Lower temp Otter Switch, is it a good thing?
Lower temp Otter Switch, is it a good thing?
Author
Discussion

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

I just replaced my otter switch with a lower temp one, also replaced the temp sender and relocated it to the higher position, everything works as it should, the fans kick in bang on where they should etc, but I've noticed now the fans are on most of the time it seems, coolant level is good, but since I've done it I've developed a misfire/hesitation perhaps, also when the engine is warm very erratic idle, my thinking is that the engine bay is having hot air almost permanently blown around it possibly overheating the electrics, is it just a coincidence and I'm talking crap, or is there some logic there? the car wasn't running perfect any way, so possibly just finished off what was already failing. I assumed it was a vacuum leak, but maybe my issue was electrical all along, failing leads or coil maybe?

Belle427

11,858 posts

262 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
What temp on the gauge does it drop to?
Could be that it is now overcooling and falling back into its warm up enrichment and overfuelling hence the slightly rough running.
The engine bay is notoriously hard on electrical components but I would refrain from just changing parts willy nilly as most aftermarket stuff is garbage.

Distributor doctor is seen as best for cap and rotor.
Original old stock Lucas on eBay for ignition module, DAB118.
Leads most use either standard V8 ones from craddocks or Mr Retro on ebay.

Magnecor leads are seen as junk by most who know and I seem to remember you have them fitted?

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Its a motaclan 87-82 switch, yes i have magnecor leads, I've been meaning to change them as they do look old and I'll change the distributor cap etc, thanks for the recommendation. One of the jobs i was going to look into one day was ceramic coating on the Y piece and manifolds, its supposed to be quite effective

Sardonicus

19,440 posts

250 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Generality a lower temp otter switch is used in conjunction a cooler/lower temp coolant thermostat or the fans will run more often scratchchin

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Sardonicus said:
Generality a lower temp otter switch is used in conjunction a cooler/lower temp coolant thermostat or the fans will run more often scratchchin
I think i have one of those too, fitted it last year i belive

PabloGee

869 posts

49 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
It might be worth considering putting the otter switch and thermostat back to original spec. I'm not sure why people change those - but that's probably my lack of understanding.

Then changing the leads/rotor arm/dizzy cap/spark plugs/ignition amplifier/coil feels like a good step by step path to isolating the cause.

Change the spark plugs to BPR6ES if you get the Craddock leads, BP6ES if you get the Mr Retro leads.

I also assume you have thrown out the spark plug extenders?

BritishTvr450

584 posts

28 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Andy70 said:
I think i have one of those too, fitted it last year i belive
So you have removed the thermostat and replaced it. If you did this you will have to have replaced the thermostat housing gasket and refilled and bled the cooling system and I doubt you d forget that!

As said you are taking big risks throwing parts at the car especially when they are not the correct rating.
Fact is Tvr when running at speed can over cool especially in cold weather which is why temp gauge often only reads 75 when on the move so you re actually throwing a spanner in the works if you start changing components that are not the correct rating.
If anything replacing these parts will likely introduce an airlock in the system because you must surely have coolant loss by replacing them and not re bleeding the system.

Air often finds it way to the top of the engine and gets trapped at its highest point which happens to be in the inlet manifold right where the Ecu temp sensor sits and why there is a short rubber bleed pipe mounted to the inlet manifold in that area to help bleed air out and all Tvr experts I ve watch bleed the system always open that bleed valve and connect it via another length of hose to the filler jug they re using to add coolant to the swirl pot and bleed air out always making sure the hose stays submerged in the coolant jug. Trapped air here will cause spurious readings which the Ecu uses to correct fuelling requirements to cool/ heat the engine. The effect is the same as a failing Ecu temp sensor which is often responsible for rough running.

At the very least you have to first make sure you have no air in the system which requires it to be re bled because until you can confirm that s not an issue you are pissing in the wind trying to diagnose any other related problems.

Listen to what Sardonicus and Belle says as they know what they are talking about. Keep it simple and don t change anything unless it s proven to have failed.

Bleeding the system is fairly straight forward, look up old threads on bleeding the system for your car which also includes the use of an expansion bottle as earlier cars don t have an expansion tank fitted. Start by checking the expansion bottle is about 1/3 full.
Follow the instructions to the letter and do bleed out the inlet pipe. Under pressure that pipe will soon flow constant coolant into your filling jug and air will no longer be present. I always then trapped the inlet bleed pipe with some crimps so I can now plug it with the Allen bolt. Once all air has passed into your filling jug from the rest of the system you can shut engine off and remove the filler jug and replace swirl pot bolt.

Let it cool down to room temp and open swirl bolt. Check its full ( often the system settles down and the water level will actually be about 10 mm from the top. This is normal ) You can top it up if you like. Check the expansion bottle is about 1/3 full at this point. You might find when it warms up to full temp the extra bit of water you topped up has now been blown out and into the expansion bottle. I bet when you open the swirl pot bolt the level will be 10 mm from the top.
You now know where your water level should sit in the swirl pot when cold.
Always make sure the expansion bottle is 1/3 full cold. This allows water to be pushed into it when extremely hot (expansion) then drawn back in to swirl pot as it cools down. Never let it run dry. That will draw air into the system and your back to square one.
This all sounds complicated but do it right and it s easy to bleed.
In my view if you suspect any problems with the cooling system I d always start by doing a cold coolant level check by checking expansion bottle is 1/3 full and removing the swirl pot bolt and checking your level there is where you d expect it to be.
If your expansion bottle ever runs dry you ll draw air into the system so it s important to keep an eye on it and work out from experience how full it needs to be. No higher than 1/2 full cold as it needs the space for when expanded coolant finds its way in there. This is how it works but unless you are constantly in traffic and hot weather it doesn t actually push much coolant into / out of it at all.

If your having to keep topping up coolant into expansion tank there s a leak somewhere but again in very warm conditions as we have had this summer evaporation can happen and the level might rise/ drop slightly.

This as a long term owner is one of the best things to keep checking. Simply by opening the expansion bottle you can check the overall level and what might or hopefully might not be going on. Over the years I probably had to top up my expansion bottle a few times a year by a small amount and after a long continental journey of over 3000 miles when I got home the expansion tank was quiet low. Topped up and all was well but if it ever runs dry you need coolant straight away and if the car starts to run rough possibly have air reintroduced into the system frown

I wouldn t change thermostat or otto switches for lower temp ones as that too can cause corrections by the Ecu to fuelling and air mixture trying to compensate for readings it perceives to be too low.
RG I believe will show data which can confirm if these readings are in the correct window or not.



Edited by BritishTvr450 on Tuesday 15th September 14:00

BritishTvr450

584 posts

28 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
PabloGee said:
It might be worth considering putting the otter switch and thermostat back to original spec. I'm not sure why people change those - but that's probably my lack of understanding.

Then changing the leads/rotor arm/dizzy cap/spark plugs/ignition amplifier/coil feels like a good step by step path to isolating the cause.

Change the spark plugs to BPR6ES if you get the Craddock leads, BP6ES if you get the Mr Retro leads.

I also assume you have thrown out the spark plug extenders?
This ^^^^^ is why we should only change one critical component at a time and confirm it’s working before moving on.
What a Pita this is but as we no longer trust any given after part is reliable well worth heeding this warning.

BritishTvr450

584 posts

28 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Running a more modern Ecu and reading the engine temp readings on a lap top you can clearly see and watch when the fans come on and off.

At 92 the fans kick in, they run until the engine drops back to anything from 85 - 88 degrees depending on Ecu settings which I think on the CUX is fans on 92 off 88
Then back on when temp reaches 92.

Extreme hot conditions might mean fans stay on longer such as in slow moving or stationary traffic. They should be capable of keeping max temp at 92 even after many minutes of constant operation.
As soon as you get upto anything over 50 mph even in hot climbs the fans should go off pretty quickly, I did one of those mountain roads with lots of twists and turns in 32 degrees and hot brakes and stops and turns, as you can imagine the fans ran almost constantly but in general at speed the radiator will cool the car and fans stay off.

My car ran stationary at a Tvr centre for over 30 mins cycling the fans on off between 92-85 back to 92 as set by engine mapper and everytime the engine reached 92 fans came on within seconds. My engine was being ran at different rev settings as mapper did some other checks but also ran on tickover for quite some time.
So this is how your car’s cooling system operates on the CUX
Generally in the past when we lived in a colder climb 8 months of the year you were more at risk if over cooling the car because it can be hard to get car fully upto temp as the cooling system at speed is over efficient and why many temp gauges barely reached 75-80 on the move.
Climate change has been good for Tvr, they are upto temp and more efficient more often hehe


Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
PabloGee said:
It might be worth considering putting the otter switch and thermostat back to original spec. I'm not sure why people change those - but that's probably my lack of understanding.

Then changing the leads/rotor arm/dizzy cap/spark plugs/ignition amplifier/coil feels like a good step by step path to isolating the cause.

Change the spark plugs to BPR6ES if you get the Craddock leads, BP6ES if you get the Mr Retro leads.

I also assume you have thrown out the spark plug extenders?
I have those spark plugs, BPR6ES, fitted about a month ago, will change the rotor etc as soon as I can, I still have the extenders as I'm still looking for an alternative, I tried angled leads, a recommendation from here but the angles aren't long enough so they were chaffing on a red hot pipe directly above, so they lasted about half an hour before they went, the extenders are fully working I think as i have 2 sets and changed them and car runs the same, so assume they are all in order.
I changed them in an effort to make the engine cooler I guess as I seem to think a lot of issues under the bonnet of one of those is heat related, seems to have backfired lol


Edited by Andy70 on Tuesday 15th September 19:56

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
BritishTvr450 said:
So you have removed the thermostat and replaced it. If you did this you will have to have replaced the thermostat housing gasket and refilled and bled the cooling system and I doubt you d forget that!

As said you are taking big risks throwing parts at the car especially when they are not the correct rating.
Fact is Tvr when running at speed can over cool especially in cold weather which is why temp gauge often only reads 75 when on the move so you re actually throwing a spanner in the works if you start changing components that are not the correct rating.
If anything replacing these parts will likely introduce an airlock in the system because you must surely have coolant loss by replacing them and not re bleeding the system.

Air often finds it way to the top of the engine and gets trapped at its highest point which happens to be in the inlet manifold right where the Ecu temp sensor sits and why there is a short rubber bleed pipe mounted to the inlet manifold in that area to help bleed air out and all Tvr experts I ve watch bleed the system always open that bleed valve and connect it via another length of hose to the filler jug they re using to add coolant to the swirl pot and bleed air out always making sure the hose stays submerged in the coolant jug. Trapped air here will cause spurious readings which the Ecu uses to correct fuelling requirements to cool/ heat the engine. The effect is the same as a failing Ecu temp sensor which is often responsible for rough running.

At the very least you have to first make sure you have no air in the system which requires it to be re bled because until you can confirm that s not an issue you are pissing in the wind trying to diagnose any other related problems.

Listen to what Sardonicus and Belle says as they know what they are talking about. Keep it simple and don t change anything unless it s proven to have failed.

Bleeding the system is fairly straight forward, look up old threads on bleeding the system for your car which also includes the use of an expansion bottle as earlier cars don t have an expansion tank fitted. Start by checking the expansion bottle is about 1/3 full.
Follow the instructions to the letter and do bleed out the inlet pipe. Under pressure that pipe will soon flow constant coolant into your filling jug and air will no longer be present. I always then trapped the inlet bleed pipe with some crimps so I can now plug it with the Allen bolt. Once all air has passed into your filling jug from the rest of the system you can shut engine off and remove the filler jug and replace swirl pot bolt.

Let it cool down to room temp and open swirl bolt. Check its full ( often the system settles down and the water level will actually be about 10 mm from the top. This is normal ) You can top it up if you like. Check the expansion bottle is about 1/3 full at this point. You might find when it warms up to full temp the extra bit of water you topped up has now been blown out and into the expansion bottle. I bet when you open the swirl pot bolt the level will be 10 mm from the top.
You now know where your water level should sit in the swirl pot when cold.
Always make sure the expansion bottle is 1/3 full cold. This allows water to be pushed into it when extremely hot (expansion) then drawn back in to swirl pot as it cools down. Never let it run dry. That will draw air into the system and your back to square one.
This all sounds complicated but do it right and it s easy to bleed.
In my view if you suspect any problems with the cooling system I d always start by doing a cold coolant level check by checking expansion bottle is 1/3 full and removing the swirl pot bolt and checking your level there is where you d expect it to be.
If your expansion bottle ever runs dry you ll draw air into the system so it s important to keep an eye on it and work out from experience how full it needs to be. No higher than 1/2 full cold as it needs the space for when expanded coolant finds its way in there. This is how it works but unless you are constantly in traffic and hot weather it doesn t actually push much coolant into / out of it at all.

If your having to keep topping up coolant into expansion tank there s a leak somewhere but again in very warm conditions as we have had this summer evaporation can happen and the level might rise/ drop slightly.

This as a long term owner is one of the best things to keep checking. Simply by opening the expansion bottle you can check the overall level and what might or hopefully might not be going on. Over the years I probably had to top up my expansion bottle a few times a year by a small amount and after a long continental journey of over 3000 miles when I got home the expansion tank was quiet low. Topped up and all was well but if it ever runs dry you need coolant straight away and if the car starts to run rough possibly have air reintroduced into the system frown

I wouldn t change thermostat or otto switches for lower temp ones as that too can cause corrections by the Ecu to fuelling and air mixture trying to compensate for readings it perceives to be too low.
RG I believe will show data which can confirm if these readings are in the correct window or not.



Edited by BritishTvr450 on Tuesday 15th September 14:00
Cool, interesting read, the system I think is been bled correctly, in fact this is the 2nd time I've done it, so point taken , bad idea, I'll change otter switch back etc as I have kept it, I'll double check my records regarding the thermostat as I cant really remember, I did buy it from TVRSSW though, I do remember that, I'm still trying to get to the bottom of my lumpy tick over problem, done lots to the car and it's loads better than it was. I've cleaned the air filter, added injector cleaner at some point, replaced a really dodgy spade connector on the coil, that was barely hanging on, that would have caused a few problems, but like I said it's nearly there now, or it was until yesterday lol. Otter switch was changed a week ago so it's been running ok for a week. Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear, it wasn't an instant problem, it was driving ok for a week or so.
I was booked in to take it to TVRSSW soon but I had to cancel

Car was plugged into an RG a chap off here brough one over, the parameters seemed to be in order I think

Edited by Andy70 on Tuesday 15th September 20:17

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Belle427 said:
What temp on the gauge does it drop to?
Could be that it is now overcooling and falling back into its warm up enrichment and overfuelling hence the slightly rough running.
The engine bay is notoriously hard on electrical components but I would refrain from just changing parts willy nilly as most aftermarket stuff is garbage.

Distributor doctor is seen as best for cap and rotor.
Original old stock Lucas on eBay for ignition module, DAB118.
Leads most use either standard V8 ones from craddocks or Mr Retro on ebay.

Magnecor leads are seen as junk by most who know and I seem to remember you have them fitted?
Looking at those leads on Ebay, Mr. retro and they do a 10mm set, is there any value in larger leads, better heat dispersal etc?

PabloGee

869 posts

49 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
I have the 8mm Mr Retro leads, with angled boots, and no extenders.
I added a set of Design Engineering heat socks, and they have been great for 3 years so far.

Design Engineering 010542... https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006MVPIAI?ref=ppx_pop...

When I spoke to Mr Retro (Anthony) he said I should buy the non-resistive spark plugs, as his leads carried the right resistance. So if you go for his leads, double check with him on that detail.

10mm over 8mm - not sure it s necessary, but I m not an expert.

I agree with BritishTvr450 on the approach to swapping key parts - one by one to isolate the issue.

Belle427

11,858 posts

262 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
No real need for 10mm leads, it is a bit of an issue on the car that's why extenders were used.
The Accel ceramic type look very good but I have read reports about the ends breaking down quickly and also sticking on to the plugs.
I suppose you could remove regularly to stop the sticking or try some dielectric grease.
Some of the American leads are better built in my experience and seem suited to the heat better, Accel and MSD do make some nice products.
I had a set of Taylor spiro pro wires some years ago on a Ford 302 in a Cobra replica, they had very nice slim silicone ends at the plugs which might have worked well on the TVR.

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
Belle427 said:
No real need for 10mm leads, it is a bit of an issue on the car that's why extenders were used.
The Accel ceramic type look very good but I have read reports about the ends breaking down quickly and also sticking on to the plugs.
I suppose you could remove regularly to stop the sticking or try some dielectric grease.
Some of the American leads are better built in my experience and seem suited to the heat better, Accel and MSD do make some nice products.
I had a set of Taylor spiro pro wires some years ago on a Ford 302 in a Cobra replica, they had very nice slim silicone ends at the plugs which might have worked well on the TVR.

ok I'll look into those, I don't fancy the socks as that just looks like a cheap aftermarket afterthought (no offence to people who use them), I'd prefer something that looks more like it should be there, that's why I like the extenders, yes I'm aware of the stories and they are no doubt true, but as I have 2 complete sets that appear to be ok so far, I'm happy to use them until I find an alternative. Like I said I tried angled leads but they were too short and fouled on a hot pipe and lasted literally half an hour. That's why I'm also keen on ceramic coating the exhaust as I can't bring myself to wrap my exhaust in bandages lol

I think I've seen those Accel extenders, white if I recall? I think and seem promising and if there is some preventative treatment for them then all good

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
All your comments are really interesting guys and start to replace my electrics, oh and the otter switch, not looking forward to the thermostat though as I remember that was a pig of a job I think, but my tool set is crap lol

drcarlos

62 posts

221 months

Yesterday (13:05)
quotequote all
The switch I recently had from Motoclan was faulty, used to switch on at the correct temp and not switch off until the engine was almost fully cooled. I purchased a Lucas switch from ebay and a known parts supplier. It now works perfectly. Conclusion was the Motoclan switch was Chinese junk.

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Yesterday (13:16)
quotequote all
drcarlos said:
The switch I recently had from Motoclan was faulty, used to switch on at the correct temp and not switch off until the engine was almost fully cooled. I purchased a Lucas switch from ebay and a known parts supplier. It now works perfectly. Conclusion was the Motoclan switch was Chinese junk.
I must say that does sound about right, it does seem to say on for a very long time. It was only 12 quid i believe, That probably explains it

PabloGee

869 posts

49 months

Yesterday (15:14)
quotequote all
Let them know at Motaclan, they are not generally striving to sell junk.

Andy70

Original Poster:

1,453 posts

188 months

Yesterday (15:16)
quotequote all
PabloGee said:
Let them know at Motaclan, they are not generally striving to sell junk.
Yeah thats a fair point