZF) and the Americans if auto, and David Brown was a gear maker!
At least the Brits have learned to do ‘design’ with Callum/Fiskers efforts among the very best ever and even some of Reichmans/Nurnburglers recent mis-steps not being that bad (while some remain on the fence with the DB11, the DBS is certainly a beauty). Just a shame about the mashed up interiors, though it appears that Stroll will sort that out.
AML had a good go at doing their own styling, from the late 60s using the pencil and famously straight ruler of one William Towns. It resulted is some quite unusual and not particularly successful stuff, yet AML still somehow survived until Walter Hayes and Ford took over and Callum got involved. Side note - Prior to Ford at the end of the 80s, another American was instrumental in saving Aston Martin in the 70s, Peter Sprague, he is still alive and in business today. His story of how he got involved as a young and idealistic man, and long term DB4 owner is fascinating - it makes you realise just how lucky Aston Martin have continuously been to continue to exist at all.
Other Towns designs….
Still, Bill did get one thing right, by aping the Camaro design of the 60’s
He updated with a sprinkle of Mustang, and it slowly evolved to become this
Bill Towns - R.I.P.
So if the late fifties to the late sixties belong to the Italians, while the pencil (and ruler!) may have belonged to an eccentric Englishman, that original late 60s DBS, the early 70s AMV8 front end update and essentially the same product until the late 80s were unashamedly American.
When the long periods of Italian (pre DB), North American (70’s, 90s, noughties, now) and even middle eastern ownership is factored in, the facts support an argument that Aston Martin is about as ‘British’ as the Mona Lisa or moms apple pie
Edited by Calinours on Sunday 9th April 22:54
DB4DM said:
As far as I'm aware, wire wheels were not an option on the V8s so the left car is a DBS with 6 cylinder engine
Car on the left is a 72 AM Vantage. Six cylinder engine, Weber carbs, (claimed) 325bhp Vantage tune. Basically a late model DBS six with the same twin headlight front end as the soon to be launched V8. One of 70 cars produced, and the last model offered with wire wheels. There are many threads on PH lamenting the use of the AMG engines and the new vantage in particular.
Ultimately the company is British based irrespective of what engine is used.
I’m biased in this situation with a DBX 707 and Vantage F1.
I appreciate the older cars and heritage but the newer generations are what brought me into the brand. I’m 32.
Ultimately the company is British based irrespective of what engine is used.
I’m biased in this situation with a DBX 707 and Vantage F1.
I appreciate the older cars and heritage but the newer generations are what brought me into the brand. I’m 32.
nathwraith1 said:
There are many threads on PH lamenting the use of the AMG engines and the new vantage in particular.
Ultimately the company is British based irrespective of what engine is used.
I’m biased in this situation with a DBX 707 and Vantage F1.
I appreciate the older cars and heritage but the newer generations are what brought me into the brand. I’m 32.
Ultimately the company is British based irrespective of what engine is used.
I’m biased in this situation with a DBX 707 and Vantage F1.
I appreciate the older cars and heritage but the newer generations are what brought me into the brand. I’m 32.
Its odd, them being British n'all.
Bertelli was Welsh of italian decent, I believe
David brown was a Yorkshireman so probably considered everyone else "foreign"
He employed a German to design the chassis, a Pole to design the engine, and when he won le mans the team incluced a frenchman who didnt speak english and a Texan
Then it was run jointly by a Canadian, american and Englishman.
Then it was owned by Ford.
But maybe employ8ng the right people, regardless of their background, is the British way and what makes them "british"
(Now, of course every car company is owned by the shareholders. If I was to buy enough shares in Mercedes, it would become a "british" owned brand)
Bertelli was Welsh of italian decent, I believe
David brown was a Yorkshireman so probably considered everyone else "foreign"
He employed a German to design the chassis, a Pole to design the engine, and when he won le mans the team incluced a frenchman who didnt speak english and a Texan
Then it was run jointly by a Canadian, american and Englishman.
Then it was owned by Ford.
But maybe employ8ng the right people, regardless of their background, is the British way and what makes them "british"
(Now, of course every car company is owned by the shareholders. If I was to buy enough shares in Mercedes, it would become a "british" owned brand)
williamp said:
Its odd, them being British n'all.
Bertelli was Welsh of italian decent, I believe
David brown was a Yorkshireman so probably considered everyone else "foreign"
He employed a German to design the chassis, a Pole to design the engine, and when he won le mans the team incluced a frenchman who didnt speak english and a Texan
Then it was run jointly by a Canadian, american and Englishman.
Then it was owned by Ford.
But maybe employ8ng the right people, regardless of their background, is the British way and what makes them "british"
(Now, of course every car company is owned by the shareholders. If I was to buy enough shares in Mercedes, it would become a "british" owned brand)
And now the major shareholders are Canadian, Saudi, German and Chinese, with an Italian CEO.Bertelli was Welsh of italian decent, I believe
David brown was a Yorkshireman so probably considered everyone else "foreign"
He employed a German to design the chassis, a Pole to design the engine, and when he won le mans the team incluced a frenchman who didnt speak english and a Texan
Then it was run jointly by a Canadian, american and Englishman.
Then it was owned by Ford.
But maybe employ8ng the right people, regardless of their background, is the British way and what makes them "british"
(Now, of course every car company is owned by the shareholders. If I was to buy enough shares in Mercedes, it would become a "british" owned brand)
Yes. 'Twas always thus, as Im trying to say.
Have they used a British gearbox since 1963???
If you really want a can of worms, argue that the V12 isnt/is British. Its a very convoluted story. Ford? Cosworth?
But yes, somehow they were, are, and always have been a "british" car company. Its an image I agree with and I support. But damned if I know why!!!
Have they used a British gearbox since 1963???
If you really want a can of worms, argue that the V12 isnt/is British. Its a very convoluted story. Ford? Cosworth?
But yes, somehow they were, are, and always have been a "british" car company. Its an image I agree with and I support. But damned if I know why!!!
Came across this new video from Tyrell about the DBS V8 yesterday. Lots of info pertinent to this thread. Also. What a sound! Definitely worth a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw9dOcgeuqY
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
02:08 - The origin of the DBS V8 engine
03:37 - Quirky history of the DBS
04:43 - How to make the fastest 4-seater in the world
08:47 - Does it still deliver on-the-road thrills? Let's find out
13:58 - Finding a gearbox to cope with the torque
15:30 - Outro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw9dOcgeuqY
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
02:08 - The origin of the DBS V8 engine
03:37 - Quirky history of the DBS
04:43 - How to make the fastest 4-seater in the world
08:47 - Does it still deliver on-the-road thrills? Let's find out
13:58 - Finding a gearbox to cope with the torque
15:30 - Outro
Let’s break it down into the same parts that dvla use to determine whether a car is original or a rebuild (just for the sake of argument/bit of fun and use the same points system where you have to have 8 points to not get a ‘Q’ plate)
Chassis/body she’ll 5 points (Uk afaik) = 5 points
Transmission 2 points (Zf so not Uk?) = 0 points
Axles 2 points (uk afaik) = 2 points
Suspension - 2 points (uk afaik) = 2 points
Engine 1 point (German) =0 points
Steering assembly 2 points (assume MB) = 0 points
Thus under this basis the db11 would get 9 points (you need 8 or more to NOT be out in a Q plate)
For me, the big value things for being British or not are chassis, body, transmission and motor (I am talking cars here btw lol)
Chassis/body she’ll 5 points (Uk afaik) = 5 points
Transmission 2 points (Zf so not Uk?) = 0 points
Axles 2 points (uk afaik) = 2 points
Suspension - 2 points (uk afaik) = 2 points
Engine 1 point (German) =0 points
Steering assembly 2 points (assume MB) = 0 points
Thus under this basis the db11 would get 9 points (you need 8 or more to NOT be out in a Q plate)
For me, the big value things for being British or not are chassis, body, transmission and motor (I am talking cars here btw lol)
Edited by oilit on Tuesday 11th April 08:18
Edited by oilit on Tuesday 11th April 08:18
On my father's side his grandfather harmed from the emerald Isle and his mum was Sicilian, and we believe theres Dutch and possibly french on my mother's side, so they're as British as I am!
I get you on the engine but in a world where Lamborghini is a VW mom-wagon trim level and Merc themselves use french oil burners what's left?! Is the SM not the epitome of frenchyness?
I get you on the engine but in a world where Lamborghini is a VW mom-wagon trim level and Merc themselves use french oil burners what's left?! Is the SM not the epitome of frenchyness?
The sad fact is that we are heading at warp speed into a brave new world of electric ‘appliance’ personal transport.
Very shortly after the EV has taken over, AI will replace the driver. There will then be no need for ownership, just hail one of the self driving uber ‘pods’ and you will be whisked to wherever you want to be. Drone and battery tech will enable autonomous personal transport to quickly work in 3D space. All is already well underway and in developed countries at least, may well complete within many of our lifetimes.
We old dinosaurs who liked to actually once have control will be left just able to look at our fossil-powered (with maybe only one or two notable early electric powered examples) relics in museums, pondering their 20th century origins while we fill our adult nappies.
Happy days
Very shortly after the EV has taken over, AI will replace the driver. There will then be no need for ownership, just hail one of the self driving uber ‘pods’ and you will be whisked to wherever you want to be. Drone and battery tech will enable autonomous personal transport to quickly work in 3D space. All is already well underway and in developed countries at least, may well complete within many of our lifetimes.
We old dinosaurs who liked to actually once have control will be left just able to look at our fossil-powered (with maybe only one or two notable early electric powered examples) relics in museums, pondering their 20th century origins while we fill our adult nappies.
Happy days
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