Clean Classic - crate engine or electric conversion?
Discussion
As suggested by Mabbott, a thread to discuss, and maybe find anyone who has already done it, or is actively considering, or in process of conversion.
We know there are a few companies out there who are offering electric conversions for classics, which for the purposes of this thread in the AM corner of PH I consider as a pre-1990 Aston, anything with the old uncatalysed 2 valve original Marek V8 or the earlier Bentley/Marek inline sixes going back to the early post WW2 David Brown era.
With societies attitudes toward ICE changing rapidly, running a classic on the road is likely to present increasing challenge in the future, from legislation driven effects like clean air zones and taxes to the potential for mindless vandalism. Astons have always been high end, big engines and high power whatever era - any old AM engine even in good tune will produce a lot of pollution even when compared to another similar era but small engined classic.
I know I can’t stay in my garage more than a few seconds with my old cars engine running….
So the question is on conversion to be able to keep more of these non fuel injected, non catalysed old beauties on the road and be able to drive into cities (yes historics are exempt for now, I suspect it may change) without punitive charges or eggs thrown. Even fuel will become a problem as ethanol content goes up throughout the extended transition to electric.
Of course the challenge for ICE is universal, it encompasses everything from the likelihood of punitive taxes to fuel availability and ultimately, over time, even finding mechanics with the right skills. Things are heading rapidly in one direction, there’s no turning back.
Of course AM are special, the values of the old stuff testifies to this, as does how many of the tiny amounts that were produced survive. Many have long been effectively just museum pieces, wheeled out on trailers for shows.
How to keep classic stuff on the road in the future? - there are already couple of options, electric conversion or the ‘restomod’ route of a modern emission controlled crate engine and box.
They converters all seem to understand the need to make any changes fully reversible. They are already popular with less exotic classic stuff, can it be an option for at least a small handful of the tiny numbers of classic AM? Do values and rarity and maybe little bit of something else largely prohibit such conversions for classic Astons ?
It is a real treat to see one on the road, as I was near continuously told. It would be great to continue to see them, but it’s going to get harder.
I guess we can understand what the attitude of the AMOC is going to be. What about those among you guys who have been dreaming of acquiring and restoring a classic, maybe even a classic Aston one day ?
I have never really understood electric conversion on a classic car as for me the engine and powertrain is the heart and soul of any car. The first thing enthusiasts do with any classic is to fire it up and lift the bonnet. If heart and soul is removed then what’s left?
Crate conversion. It’s possible to buy American V8s relatively cheaply, I’m sure I6 and other options are available. I still can’t quite see the point though. I’m not sure I would consider replacing a beautiful, historic motor, hand built for the car it went in with some universal mass produced thing. No matter how quick it is, how reliable, how good it sounds or how EU X compliant it could be.
Alternative options ? Well, I understand Vantage Engineering are working on shoehorning a DB9 engine and running gear into a 1970’s V8 body… Should be an amazing restomod but it’s probably not for everyone.
I’d probably go down the route of seeing what can be done to clean up the emissions from the old engine. As long as there isn’t anything legally preventing use on the road, it can be just about not emitting offensive smells and too much pollution as the world becomes used to cleaner air and citizens become more aware of and less tolerant of the ‘smokers and the stinkers’.
Fuel injection is already possible and is offered by the likes of Aston Engineering and RSW for the old stuff. I’m sure catalysts can be added (though I haven’t seen that yet). This should in theory get the old motors to 1990’s standards. Perhaps, as with the crate motors, it’s a stay of execution, lasting, assuming fuel remains available, at best our lifetimes and nothing more. After that I guess it’s going to be electric or the museum.
We know there are a few companies out there who are offering electric conversions for classics, which for the purposes of this thread in the AM corner of PH I consider as a pre-1990 Aston, anything with the old uncatalysed 2 valve original Marek V8 or the earlier Bentley/Marek inline sixes going back to the early post WW2 David Brown era.
With societies attitudes toward ICE changing rapidly, running a classic on the road is likely to present increasing challenge in the future, from legislation driven effects like clean air zones and taxes to the potential for mindless vandalism. Astons have always been high end, big engines and high power whatever era - any old AM engine even in good tune will produce a lot of pollution even when compared to another similar era but small engined classic.
I know I can’t stay in my garage more than a few seconds with my old cars engine running….
So the question is on conversion to be able to keep more of these non fuel injected, non catalysed old beauties on the road and be able to drive into cities (yes historics are exempt for now, I suspect it may change) without punitive charges or eggs thrown. Even fuel will become a problem as ethanol content goes up throughout the extended transition to electric.
Of course the challenge for ICE is universal, it encompasses everything from the likelihood of punitive taxes to fuel availability and ultimately, over time, even finding mechanics with the right skills. Things are heading rapidly in one direction, there’s no turning back.
Of course AM are special, the values of the old stuff testifies to this, as does how many of the tiny amounts that were produced survive. Many have long been effectively just museum pieces, wheeled out on trailers for shows.
How to keep classic stuff on the road in the future? - there are already couple of options, electric conversion or the ‘restomod’ route of a modern emission controlled crate engine and box.
They converters all seem to understand the need to make any changes fully reversible. They are already popular with less exotic classic stuff, can it be an option for at least a small handful of the tiny numbers of classic AM? Do values and rarity and maybe little bit of something else largely prohibit such conversions for classic Astons ?
It is a real treat to see one on the road, as I was near continuously told. It would be great to continue to see them, but it’s going to get harder.
I guess we can understand what the attitude of the AMOC is going to be. What about those among you guys who have been dreaming of acquiring and restoring a classic, maybe even a classic Aston one day ?
I have never really understood electric conversion on a classic car as for me the engine and powertrain is the heart and soul of any car. The first thing enthusiasts do with any classic is to fire it up and lift the bonnet. If heart and soul is removed then what’s left?
Crate conversion. It’s possible to buy American V8s relatively cheaply, I’m sure I6 and other options are available. I still can’t quite see the point though. I’m not sure I would consider replacing a beautiful, historic motor, hand built for the car it went in with some universal mass produced thing. No matter how quick it is, how reliable, how good it sounds or how EU X compliant it could be.
Alternative options ? Well, I understand Vantage Engineering are working on shoehorning a DB9 engine and running gear into a 1970’s V8 body… Should be an amazing restomod but it’s probably not for everyone.
I’d probably go down the route of seeing what can be done to clean up the emissions from the old engine. As long as there isn’t anything legally preventing use on the road, it can be just about not emitting offensive smells and too much pollution as the world becomes used to cleaner air and citizens become more aware of and less tolerant of the ‘smokers and the stinkers’.
Fuel injection is already possible and is offered by the likes of Aston Engineering and RSW for the old stuff. I’m sure catalysts can be added (though I haven’t seen that yet). This should in theory get the old motors to 1990’s standards. Perhaps, as with the crate motors, it’s a stay of execution, lasting, assuming fuel remains available, at best our lifetimes and nothing more. After that I guess it’s going to be electric or the museum.
Edited by Calinours on Monday 28th August 09:35
First they moaned about lead in petrol, so that was got rid of, then they moaned about NOx, so that was got rid of with expensive catalysts, then they moaned about emissions anyway, so they were reduced by clever and expensive engine technology. In short, 'society' can be trained to moan about anything. ICE cars are still portrayed as filthy 'gas-guzzlers' just as in the 1970s.
I do few miles in my Aston, and I pay handsomely for the privilege, so no, I am not going to spend £50K or whatever converting it to battery power to appease 'society'. There is one battery; it has 12 volts, lasts for years and the engine recharges it.
I am quite sure that when everyone has been forced, by money, guilt or otherwise, to scrap their ICE cars and buy EVs - let's not even consider the queues at electricity stations or what they do when the wind isn't blowing - that 'society' will just find something else to whine about. The destruction of the countryside by powerlines, or the slaves or the children digging battery-stuff out of the ground, or the fields piled high with dead batteries stuffed with explosive mixtures of rare earth metals dug from the precious rainforests of Botswana, the last refuge of the rare wokka-wokka bird that David Attenborough made a film about.
You want omelettes; eggs are going to be broken somewhere.
I do few miles in my Aston, and I pay handsomely for the privilege, so no, I am not going to spend £50K or whatever converting it to battery power to appease 'society'. There is one battery; it has 12 volts, lasts for years and the engine recharges it.
I am quite sure that when everyone has been forced, by money, guilt or otherwise, to scrap their ICE cars and buy EVs - let's not even consider the queues at electricity stations or what they do when the wind isn't blowing - that 'society' will just find something else to whine about. The destruction of the countryside by powerlines, or the slaves or the children digging battery-stuff out of the ground, or the fields piled high with dead batteries stuffed with explosive mixtures of rare earth metals dug from the precious rainforests of Botswana, the last refuge of the rare wokka-wokka bird that David Attenborough made a film about.
You want omelettes; eggs are going to be broken somewhere.
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 28th August 19:35
Simpo Two said:
First they moaned about lead in petrol, so that was got rid of, then they moaned about NOx, so that was got rid of with expensive catalysts, then they moaned about emissions anyway, so they were reduced by clever and expensive engine technology. In short, 'society' can be trained to moan about anything. ICE cars are still portrayed as filthy 'gas-guzzlers' just as in the 1970s.
I do few miles in my Aston, and I pay handsomely for the privilege, so no, I am not going to spend £50K or whatever converting it to battery power to appease 'society'. There is one battery; it has 12 volts, lasts for years and the engine recharges it.
I am quite sure that when everyone has been forced, by money, guilt or otherwise, to scrap their ICE cars and buy EVs - let's not even consider the queues at electricity stations or what they do when the wind isn't blowing - that 'society' will just find something else to whine about. The destruction of the countryside by powerlines, or the slaves or the children digging battery-stuff out of the ground, or the fields piled high with dead batteries stuffed with explosive mixtures of rare earth metals dug from the precious rainforests of Botswana, the last refuge of the rare wokka-wokka bird that David Attenborough made a film about.
You want omelettes; eggs are going to be broken somewhere.
This sums it up for me.I do few miles in my Aston, and I pay handsomely for the privilege, so no, I am not going to spend £50K or whatever converting it to battery power to appease 'society'. There is one battery; it has 12 volts, lasts for years and the engine recharges it.
I am quite sure that when everyone has been forced, by money, guilt or otherwise, to scrap their ICE cars and buy EVs - let's not even consider the queues at electricity stations or what they do when the wind isn't blowing - that 'society' will just find something else to whine about. The destruction of the countryside by powerlines, or the slaves or the children digging battery-stuff out of the ground, or the fields piled high with dead batteries stuffed with explosive mixtures of rare earth metals dug from the precious rainforests of Botswana, the last refuge of the rare wokka-wokka bird that David Attenborough made a film about.
You want omelettes; eggs are going to be broken somewhere.
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 28th August 19:35
Funny how I can take my 2009 Vantage into London and not have to pay ULEZ .... But it's all about clean air ... Ahem, tax to fill the hole they have in the pension pot.
BiggaJ said:
Funny how I can take my 2009 Vantage into London and not have to pay ULEZ ...
You are Sadiq Khan AICMFP!Interestingly (because my first attempt to remember the Mayor of London came up with Ravi Shankar so I had to google it) the Lord Mayor is a different person, Nicholas Lyons, who nobody has ever heard of.
It's a non-issue. Enthusiasts still drive Stanley Steamers, Edwardian cars do the London to Brighton and the classic car ownership is still thriving, Silverstone, Goodwood, Beaulieu etc. When everyone is waiting to plug into a charger there'll be less people at the petrol pumps. If younger generations eschew car ownership, great - there'll be more room on the roads for us to enjoy our cars. 
p.s. the Aston Martin engine in Feltham era cars was a Lagonda engine. It was designed by Willie Watson but journalists prefer to say Bentley because the name has more cachet. WO was technical director at Lagonda at the time.
p.s. the Aston Martin engine in Feltham era cars was a Lagonda engine. It was designed by Willie Watson but journalists prefer to say Bentley because the name has more cachet. WO was technical director at Lagonda at the time.
Simpo Two said:
First they moaned about lead in petrol, so that was got rid of, then they moaned about NOx, so that was got rid of with expensive catalysts, then they moaned about emissions anyway, so they were reduced by clever and expensive engine technology. In short, 'society' can be trained to moan about anything. ICE cars are still portrayed as filthy 'gas-guzzlers' just as in the 1970s.
I do few miles in my Aston, and I pay handsomely for the privilege, so no, I am not going to spend £50K or whatever converting it to battery power to appease 'society'. There is one battery; it has 12 volts, lasts for years and the engine recharges it.
I am quite sure that when everyone has been forced, by money, guilt or otherwise, to scrap their ICE cars and buy EVs - let's not even consider the queues at electricity stations or what they do when the wind isn't blowing - that 'society' will just find something else to whine about. The destruction of the countryside by powerlines, or the slaves or the children digging battery-stuff out of the ground, or the fields piled high with dead batteries stuffed with explosive mixtures of rare earth metals dug from the precious rainforests of Botswana, the last refuge of the rare wokka-wokka bird that David Attenborough made a film about.
You want omelettes; eggs are going to be broken somewhere.
Great post. I do few miles in my Aston, and I pay handsomely for the privilege, so no, I am not going to spend £50K or whatever converting it to battery power to appease 'society'. There is one battery; it has 12 volts, lasts for years and the engine recharges it.
I am quite sure that when everyone has been forced, by money, guilt or otherwise, to scrap their ICE cars and buy EVs - let's not even consider the queues at electricity stations or what they do when the wind isn't blowing - that 'society' will just find something else to whine about. The destruction of the countryside by powerlines, or the slaves or the children digging battery-stuff out of the ground, or the fields piled high with dead batteries stuffed with explosive mixtures of rare earth metals dug from the precious rainforests of Botswana, the last refuge of the rare wokka-wokka bird that David Attenborough made a film about.
You want omelettes; eggs are going to be broken somewhere.
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 28th August 19:35
It’s absolute madness to even consider turning an Aston (or any other car of the same ilk for that matter) into a fridge on wheels to appease the sheep who believe whatever current popular opinion is being thrust down their throats at the time.
Simpo Two said:
BiggaJ said:
Funny how I can take my 2009 Vantage into London and not have to pay ULEZ ...
You are Sadiq Khan AICMFP!Interestingly (because my first attempt to remember the Mayor of London came up with Ravi Shankar so I had to google it) the Lord Mayor is a different person, Nicholas Lyons, who nobody has ever heard of.
Calinours said:
As suggested by Mabbott,
Did I? Edited by Calinours on Monday 28th August 09:35
My comments related to IC crate engine conversion for performance, given you mentioned a Vantage conversion (and concerns over emissions). Electric conversion didn’t even enter my head. As above, I think it’s a non-issue for classics right now as lots of real-world things still need to play out; exact legislation, timing, exemptions, corresponding evolution of tech etc, none of which would make me rush to do anything if at all.
BiggaJ said:
Funny how I can take my 2009 Vantage into London and not have to pay ULEZ .... But it's all about clean air ... Ahem, tax to fill the hole they have in the pension pot.
Does seem contradictory, but it was then explained that 'clean air' is only to do with microscopic poisonous particulates floating in the air, not carbon dioxide emissions.
Apparently it is specifically only the particulates from old cars, that keeps killing 4,000 people.
The air borne particulates caused by trains in the London Underground, heavy battery vehicle, brake disc, pad friction and rubber tyres, are harmless.
To drive in this heavily polluted part of London, now costs £12-50 each day.
Wonder if the next general election might become a referendum on motorist freedoms ?
Vehicle owners who believed the Labour government's recommendation about diesel cars, might now be rather confused (annoyed) by the charges now being imposed by a Labour mayor.
Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 29th August 08:38
RichB said:
It's a non-issue. Enthusiasts still drive Stanley Steamers, Edwardian cars do the London to Brighton and the classic car ownership is still thriving, Silverstone, Goodwood, Beaulieu etc. When everyone is waiting to plug into a charger there'll be less people at the petrol pumps. If younger generations eschew car ownership, great - there'll be more room on the roads for us to enjoy our cars.
Yes, these are my thoughts as well. ICE cars are not going to be systematically wiped out in a decade. Horses also used to be the preferred mode of transport, stinking, drawing flies, excrement everywhere, and were phased out by the automobile. People still ride horses, in the same way that people will still be able to enjoy the sound of their V12 in the future. Yes, ultimately maybe they will be limited to how many road miles they can do in a year, maybe the tax will be high, maybe only cars deemed to be "special" enough will be permitted to continue being used. All speculation, and unlikely to be an issue in my lifetime.As for electrifying an Aston, why? I can`t see that gaining much traction (well of course it would probably gain a lot of traction due to the electric torque...) around enthusiasts and people around here. Putting a TT AMG in caused enough disdain.
Apologies Mabbott, yes you mentioned only improving performance and a crate engine powertrain upgrade. I should have made that clear. In my mind I don’t separate that sort of ICE upgrade from electrification for an Aston. I would do neither for the reasons I mentioned.
The sentiment expressed and the confidence that so many have that the hobby won’t be affected is heartening. I do understand and agree on the hypocrisy, studies have shown that the PM issues are as much caused by tyres, brake dust etc. Anyone who researches what comes out of the global shipping fleet will have their minds blown.
I was really after whether anyone on here would consider a crate or electric modification, just to be able to stay on the road whatever happens, without getting into any of the politics of any of it, maybe I should have kept the electric thing out of it or separated.
I mentioned that I’d be happy to go fuel injected and even add some catalysts to my old V8, I don’t think it would change anything of the character of my car and early FIE was even offered in period - at both start and end.
King Charles, himself an environmentalist keeps the crazies or more fundamentalist environmentalists happy with his ‘wine and cheese’ converted DB6, so there are at least options to fend off this type of thing which I don’t understand at all…
https://youtu.be/_GXq5Q_sPsI?si=FLO5ELZMvyQOfxlA
A classic is a classic, mutilate it and it's gone. Maybe such heritage can be retrieved, but only at the further cost of reversing the sacrilege.
CO2 increase is the best thing that can happen to this planet as plants, trees, crops and people all thrive. The very stupid idea that CO2 is some sort of poison is insanity - just try living without for two minutes. Get out there with your Aston, open the taps and feel good about your contribution to the preservation of life.
CO2 increase is the best thing that can happen to this planet as plants, trees, crops and people all thrive. The very stupid idea that CO2 is some sort of poison is insanity - just try living without for two minutes. Get out there with your Aston, open the taps and feel good about your contribution to the preservation of life.
Edited by dokkodo on Tuesday 29th August 10:49
Edited by dokkodo on Tuesday 29th August 10:52
dokkodo said:
A classic is a classic, mutilate it and it's gone. Maybe such heritage can be retrieved, but only at the further cost of reversing the sacrilege.
CO2 increase is the best thing that can happen to this planet as plants, trees, crops and people all thrive. The very stupid idea that CO2 is some sort of poison is insanity - just try living without for two minutes. Get out there with your Aston, open the taps and feel good about your contribution to the preservation of life.
Which makes this head line absolute madness CO2 increase is the best thing that can happen to this planet as plants, trees, crops and people all thrive. The very stupid idea that CO2 is some sort of poison is insanity - just try living without for two minutes. Get out there with your Aston, open the taps and feel good about your contribution to the preservation of life.
Edited by dokkodo on Tuesday 29th August 10:49
Edited by dokkodo on Tuesday 29th August 10:52
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/19/sn...
If you drive along the dock road in Hull, you will see huge numbers of wind turbine blades (Siemens) being readied for shipment to one of the numerous wind farms we have on and off shore. None of them are recyclable to date, all of them go to land fill. It's the same with solar.
If the government were really trying to meet a set of self imposed targets, why have they not mandated all new builds have solar installed, all new warehousing (much of it can be seen along motorways in the UK) should have solar? the amount of free space on their roofs would save a lot of land being taken to build solar farms.
It's all baloney.
Edited by BiggaJ on Tuesday 29th August 11:04
Calinours said:
I was really after whether anyone on here would consider a crate or electric modification, just to be able to stay on the road whatever happens, without getting into any of the politics of any of it, maybe I should have kept the electric thing out of it or separated.
Certainly not.
Anyway the practicalities of the U.K. 2030 ban, mean it cannot happen on time.
My emergency plan is to buy a car trailer. An EV can just about travel 50 miles when towing a heavy loaded trailer.
No point in planning to use a public charger (would by then be queuing for days) so I will then use a Honda generator to put charge into the EV (might require an overnight sleep in the EV, so need to choose a suitable one) and then hopefully be able to travel another 50 miles.
Eventually might arrive at the AMHT annual festival.
.................................................
A classic Mini owner has an electric motor conversion.
For charging, he drilled a hole in the boot lid, concealed behind the standard folding rear number plate.
When describing all the modifications to the DVLA, he encountered an immovable jobsworth.
A hole cut into the chassis of a vehicle counts as a major modification, so a .
Q registration mark will be issued.
A. The hole in the boot lid for the charger cable cannot be seen, because it is hidden by the number plate.
B. The boot lid does not form any part of the monocoque chassis.
"Look you, there is no right of appeal, boyo".
I see this thread isn’t going to work due to the mention of climate/pollution driven legislation and societal change & electrification. I didn’t want to get into any politics, I was just interested if anyone (like Mabbott) would consider a powertrain upgrade on a classic Aston, for any reason, ie more useable power or better fuel efficiency or yes just still being able to navigate all the new clean air zones.
Maybe it’s inevitable (this is PH after all) but the level of cynicism toward that stuff is a tad surprising. For info the only bit of an offshore turbine not fully recyclable are the composite and largely glass fibre blades.
I worked in offshore renewables for many years. The turbines you can commonly see offshore (Round 2 - 3-5MW output are typically about 160 ton nacelle, 170 ton tower and 75 ton monopole foundation. Roughly ~400tons for a 3.6 MW machine. All is fully recyclable, typically marine grade ferrous and non ferrous metals. The blades are typically about 10-15 tons each so roughly 40 tons, about 10% of the total installed offshore mass. If we include the array cables, offshore substations, export cables and onshore substations this drops to less than 2%.
The R3 machines are now much bigger, 15+MW - they are going so far offshore using advanced foundation designs they often can’t be seen beyond the horizon. The technologies have got to the point they produce energy more cost effectively than any other production source. There are no more subsidies. Intermittency remains an issue but there are some interesting developments, such as using them to directly electrolyse sea water to produce hydrogen.
Maybe it’s inevitable (this is PH after all) but the level of cynicism toward that stuff is a tad surprising. For info the only bit of an offshore turbine not fully recyclable are the composite and largely glass fibre blades.
I worked in offshore renewables for many years. The turbines you can commonly see offshore (Round 2 - 3-5MW output are typically about 160 ton nacelle, 170 ton tower and 75 ton monopole foundation. Roughly ~400tons for a 3.6 MW machine. All is fully recyclable, typically marine grade ferrous and non ferrous metals. The blades are typically about 10-15 tons each so roughly 40 tons, about 10% of the total installed offshore mass. If we include the array cables, offshore substations, export cables and onshore substations this drops to less than 2%.
The R3 machines are now much bigger, 15+MW - they are going so far offshore using advanced foundation designs they often can’t be seen beyond the horizon. The technologies have got to the point they produce energy more cost effectively than any other production source. There are no more subsidies. Intermittency remains an issue but there are some interesting developments, such as using them to directly electrolyse sea water to produce hydrogen.
Edited by Calinours on Tuesday 29th August 12:33
Apologies if you feel your thread has been hijacked, I guess this was always going to be the case given the topic.
My comment about wind turbines was about the blades rather than the tower etc.
For those interested, this guy is quite interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/@ClimateRealism/videos
My comment about wind turbines was about the blades rather than the tower etc.
For those interested, this guy is quite interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/@ClimateRealism/videos
BiggaJ said:
Just checked to make sure, the TFL ULEZ app wanted an update however, here are the screenshots relating to my car, I live outside the M25 in Surrey:
I just tried to check mine but the top few websites are all broken due to heavy traffic (pun not intended but quite good).From the news it seemed that ULEZ only applied to cars made before 2005 - if so, I'm in the clear too, not that I have any intention to drive into that craphole they call London.
Jon39 said:
Apparently it is specifically only the particulates from old cars, that keeps killing 4,000 people.
Another thing that pricked my ears on the news was the statement that a few years ago a child with asthma was the first person to have 'air pollution' on their death certificate. Whether there have been any more, they didn't say. But have they forgotten about the infamous London Smog? Now that really was air pollution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_LondonForums | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff