V12 Primary Cat delete. Reviews and any regrets please!
Discussion
I’m thinking of getting the primaries removed on my V12. ( Together with getting hi-flow secondaries , ecu re map etc)
Apart from the obvious peace of mind regarding the cat ingestion, I would be very grateful for any views on any potential negative drawbacks, ( residual values, performance ,noise etc?) or positive changes from folks who have had this done and consider it worthwhile.
Many thanks in advance!
Apart from the obvious peace of mind regarding the cat ingestion, I would be very grateful for any views on any potential negative drawbacks, ( residual values, performance ,noise etc?) or positive changes from folks who have had this done and consider it worthwhile.
Many thanks in advance!
Lawts0908 said:
I’m thinking of getting the primaries removed on my V12. ( Together with getting hi-flow secondaries , ecu re map etc)
Apart from the obvious peace of mind regarding the cat ingestion, I would be very grateful for any views on any potential negative drawbacks, ( residual values, performance, noise etc?) or positive changes from folks who have had this done and consider it worthwhile.
Many thanks in advance!
Apart from the obvious peace of mind regarding the cat ingestion, I would be very grateful for any views on any potential negative drawbacks, ( residual values, performance, noise etc?) or positive changes from folks who have had this done and consider it worthwhile.
Many thanks in advance!
An idea.
The firms who do this work, probably also fit their own high flow tubular exhaust manifolds.
In which case, they are likely to have a pile of standard OEM manifolds.
Buy a pair of those, then you always have the option to go back to OEM, if resale is of concern.
Ref. noise.
Have a 3-way switch fitted, because that is the only way to reduce exhaust noise throughout the rev. range.
Hi,
I have a few comments regarding "afterwards". What happens when you're through with the car, and a question - are you in the US?
I've tuned cars in the US for 13 years using hack SW. I've stopped recently BC of heightened EPA pursuits of companies modifying or removing emissions equipment on US driven cars, and with the consequences of that.
My advice to you - whatever you do, especially if removing primary CATS, make sure you can reverse the mods back to stock factory emissions once you are ready to sell the car in the US (I cannot speak for Eur). For the last couple of years I've seen dealers do inspections of tradein cars refusing to take them if emissions equipment is missing or modified. This catches an unsuspecting owner by surprise. BTW, in CA that state even checks status of the ECU for tune modifications and will reject a modded ECU in emissions inspection.
In one example, an owner of a 2017 AMG GTS with removed CATS trying to trade in and he had disposed of the primary CATS, had to pay $5,000 to purchase, reinstall primaries. Even in a private sale, if the new owner buys your modified car and cannot pass emissions in his state can sue you to purchase it back
I never have been a fan of removing primaries, even on a tuned car, but I've worked around them with aftermarket primaries if they exist; or, at least save your removed factory parts for someday when you want to sell.
I have a few comments regarding "afterwards". What happens when you're through with the car, and a question - are you in the US?
I've tuned cars in the US for 13 years using hack SW. I've stopped recently BC of heightened EPA pursuits of companies modifying or removing emissions equipment on US driven cars, and with the consequences of that.
My advice to you - whatever you do, especially if removing primary CATS, make sure you can reverse the mods back to stock factory emissions once you are ready to sell the car in the US (I cannot speak for Eur). For the last couple of years I've seen dealers do inspections of tradein cars refusing to take them if emissions equipment is missing or modified. This catches an unsuspecting owner by surprise. BTW, in CA that state even checks status of the ECU for tune modifications and will reject a modded ECU in emissions inspection.
In one example, an owner of a 2017 AMG GTS with removed CATS trying to trade in and he had disposed of the primary CATS, had to pay $5,000 to purchase, reinstall primaries. Even in a private sale, if the new owner buys your modified car and cannot pass emissions in his state can sue you to purchase it back
I never have been a fan of removing primaries, even on a tuned car, but I've worked around them with aftermarket primaries if they exist; or, at least save your removed factory parts for someday when you want to sell.
Lawts0908 said:
I’m thinking of getting the primaries removed on my V12. ( Together with getting hi-flow secondaries , ecu re map etc)
Apart from the obvious peace of mind regarding the cat ingestion, I would be very grateful for any views on any potential negative drawbacks, ( residual values, performance ,noise etc?) or positive changes from folks who have had this done and consider it worthwhile.
Many thanks in advance!
I had replacement manifolds & 200 cell secondaries done primarily to guard against the cat ingestion issue. The more cost effective option would have been to have BR remove the primary cats from the stock manifold & re-fit but I figured as I was going to the trouble of having it done I might as well go the extra mile & get the equal length manifolds.Apart from the obvious peace of mind regarding the cat ingestion, I would be very grateful for any views on any potential negative drawbacks, ( residual values, performance ,noise etc?) or positive changes from folks who have had this done and consider it worthwhile.
Many thanks in advance!
Was it worth it? Probably, but only just. I can’t say the 30-40 bhp power increase is noticeable on the road in a car that’s already delivering over 500bhp though the engine does seem to rev a bit more freely at the top end on the rare occasions when road conditions allow me to give it the beans.
The main positive is peace of mind regarding cat ingestion particularly as they aren’t making replacement engines anymore and the absence of emissions warning lights which plague some owners is a plus.
The exhaust note is significantly different. It’s a bit louder with valves open but v quiet closed and the sound has a harder edge. The ‘Aston burble’ due to the original manifolds being unequal length has gone which is a shame and I suspect would be retained if you just had the primary cats removed.
All good to know, I think I would stick to the original manifolds as I love the sound, (and am mindful of finances) also I think I would be keen to keep all appearances as close to original as possible, (albeit from the underside ) but this is obviously a matter of choice.
Thanks for the reply!
Thanks for the reply!
Lawts0908 said:
I’m thinking of getting the primaries removed on my V12. ( Together with getting hi-flow secondaries , ecu re map etc)
Apart from the obvious peace of mind regarding the cat ingestion, I would be very grateful for any views on any potential negative drawbacks, ( residual values, performance ,noise etc?) or positive changes from folks who have had this done and consider it worthwhile.
Many thanks in advance!
Will increase volume density and quality. If it's a 510bhp, should get to about 550bhp if done right and lighten the car quite a bit - the very ugly cast manifolds with two catalytic convertors per side are very heavy.Apart from the obvious peace of mind regarding the cat ingestion, I would be very grateful for any views on any potential negative drawbacks, ( residual values, performance ,noise etc?) or positive changes from folks who have had this done and consider it worthwhile.
Many thanks in advance!
Then replace with equal or unequal length manifolds. Try yhe sound of both. Replace the big catalytic convertors in the back with high-flow.
The guys at Bamford Rose have done this many times. Worth a drive there and have a cup of tea and a chat, see what you think.
Also, you can keep the old parts and refit prior to sale if you want to.
Both manifolds will fit into a single North Face XL base camp bag (sort of like a cricket coffin). But it's a heavy bag when loaded up!
It's very, very loud! At the beginning, I felt embarrassed in the noisy mode. In order to keep the valves closed you can't use the sport button which is not ideal with the sport shift gearbox and if you go above I think 3,250rpm the valves open up automatically so it means you can't really floor it and remain incognito. I've become more used to it now, downshifts are amazing but I still don't like flooring it in 1st or 2nd gear.... I haven't noticed any improvements in responsiveness or performance nor was I paying attention to it either tbh.
BR's comms were useless so went with quicksilver instead and I'm very happy that I did. Sound quality is very Aston, they have tuned it perfectly to my ear and the parts themselves are made to a very high standard.
BR's comms were useless so went with quicksilver instead and I'm very happy that I did. Sound quality is very Aston, they have tuned it perfectly to my ear and the parts themselves are made to a very high standard.
I didn't realize Quicksilver made a valved exhaust, I thought going with a aftermarket rear box would always increase sound.
I know BR recommends per their video on it, to keep the rear valveable box vs replace it, when doing their manifold changes etc.
The youtube vids of a DBS or DB9 with "only" a quicksilver rear box really are pure AM sound in my opinion. losing the lower tones and burble would make it sound less good in my book
I know BR recommends per their video on it, to keep the rear valveable box vs replace it, when doing their manifold changes etc.
The youtube vids of a DBS or DB9 with "only" a quicksilver rear box really are pure AM sound in my opinion. losing the lower tones and burble would make it sound less good in my book
Thanks Kevin,
I’m sure ingestion is a (very?)rare event, but I don’t like the nagging worry everytime I think I feel or hear my car misfiring. Also, to be honest, those primaries are in a crazy location being that close to the cylinder heads. The thought of getting my V12 trashed through pure bad luck (especially as I’m well aware of how it could be avoided) is a nightmare in the making!
I’m also quite keen to derestrict my motor and let it breathe better and logic certainly suggests removing those primaries!
Many thanks for all responses. I’m very keen to hear from people who have had the work done and their options, so do keep them coming!
I’m sure ingestion is a (very?)rare event, but I don’t like the nagging worry everytime I think I feel or hear my car misfiring. Also, to be honest, those primaries are in a crazy location being that close to the cylinder heads. The thought of getting my V12 trashed through pure bad luck (especially as I’m well aware of how it could be avoided) is a nightmare in the making!
I’m also quite keen to derestrict my motor and let it breathe better and logic certainly suggests removing those primaries!
Many thanks for all responses. I’m very keen to hear from people who have had the work done and their options, so do keep them coming!
May I ask the approximate cost of the primary cat delete please and if it can be done while you wait with the car? (QS and BR for those that had it done at either of these places)…
Would it invalidate the AM warranty on an older car (not Timeless, the one main dealers provide that’s a slight step down from Timeless but that is still sold as AM).
On a related note, is there any issue running with the exhaust valve fuse permanently out with respect to engine damage etc?
Would it invalidate the AM warranty on an older car (not Timeless, the one main dealers provide that’s a slight step down from Timeless but that is still sold as AM).
On a related note, is there any issue running with the exhaust valve fuse permanently out with respect to engine damage etc?
I have had a primary CAT delete done by BR on my V12 Vantage and now on my Vanquish. Pick up is better and the sound is comparative with a car which has had just a secondary CAT delete. Main thing is the peace of mind ref the possible ingestion issue. I didn’t want to be trying to work out if the car had developed a misfire which is not easy with 12 cylinders. Probably the car would of been fine anyway but now I don’t need to worry.
I totally understand those wishing to remove the primary CATS for the reasons explained as it makes perfect sense and I think if I were in this position I would probably have them removed, but you have to hand it to BR for casting the doubt and thereby creating the sales .... all those that I have spoken too that one would assume would be in the know i.e. AM main dealers and certain other indies have either said they've never heard of the problem or that it isn't worth worrying about if the car is maintained as it should be.
I would like to think that AM in designing where they put the CATS would have thought about their proximity to the cylinders and perhaps moved them to a safer place ... A bit like stand well back when lighting a firework. Surely in development testing any possible problem would have raised itself whether that be on the test bed or in the harshest conditions in the real world that would likely be more harsh than most owners would subject their pride and joy too.
I would like to think that AM in designing where they put the CATS would have thought about their proximity to the cylinders and perhaps moved them to a safer place ... A bit like stand well back when lighting a firework. Surely in development testing any possible problem would have raised itself whether that be on the test bed or in the harshest conditions in the real world that would likely be more harsh than most owners would subject their pride and joy too.
996Type said:
May I ask the approximate cost of the primary cat delete please and if it can be done while you wait with the car? (QS and BR for those that had it done at either of these places)…
Would it invalidate the AM warranty on an older car (not Timeless, the one main dealers provide that’s a slight step down from Timeless but that is still sold as AM).
On a related note, is there any issue running with the exhaust valve fuse permanently out with respect to engine damage etc?
The cost is about £3k, it’s quite a job, so I doubt you would be able to wait. Not sure about the warranty, you’d have to ask direct. Would it invalidate the AM warranty on an older car (not Timeless, the one main dealers provide that’s a slight step down from Timeless but that is still sold as AM).
On a related note, is there any issue running with the exhaust valve fuse permanently out with respect to engine damage etc?
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