Aston Martin Lagonda - An eye for detail is important.
Discussion
'We have an unstoppable quest for profound gratification. A desire to capture the pure human motion of the driving experience and a laser like attention to minute detail. ASTON MARTIN'
'Aug 14, 2023, 13:00 PM
Introducing DB12 Volante: The ultimate open-top Super Tourer.'
Around 98% of the clocks in Britain were set to Greenwich mean time by 1855, a single time zone setting the baseline for the rest of the world.
In 1876 the engineer and inventor Sandford Fleming, called for a global 24-hour clock.
In 2023 Aston Martin time was introduced. No longer will 13:00 PM, be confused with 13:00 AM. -
............................................................
Have you spotted anything else, that we could help the AML Marketing Department with ?
angusfaldo said:
Unfortunately I still need to work to pay my bills, limiting the amount of time for some of life's pleasures. So I'm going to spend what I have admiring the new DB12 Volante, rather than scouring AM copy for errors.
That DB12 is lovely!
That DB12 is lovely!
Thank you Angus.
I have already complimented the DB12.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
It certainly is lovely. A beautiful design.
I am sure that it will appeal both to buyers who might place some importance on AM tradition and also to new buyers.
When the DB11 was launched it was at a major show to the world, old style. There were cut down cars to see the new architecture, the new chassis design, the new turbocharged engine, even the new doors. That’s because the DB11, like the DB9 before it, was, actually, pretty much an all new design. Some may not have really warmed to the new cars, but fact is the DB11 and ‘new’ Vantage were actually new cars, launched by a company led by engineers. The marketing and advertising bull**** was far more reigned in.
Here was have today a company led by a master of product marketing. The difference is astounding. The new ‘products’ are just facelifts with a new dash. It’s why there’s the product launches are hyped to the max, shrouded in false mystery, the marketing drivel is amped to the max, but there are no cut outs to show chassis, doors etc, because…. it’s the same car as before.
The most curious thing is just how much of the media, and I do mean real media not the idiotic you tube ‘influencer’ crowd are happy to unquestioningly parrot the official line of “80% new” and the “500% improvement in this or that”.
What I see is a facelifted DB11 V8 with bigger turbos on the AMG lump so the wick can be turned up to the max and yes an all new but completely unproven dash and centre console and what is starting to look like some seriously unfinished interface software development. The rest of the car contains the usual model year updates that all manufacturers including AML do during a cars model run to keep it relevant and fresh. Underneath all the verbal diarrhoea, the new volante, like the coupe, is a revised DB11 V8. A DB11.2. Even it’s internal model designation is still DB11, and the only ‘journalists’ that were honest enough to say so with the coupe were the USA based guys. The only real changes are the revised front end and an all new dashboard which might feel new and cutting edge today, but in 10-15 years that interior will look and feel every bit as dated as the DB11 dash does today. Assuming that they do get the new interface working reliably, I idly wonder if it might be the case that the DB11’s old but fully proven and robust Merc interface would at least still be working.
It was getting on for 50years ago, but Aston Martin have form for trying an al new, go it alone state of the art dash/electronics as desired by enthusiastic new north American owners. They learned the hard way about just how much development and testing is required with such systems….
Here was have today a company led by a master of product marketing. The difference is astounding. The new ‘products’ are just facelifts with a new dash. It’s why there’s the product launches are hyped to the max, shrouded in false mystery, the marketing drivel is amped to the max, but there are no cut outs to show chassis, doors etc, because…. it’s the same car as before.
The most curious thing is just how much of the media, and I do mean real media not the idiotic you tube ‘influencer’ crowd are happy to unquestioningly parrot the official line of “80% new” and the “500% improvement in this or that”.
What I see is a facelifted DB11 V8 with bigger turbos on the AMG lump so the wick can be turned up to the max and yes an all new but completely unproven dash and centre console and what is starting to look like some seriously unfinished interface software development. The rest of the car contains the usual model year updates that all manufacturers including AML do during a cars model run to keep it relevant and fresh. Underneath all the verbal diarrhoea, the new volante, like the coupe, is a revised DB11 V8. A DB11.2. Even it’s internal model designation is still DB11, and the only ‘journalists’ that were honest enough to say so with the coupe were the USA based guys. The only real changes are the revised front end and an all new dashboard which might feel new and cutting edge today, but in 10-15 years that interior will look and feel every bit as dated as the DB11 dash does today. Assuming that they do get the new interface working reliably, I idly wonder if it might be the case that the DB11’s old but fully proven and robust Merc interface would at least still be working.
It was getting on for 50years ago, but Aston Martin have form for trying an al new, go it alone state of the art dash/electronics as desired by enthusiastic new north American owners. They learned the hard way about just how much development and testing is required with such systems….
angusfaldo said:
Unfortunately I still need to work to pay my bills, limiting the amount of time for some of life's pleasures. So I'm going to spend what I have admiring the new DB12 Volante, rather than scouring AM copy for errors.
The problem is that when you have a certain eye, the errors don't need to be scoured for, they leap off the page shouting 'Arooyah!'You would think they'd employ somebody who'd had an education, or that at least somebody above the culprit would have had one such that they could put it right before release. But it's not just AM; I had an e-mail from a Mercedes dealer recently where the salesman, eager to know a convenient time to call me, spelled his name completely in lower case. I pointed out his mistake and never heard from him again.
Calinours said:
When the DB11 was launched it was at the major shows to the world, old style. There were cut down cars to see the new architecture, the new chassis design, the new turbocharged engine, even the new doors. That’s because the DB11, like the DB9 before it, was, actually, pretty much an all new design. Some may not have really warmed to the new cars, but fact is the DB11 and ‘new’ Vantage were actually new cars, launched by a company led by engineers. The marketing and advertising bull**** was far more reigned in.
Now we have a very different company. We have today a company led by a master of product marketing. The difference is astounding. Facelifts with a new dash are cynically launched and marketed as all new products. Product launches are absurdly hyped, shrouded in false mystery, marketing drivel is amped to the max, but notice there are no cut outs to show chassis, doors etc, because…. it’s the same car as before.
The most curious thing is just how much of the media, and I do mean real media not the idiotic you tube ‘influencer’ crowd are happy to unquestioningly parrot the official line of “80% new” and the “500% improvement in this or that”.
What I see is a facelifted DB11 V8 with bigger turbos on the AMG lump so the wick can be turned up to the max and yes an all new but completely unproven dash and centre console and what is starting to look like some seriously unfinished interface software development. The rest of the car contains the usual model year updates that all manufacturers including AML do during a cars model run to keep it relevant and fresh. Underneath all the verbal diarrhoea, the new volante, like the coupe, is a revised DB11 V8. A DB11.2. Even it’s internal model designation is still DB11, and the only ‘journalists’ that were honest enough to say so with the coupe were the USA based guys. The only real changes are the revised front end and an all new dashboard which might feel new and cutting edge today, but in 10-15 years that interior will look and feel every bit as dated as the DB11 dash does today. Assuming that they do get the new interface working reliably, I idly wonder if it might be the case that the DB11’s old but fully proven and robust Merc interface would at least still be working.
It was getting on for 50years ago, but Aston Martin have form for trying an al new, go it alone state of the art dash/electronics as desired by enthusiastic new north American owners. They learned the hard way about just how much development and testing is required with such systems….
If based on previous discussions with some people are I know, there was still ongoing issues with the infotainment and reliability. I could say more on the infotainment and the journo drives in Monaco, but probably best left there! Now we have a very different company. We have today a company led by a master of product marketing. The difference is astounding. Facelifts with a new dash are cynically launched and marketed as all new products. Product launches are absurdly hyped, shrouded in false mystery, marketing drivel is amped to the max, but notice there are no cut outs to show chassis, doors etc, because…. it’s the same car as before.
The most curious thing is just how much of the media, and I do mean real media not the idiotic you tube ‘influencer’ crowd are happy to unquestioningly parrot the official line of “80% new” and the “500% improvement in this or that”.
What I see is a facelifted DB11 V8 with bigger turbos on the AMG lump so the wick can be turned up to the max and yes an all new but completely unproven dash and centre console and what is starting to look like some seriously unfinished interface software development. The rest of the car contains the usual model year updates that all manufacturers including AML do during a cars model run to keep it relevant and fresh. Underneath all the verbal diarrhoea, the new volante, like the coupe, is a revised DB11 V8. A DB11.2. Even it’s internal model designation is still DB11, and the only ‘journalists’ that were honest enough to say so with the coupe were the USA based guys. The only real changes are the revised front end and an all new dashboard which might feel new and cutting edge today, but in 10-15 years that interior will look and feel every bit as dated as the DB11 dash does today. Assuming that they do get the new interface working reliably, I idly wonder if it might be the case that the DB11’s old but fully proven and robust Merc interface would at least still be working.
It was getting on for 50years ago, but Aston Martin have form for trying an al new, go it alone state of the art dash/electronics as desired by enthusiastic new north American owners. They learned the hard way about just how much development and testing is required with such systems….
Edited by Calinours on Friday 18th August 09:51
Edited by Calinours on Friday 18th August 09:54
The DB12 was not finished at all when the journos drove and it was far from just the infotainment.
Technically on the facelifted DB11 and internal mode code the AM configurator always gives it away: https://configurator.astonmartin.com/GB/model-sele...AM5/AM572
The section in bold is effectively the parent internal model code or the end child part of the link gives away the entire internal model codes of all models.
AM5 - DB11
AM6 - Vantage
AM7 - DBSS/DBS
AM8 - DBX
etc.
Calinours said:
What I see is a facelifted DB11 V8 with bigger turbos on the AMG lump so the wick can be turned up to the max and yes an all new but completely unproven dash and centre console and what is starting to look like some seriously unfinished interface software development. The rest of the car contains the usual model year updates that all manufacturers including AML do during a cars model run to keep it relevant and fresh. Underneath all the verbal diarrhoea, the new volante, like the coupe, is a revised DB11 V8. A DB11.2. Even it’s internal model designation is still DB11, ….
You are of course quite correct.
It was anticipated on here a while ago (when LS spoke about an "All new car"), that a mid-term refresh would be most likely, simply because there are not funds available to produce three completely new models. Huge engineering and regulatory spending required.
However, I think we must compliment AML for the DB12, because they have addressed the two aspects that some PHers have moaned about since the 21st November 2017.
The true Aston Martin beauty is back and hopefully the Coupe and Volante will sell well.
I don't know anything about the interface software, but did spot an earlier mention about some technical difficulties.
Does anyone know what the problems are ?
Perhaps brave to employ temporary IT contractors, to design a bespoke system from scratch. The government have experience of that.
The latest development of the Mercedes-Benz operating system (new E class) seems to be praised by reviewers, for its intuitive simplicity and speed of operation. No need now to even say, "Hey Mercedes" to wake up the voice commands.
I am sure that M-B would have been unlikely to let AML use their latest system and don't think a full screen dashboard would look right in an Aston Martin anyway.
The DB12 photos alone, reveal a very good overall job done.
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 18th August 11:07
Jon39 said:
You are of course quite correct.
It was anticipated on here a while ago (when LS spoke about an "All new car"), that a mid-term refresh would be most likely, simply because there are not funds available to produce three completely new models. Huge engineering and regulatory spending required.
However, I think we must compliment AML for the DB12, because they have addressed the two aspects that some PHers have moaned about since the 21st November 2017.
The true Aston Martin beauty is back and hopefully the Coupe and Volante will sell well.
I don't know anything about the interface software, but did spot an earlier mention about some technical difficulties.
Does anyone know what the problems are ?
Perhaps brave to employ temporary IT contractors, to design a bespoke system from scratch. The government have experience of that.
The latest development of the Mercedes-Benz operating system (new E class) seems to be praised by reviewers, for its intuitive simplicity and speed of operation. No need now to even say, "Hey Mercedes" to wake up the voice commands.
I am sure that M-B would have been unlikely to let AML use their latest system and don't think a full screen dashboard would look right in an Aston Martin anyway.
The DB12 photos alone, reveal a very good overall job done.
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 18th August 11:07
1) Traction control/stability control issues with the updated Bosch HW/SW and it reacting late - now resolved, but journo cars were running modified DB11 SW.
2) Infotainment - from what I have been told it sounds like it is still unstable in someway, cars that were on the press runs were having the infotainment out after every day to be reflashed to be usable.
3) Cars destined for the US breaking down on test routes.
4) AM have employed around 30 or so people on that project, from what my contact describes a lot of recent hires are not contract hires. Additionally, and did raise an eyebrow or two AM blamed the UK market for lack of qualified graduates to help with SW development...
amongst the other issues regarding the V12 Vantage and DBS 770.
Simpo Two said:
The problem is that when you have a certain eye, the errors don't need to be scoured for, they leap off the page shouting 'Arooyah!'
You would think they'd employ somebody who'd had an education, or that at least somebody above the culprit would have had one such that they could put it right before release. But it's not just AM; I had an e-mail from a Mercedes dealer recently where the salesman, eager to know a convenient time to call me, spelled his name completely in lower case. I pointed out his mistake and never heard from him again.
I bet you read, re-read and read again what you typed before posting.....just in case You would think they'd employ somebody who'd had an education, or that at least somebody above the culprit would have had one such that they could put it right before release. But it's not just AM; I had an e-mail from a Mercedes dealer recently where the salesman, eager to know a convenient time to call me, spelled his name completely in lower case. I pointed out his mistake and never heard from him again.
angusfaldo said:
I bet you read, re-read and read again what you typed before posting.....just in case
Quite possible, but there was a recent hirarious exception.
A polite warning about leaving a newly purchased Aston Martin, in a Liverpool public car park, whilst going on a cruise.
An easy mistake to make. The car ferry is small, but the cruise ship is far away. [with acknowledgement to Father Ted.]
Calinours said:
and yes an all new but completely unproven dash and centre console and what is starting to look like some seriously unfinished interface software development.
Couldn´t agree more. Even large car manufacturers are having a hard time to keep their infotainment/navigation systems up to speed - why should a system built from scratch by new hires be even close to an acceptable standard? I really hope that they are using a proven system from Merc in the background and just redesigned the frontend.angusfaldo said:
I bet you read, re-read and read again what you typed before posting.....just in case
Even more than usual! BTW the Irish gentleman booked the wrong ship and Jon39 paid him to pretend he'd meant to do it...Jon39 said:
Quite possible, but there was a recent hirarious exception.
Was he Chinese?Jon39 said:
You are of course quite correct.
It was anticipated on here a while ago (when LS spoke about an "All new car"), that a mid-term refresh would be most likely, simply because there are not funds available to produce three completely new models. Huge engineering and regulatory spending required.
However, I think we must compliment AML for the DB12, because they have addressed the two aspects that some PHers have moaned about since the 21st November 2017.
The true Aston Martin beauty is back and hopefully the Coupe and Volante will sell well.
I don't know anything about the interface software, but did spot an earlier mention about some technical difficulties.
Does anyone know what the problems are ?
Perhaps brave to employ temporary IT contractors, to design a bespoke system from scratch. The government have experience of that.
The latest development of the Mercedes-Benz operating system (new E class) seems to be praised by reviewers, for its intuitive simplicity and speed of operation. No need now to even say, "Hey Mercedes" to wake up the voice commands.
I am sure that M-B would have been unlikely to let AML use their latest system and don't think a full screen dashboard would look right in an Aston Martin anyway.
The DB12 photos alone, reveal a very good overall job done.
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 18th August 11:07
Wouldn't it be nice if Aston Martin resisted the marketing bulls
t and hyperbole that have become the norm? Alas, I think that is a big ask, and perhaps unfair to a company that desperately needs to sell some cars. It's an interesting dilemma: would a more 'conservative' strategy actually increase sales, or rather might it even hurt them? Perhaps it would make no difference, as no one is paying attention except the Aston die-hards, who aren't influenced by the marketing anyway?
quench said:
Jon39 said:
You are of course quite correct.
It was anticipated on here a while ago (when LS spoke about an "All new car"), that a mid-term refresh would be most likely, simply because there are not funds available to produce three completely new models. Huge engineering and regulatory spending required.
However, I think we must compliment AML for the DB12, because they have addressed the two aspects that some PHers have moaned about since the 21st November 2017.
The true Aston Martin beauty is back and hopefully the Coupe and Volante will sell well.
I don't know anything about the interface software, but did spot an earlier mention about some technical difficulties.
Does anyone know what the problems are ?
Perhaps brave to employ temporary IT contractors, to design a bespoke system from scratch. The government have experience of that.
The latest development of the Mercedes-Benz operating system (new E class) seems to be praised by reviewers, for its intuitive simplicity and speed of operation. No need now to even say, "Hey Mercedes" to wake up the voice commands.
I am sure that M-B would have been unlikely to let AML use their latest system and don't think a full screen dashboard would look right in an Aston Martin anyway.
The DB12 photos alone, reveal a very good overall job done.
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 18th August 11:07
Wouldn't it be nice if Aston Martin resisted the marketing bulls
t and hyperbole that have become the norm? Alas, I think that is a big ask, and perhaps unfair to a company that desperately needs to sell some cars. It's an interesting dilemma: would a more 'conservative' strategy actually increase sales, or rather might it even hurt them? Perhaps it would make no difference, as no one is paying attention except the Aston die-hards, who aren't influenced by the marketing anyway?It seems that the DB12 is fitted with an improved version of the active coilover systems seen in the DB11 and Vanquish, as you might expect it to be, being later. From what I’ve seen, there may be additional yaw/heave/pitch/engine (etc) inputs and improved control, reaction and dynamism in the adaptive damping characteristics as a result. (sorry, meant to say there is a 500% improvement in ‘bandwidth’…).
I don’t want to deride the facelifted cars. I hope they sell. I am just acutely sick of this handbag seller bulls
t. Calinours said:
Sorry to say but the DB12’s suspension design is exactly the same as the DB11’s. Wishbone front, multi link rear. That’s because it’s the same car. Using different springs, dampers and maybe bushes to tune driving characteristics is actually a very minor thing. Specialists are there to do it for owners. Many owners of the n/a Gaydon cars did it with some frequency...
I don’t want to deride the facelifted cars. I hope they sell. I am just acutely sick of this handbag seller bullst.
While I share your distaste for marketing BS, I think you are selling short the potential effects of incremental modifications on an existing, sound platform.I don’t want to deride the facelifted cars. I hope they sell. I am just acutely sick of this handbag seller bulls
t. I disagree that suspension tuning is a "very minor thing". It can have a profound effect on how the car drives, which I think is the point some reviewers tried to make about the DB12. If it were a "very minor thing", I would expect OEM developers/engineers to get it right more frequently, but that doesn't seem to be the case, not just at Aston but across many marques. As for "specialists" there is no doubt that some can improve on OEM, but in my experience they are vastly in the minority, and most aftermarket modifications are a compromise, or worse a downgrade from OEM.
Manufacturer development of existing models has always been a reason to purchase a model towards the end of its life cycle, as long as you don't have an overwhelming desire for the newest thing. I think this maxim has been particularly important for buying cars from a small company with limited resources like Aston Martin. Having owned several first gen Gaydon cars from relatively early to relatively late in their life cycles, I can say that incremental modifications made the latest vehicle substantially improved over the earliest.
quench said:
Calinours said:
Sorry to say but the DB12’s suspension design is exactly the same as the DB11’s. Wishbone front, multi link rear. That’s because it’s the same car. Using different springs, dampers and maybe bushes to tune driving characteristics is actually a very minor thing. Specialists are there to do it for owners. Many owners of the n/a Gaydon cars did it with some frequency...
I don’t want to deride the facelifted cars. I hope they sell. I am just acutely sick of this handbag seller bullst.
While I share your distaste for marketing BS, I think you are selling short the potential effects of incremental modifications on an existing, sound platform.I don’t want to deride the facelifted cars. I hope they sell. I am just acutely sick of this handbag seller bulls
t. I disagree that suspension tuning is a "very minor thing". It can have a profound effect on how the car drives, which I think is the point some reviewers tried to make about the DB12. If it were a "very minor thing", I would expect OEM developers/engineers to get it right more frequently, but that doesn't seem to be the case, not just at Aston but across many marques. As for "specialists" there is no doubt that some can improve on OEM, but in my experience they are vastly in the minority, and most aftermarket modifications are a compromise, or worse a downgrade from OEM.
Manufacturer development of existing models has always been a reason to purchase a model towards the end of its life cycle, as long as you don't have an overwhelming desire for the newest thing. I think this maxim has been particularly important for buying cars from a small company with limited resources like Aston Martin. Having owned several first gen Gaydon cars from relatively early to relatively late in their life cycles, I can say that incremental modifications made the latest vehicle substantially improved over the earliest.
Only time will tell if customers who rejected what were all new (and much better) cars that were reasonably priced will be happy to pay a 25-35% ‘ultra luxury’ Stroll premium for effectively the exact same car with an uglier/more stylish (delete as applicable) front end and a more modern, non old merc, but likely very problematic but all new Aston Martin reskin/new user interface (to, of course, a slightly later Mercedes architecture, procured and secured, guess what, under the exact same contract brokered by AP). Wake up to reality FFS.
I hope the rich folk of the world (who of course, Stroll knows a thing or two about, having sold them faux luxury garbage for decades) buy the updated DB11 V8 in droves, and happily forget it was launched just 5 yrs ago as the ‘poverty spec bought in Merc V8’ alternative engined £140k version of the original DB11, the one with the magnificent and superbly re-engineered turbocharged Aston Martin V12. I hope they flock to buy it in absolute droves at the new properly optioned £230k price. If it happens, it will confirm much about the direction that this world is heading.
Mostly, it will confirm that for sure the silver haired BS merchant is an absolute master of it, fully graduated in the art of nonsense, of empty and mindless waffle, of vacuous statements and slogans. ie he is absolutely and completely on top of his marketing game.
Sadly it isn’t a game of thrones, it’s just a game of marketing, of advertising, of smoke and mirrors, of nonsense. A/the game of, at best, exaggeration merchants, at worst conmen. It’s really just a game of BS, and for that game, I sincerely hope that ‘Winter is coming’.
Edited by Calinours on Friday 18th August 21:20
Forums | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff