Big power R33 Skyline / Supra TT?

[ian_uk1975]

For those with 1st-hand experience of highly-modified R33 GT-Rs or Supras, please read-on...

I've been tempted, on and off, to pick-up a big power (600BHP+) GT-R or Supra. I currently drive a lighty-modded Corvette C6 and a 400BHP+ AC Cobra replica that only weighs about 1,000kg, so I'm used to big-cube, N/A power. Years ago, I also owned a string of Mitsubishi Starion Turbos, the last of which I upped the boost on and ported/polished the head (DIY).

I've seen some YouTube vids of some silly power Supras and Skylines and have been very impressed with how they stack-up against other, quite serious, cars. Most recently, I saw a roll-on between a 1,000bhp Supra and a Murci LP640 E-gear... the Supra made the Murci look like a milk float in reverse!

So, considering all the above, I have a few questions I'm very curious to get answers to before I start thinking about possible test drives and seriously looking...

1. Simply, does a 600BHP+ Supra/Skyline make sense for road use?

2. Would a 600BHP+ Skyline/Supra be gutless and boggy off-boost?

3. I've seen a few dyno charts and found that big singles don't really start boosting until about 4,500rpm-5,000rpm, which would seem to translate into a frustrating driving experience on the road?

4. Just as a yard stick for comparison purposes, what are realistic 0-100mph and 1/4 ETs?

Any other advise greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Ian.

[ShadownINja]

Owned a ~650bhp Skyline R32 GTR. (By owned I mean had my name on the V5. I'm not an American geek gamer who likes to "pwn" people.)

1. Simply, does a 600BHP+ Supra/Skyline make sense for road use?

Depends. A big single turbo is tricky to drive when you need to overtake or want to drive progressively on anything but a straight, empty road; you need to plan ahead of time as it can be 200bhp until 4500 RPM then you get all 600bhp.

Very amusing in the snow, I can tell you.

Really depends on the set up.

2. Would a 600BHP+ Skyline/Supra be gutless and boggy off-boost?

See above. You need to adapt your driving to suit. When I first got it, I was left behind by an old lady in a Micra as I was driving it like a big engined V8. You need to feather the clutch until you feel the turbo kicking in... and then release it smoothly. Takes more practice.

3. I've seen a few dyno charts and found that big singles don't really start boosting until about 4,500rpm-5,000rpm, which would seem to translate into a frustrating driving experience on the road?

As above. I gotta stop replying to stuff before you ask it. Typical. Just like when I do exams. They say you should read the paper, but do I?

4. Just as a yard stick for comparison purposes, what are realistic 0-100mph and 1/4 ETs?

It would have been funny if question 4 read, "Do you read the whole exam paper before writing your answer?"

I think you can do a 7 second 0-100 time if you practice enough. 1/4 mile runs are usually about 10 seconds.

All of the above depends on the set up (twin turbo vs big single). The difference is power delivery vs cost. Modern big singles are better, I've heard.

Personally, I would choose a 450bhp GTR twin turbo over a 600bhp GTR single turbo for road and track use.

[Rotary Madness]

Ive never really had a problem with turbo lag on my cars, i mean mine are no where enar as powerful, mine are about half that, but it depends how lazy you are really. Since you would be coming from big n/a v8's you would be used to just planting your foot and usding the torque to get everywhere.

The turbo engines are fine, just have to keep them on the boil ie above the revs where that start to boost. All this means really is you have to change gear more often, but i think it gives a more involved drive overall. But like mentioned above you're gona have to be careful about the transition from lag -> full boost, especially if its on a corner or pulling out froma junction.

Good thing is though is turbo lag is awsome fun

[DirtyHarry88]

What about a 600hp twin turbo?

[Stu R]

Big power GTR's are great fun, but bloody expensive to keep at their best. Certainly useable as an everyday car if you're prepared to look after it. I'll let others extoll the virtues of the Supra, but in terms of off boost performance the GTR isn't too bad depending on how it's been tuned, but you'll probably be disappointed if comparing it to the instant grunt that comes with a big V8, until it starts building boost anyway.

The old days of T88 and the likes where you'd have nothing until 7k RPM then a thousand revs of acceleration before trying to grab the next gear are long gone. There's a plethora of turbos out there with all sorts of spool characterists and flow ratings, making good boost with fast spool ups is easily possible, especially with some of the single turbo's out there these days.

Much like Shadowninja I'd probably go for something a little lower in the power stakes, it's great fun but ultimately frustrating not being able to use it properly. If you want some serious grunt buy a car with little in the way of engine tuning done and get a RIPS RB30 built. They're rediculously impressive, very very cost effective and Rob over in NZ is a top bloke.

There's some mighty impressive Supras floating around too. Whilst Skylines are generally pretty solid and reliable I'd imagine a Supra to be cheaper to maintain, and a tad more reliable from what I gather at least. Very different cars to drive though, so try both.

[chuntington101]

any reason you dont want to mod the vett?? you can get a bolt on SC kit that will make 600bhp. Just a thought.....

Chris.

[ian_uk1975]

chuntington101 said:

any reason you dont want to mod the vett?? you can get a bolt on SC kit that will make 600bhp. Just a thought.....

Chris.

Indeed, but I could get a nice modded Supra/Skyline for about £10k less than the Vette would owe me if I supercharged it. Still considering it though.

Thanks for all the other responses, which confirm what I was thinking. After getting used to big V8s, where you can just floor it in any gear and any RPM and have instant acceleration, I think I'd find a highly-modded Skyline/Supra an exercise in frustration on the road. For drag use, they're obviously perfect, but for road use, I'm unconvinced. As suggested, settling for a lower output Skyline/Supra would improve driveability on the street, but then it wouldn't, ultimately, be as fast either. In the Vette, I rarely use more than 3k-4k RPM, such is the wall of torque from the engine. Burbling round town, I never need to use more than ~1k RPM! With a blower conversion, driveablity would remain exactly the same, but I'd get an extra ~200BHP that builds progressively from low-down (just off idle, if I went for a roots-type blower). Then again, going FI with a stock bottom end makes me nervous and going forged is mega money.

Hmm, I'll continue marinating.

Thanks,
Ian.

[liner33]

A 600hp skyline with no other supporting mods , ie brakes , suspension etc etc isnt going to be a lot of fun and "properly" sorted cars seem to be few and far and very expensive, rightly so

You see people throw a lot of money at these cars with little thought to what the final package will be , i've seen so many cars with good peak figures but little power below 5000rpm, i'd rather stick hot pins in my eyes than have a car like that

[Wadeski]

To be fair, while its convenient to be able to put your foot down in any gear, you can argue that having to think a little bit more about how you drive, managing your boost and revs, can be very rewarding?

[ShadownINja]

Like anything, that's true. Driving a car on the limit (in snow or rain, perhaps) with no driver's aids, for instance (thinking TVR Chimaera here), can be very satisfying.

That's why we're driving enthusiasts. It's about getting the best out of the vehicle in question whether it's a 600 bhp monster or a 5bhp st box Golf.

When I had the GTR, it took about a month or so to get used to changing my driving style before I could accelerate briskly around town.

Edited by ShadownINja on Tuesday 3rd March 14:49

[RichardD]

Gazboy said:

Could you really floor a 500lbs.ft @1000rpm Vette and still have traction?

The dyno graph I have for a 6.9 LS engine (in Brummie's Cerbera) only has just under 400lb/ft at 1k revs. It doesn't get over 500lb'ft until around 4k revs. Still having plenty torque at low revs means the car benefits from taller gearing to turn torque into a higher roadspeed. His current gearing allows 59mph in first and 89mph in 2nd

[chuntington101]

if you are talking about a Positive displacemnt blower thne yes you will have alot of torque down low. one guy with a Kenne Bell 2.8lltr supercharger on a 402inch LS2 was making about 800lbsft from 2500rpm i think. it was nuts and he had little traction in lower gears....but you aren't in low gears all the time.....and if you take your car to a track day it would be nice not to have to red line the thing all the time to get any where. also this would be easier on the enigne..

the package i was thinking about was a paxton 1500 centrifugal supercharger. these things are getting popular in the US as they make great starting kits for people just getting into forced induction on the vette and still give you lots of head room for later. i can piost links to a guys thats just installed one on his C6 (US) later.

Just for people that dont know these Superchargers build boost with RPM. so you dont have peak boost till the red line (or near there).

Cheers

Chris.

[cptsideways]

My Soarer runs a 1JZ (2.5L shot stroke 2JZ engine) pick the right sizes turbo & you'll have an extremely lively engine. Mine makes boost at 2k rpm, full boost by 3500 rpm & spools up instantly on partial throttle at anything above 3500rpm. Lively is'nt the word for it! Changing the exhaust housing from a .63 to .82 transforms the livelyness to something a little more subtle.

[chuntington101]

here is that car withthe Centi. Supercharger...

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-forced-inductio...

Cheers

Chris.

[Wadeski]

captsideways, can we get some more details of your turbo: size, ratio etc and what mods you have done to get such a fast spool?

[RobCrezz]

Wadeski said:

captsideways, can we get some more details of your turbo: size, ratio etc and what mods you have done to get such a fast spool?

Im interested too.

Im going to take a guess at a Garret GT30r series?

[cptsideways]

RobCrezz said:

Wadeski said:

captsideways, can we get some more details of your turbo: size, ratio etc and what mods you have done to get such a fast spool?

Im interested too.

Im going to take a guess at a Garret GT30r series?

Garret GT3076r 0.63 exhaust housing, standard non ported inlet side .70 I think from memory. External wastegate on a SS cheapy manifold. The exhuast side is probably too small for a road car, it will surge under continued lower rpm loading that I rarely see in trackside drift use, on a road car you'd be going sideways everywhere! its way way to lively from a road based traction point of view. However fitting the next size exhaust housing up would make a great road car set up, with predicatable spool up etc.

4th gear at 4000 rpm in the dry it lights the 255 rears up almost instantly, though I've only got 400kg at the back end which probably does'nt help.

My 1210kg car does very low 12's on the drag strip, with a severe lack of traction in a typically stiff drift set up. It runs up to 1.8 bar but is best around the 1.4-1.5 bar mark.

[chuntington101]

cptsideways said:

RobCrezz said:

Wadeski said:

captsideways, can we get some more details of your turbo: size, ratio etc and what mods you have done to get such a fast spool?

Im interested too.

Im going to take a guess at a Garret GT30r series?

Garret GT3076r 0.63 exhaust housing, standard non ported inlet side .70 I think from memory. External wastegate on a SS cheapy manifold. The exhuast side is probably too small for a road car, it will surge under continued lower rpm loading that I rarely see in trackside drift use, on a road car you'd be going sideways everywhere! its way way to lively from a road based traction point of view. However fitting the next size exhaust housing up would make a great road car set up, with predicatable spool up etc.

4th gear at 4000 rpm in the dry it lights the 255 rears up almost instantly, though I've only got 400kg at the back end which probably does'nt help.

My 1210kg car does very low 12's on the drag strip, with a severe lack of traction in a typically stiff drift set up. It runs up to 1.8 bar but is best around the 1.4-1.5 bar mark.

sound like a great combo mate! bet you are pushing that GT30r to its limits though! ever thought about trying a 35r?? i know spool iss a very important thing in drifting but you can do thing to reduce it.

Chris.

[cptsideways]

The turbo is in optimum efficiency around the 1.4 bar mark which is about 430hp of flow roughly, turbo efficiency drops off massively at about 1.8bar which is about 540hp of flow, (probably somewhat less with the smaller exhaust housing). The engine restriction is the inlet manifold it can't breath much above 450-460 without silly boost. But 450 is plenty & I don't really need any more than that.

I would much rather have a usuable & responive lesser overall power curve than poor response & silly top end power. At present it spools up on partial throttle, with a bigger exhaust housing you'd be full throttle & waiting.