Optimum Performance Wheel / Tyre Setup?
Discussion
What would be the best performance oriented setup of wheel / tyre sizes for fast road if aesthetics are taken out of the question?
Tried scouring the various wheel threads, but couldn't find anything conclusive, and visual factors seeming to be more of a priority.
Wheel
- Diameter (balance between wheel and tyre weight as well as benefits of lower profile tyres)
- Width (appropriate for power / grip requirements, but not fouling or making steering too heavy)
- Offset (to fit)
- Different specs front / rear
- Lightweight options (any OEM forged wheels about from other marques that fit?)
Tyres
- Profile
- Aspect ratio
- Availability
For a non-PAS 400HC.
Cheers
Tried scouring the various wheel threads, but couldn't find anything conclusive, and visual factors seeming to be more of a priority.
Wheel
- Diameter (balance between wheel and tyre weight as well as benefits of lower profile tyres)
- Width (appropriate for power / grip requirements, but not fouling or making steering too heavy)
- Offset (to fit)
- Different specs front / rear
- Lightweight options (any OEM forged wheels about from other marques that fit?)
Tyres
- Profile
- Aspect ratio
- Availability
For a non-PAS 400HC.
Cheers
Edited by Strudul on Wednesday 26th August 13:00
Not for the TVR but there's a comparison done on a Golf here I suspect there's actually too many factors to give a definitive answer unless you narrow some of the variables like just comparing one wheel design.
I noticed on my previous daily how much heavier summer wheel/tyre combo was compared to my winter setup 16" vs 17" but on my current car the summers are a lighter weight wheel and so there's not much in it despite the wider, larger diameter wheels.
I noticed on my previous daily how much heavier summer wheel/tyre combo was compared to my winter setup 16" vs 17" but on my current car the summers are a lighter weight wheel and so there's not much in it despite the wider, larger diameter wheels.
I wanted to be able to stop reliably on track days, so went for 324mm Focus RS front disks and suitable calipers.
To accommodate these I went for 17 inch wheels all round, the TVR front to rear rake can be dealt with by tyre sizes.
Loads of wheels available in 4 stud Ford fit. I run mine with 5mm spacers, as the Ford wheels are ET38, so a tad further into the wheel arch than the TVR wheels
My favourite tyre sizes are 215/45 17 front and 235/45 17 rear.
I also have a set of Silverstone SP12 wheels, which you can get from ACT. They cost an arm and a leg, and are the correct offset and 17 inch front, 18 inch rear. I run 215/45 17 front and 235/40 18 rear on those wheels
My favourite road tyres are Uniroyal Rainsports. Outstanding grip in all weather conditions, and not stupidly expensive.
To accommodate these I went for 17 inch wheels all round, the TVR front to rear rake can be dealt with by tyre sizes.
Loads of wheels available in 4 stud Ford fit. I run mine with 5mm spacers, as the Ford wheels are ET38, so a tad further into the wheel arch than the TVR wheels
My favourite tyre sizes are 215/45 17 front and 235/45 17 rear.
I also have a set of Silverstone SP12 wheels, which you can get from ACT. They cost an arm and a leg, and are the correct offset and 17 inch front, 18 inch rear. I run 215/45 17 front and 235/40 18 rear on those wheels
My favourite road tyres are Uniroyal Rainsports. Outstanding grip in all weather conditions, and not stupidly expensive.
From a purely technical standpoint on braking you need the largest diameter tyre, with the smallest shoulder height, and then fit the largest diameter brake you can inside that wheel. All other things being equal this gives you the greatest leverage ratio of mean effective disc radius over tyre contact patch radius. It also gives you the highest linear disc speed past the pad for any given angular disc speed which makes modulation of the brake on the limit of adhesion / lock up easier to manage.
That wheel/tyre might not give you the best cornering though especially if you run the car low which naturally increases the rate of change of camber for any given vertical displacement of the wheel, especially at the front. Very low profile tyres are naturally intolerant of large camber changes.
I very much doubt anyone in the tvr world has done enough in depth testing of available options to give you any kind of definitive answer, or even close.
The best thing might be just to take on the advice of people like qbee above and others who regularly track their cars, and try to find the average of all the offerings, and treat that as your base start point.
That wheel/tyre might not give you the best cornering though especially if you run the car low which naturally increases the rate of change of camber for any given vertical displacement of the wheel, especially at the front. Very low profile tyres are naturally intolerant of large camber changes.
I very much doubt anyone in the tvr world has done enough in depth testing of available options to give you any kind of definitive answer, or even close.
The best thing might be just to take on the advice of people like qbee above and others who regularly track their cars, and try to find the average of all the offerings, and treat that as your base start point.
QBee said:
I wanted to be able to stop reliably on track days, so went for 324mm Focus RS front disks and suitable calipers.
To accommodate these I went for 17 inch wheels all round, the TVR front to rear rake can be dealt with by tyre sizes.
Loads of wheels available in 4 stud Ford fit. I run mine with 5mm spacers, as the Ford wheels are ET38, so a tad further into the wheel arch than the TVR wheels
My favourite tyre sizes are 215/45 17 front and 235/45 17 rear.
I also have a set of Silverstone SP12 wheels, which you can get from ACT. They cost an arm and a leg, and are the correct offset and 17 inch front, 18 inch rear. I run 215/45 17 front and 235/40 18 rear on those wheels
My favourite road tyres are Uniroyal Rainsports. Outstanding grip in all weather conditions, and not stupidly expensive.
This ^^^^^ I run the exact same set up as Qbee As in 17 inch wheels all round 7.5 j so use 5 mm concentric spacers and employing the biggest brakes/ discs as possible lol . To accommodate these I went for 17 inch wheels all round, the TVR front to rear rake can be dealt with by tyre sizes.
Loads of wheels available in 4 stud Ford fit. I run mine with 5mm spacers, as the Ford wheels are ET38, so a tad further into the wheel arch than the TVR wheels
My favourite tyre sizes are 215/45 17 front and 235/45 17 rear.
I also have a set of Silverstone SP12 wheels, which you can get from ACT. They cost an arm and a leg, and are the correct offset and 17 inch front, 18 inch rear. I run 215/45 17 front and 235/40 18 rear on those wheels
My favourite road tyres are Uniroyal Rainsports. Outstanding grip in all weather conditions, and not stupidly expensive.
brembo E38 Calipers with 324mm Ford Focus discs.
The 17 all round does give it an air of modernness, more conformist to recent thinking,
It also allows pretty much any brake combination you want to put under them.
I also run 215/45/17 front which is about as large as can fit in and not cause problems ( but can catch on full lock ) depending on car?
235/45/17 rears are also a snug fit. The profile being 45 with these sizes increases outside Dia somewhat, enough for me to notice it feels higher geared slightly I’m sure of it.
Using Rainsport 3 and there are other suitable brands now days these sizes and tyre compound combination have reduced my poor road holding and improved comfort markedly The car glides over bumps as the tyres are so soft. Fantastic and one of the best changes I ever made was to get off Toyo proxies and onto RS3 in these sizes. 40 profile on a 17 rim is just not enough and it looks rubbish, these are visibly more chunky wider and fatter looking. They do a great job In cushioning the car/ chassis from much of our broken roads. Road holding is like night and day compared to most old tyres.
Also to o/p geometry stays the same so no changes strictly necessary.
On standard shocks the car body will sit slightly more level so less front rake by a few mm But I’ve found no ill effects simply because the tyres comply with the road surface better and offer so much more base grip it’s a win win
Most importantly they fill the arch and the tyre radius looks almost exactly like the arch so uniform looking. They look brill
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 26th August 20:11
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 26th August 20:15
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 26th August 20:30
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 26th August 20:32
indigochim said:
Not for the TVR but there's a comparison done on a Golf here I suspect there's actually too many factors to give a definitive answer unless you narrow some of the variables like just comparing one wheel design.
I noticed on my previous daily how much heavier summer wheel/tyre combo was compared to my winter setup 16" vs 17" but on my current car the summers are a lighter weight wheel and so there's not much in it despite the wider, larger diameter wheels.
Caranddrvier did a good comparison too, but was hoping for something more specific.I noticed on my previous daily how much heavier summer wheel/tyre combo was compared to my winter setup 16" vs 17" but on my current car the summers are a lighter weight wheel and so there's not much in it despite the wider, larger diameter wheels.
QBee said:
I also have a set of Silverstone SP12 wheels, which you can get from ACT. They cost an arm and a leg, and are the correct offset and 17 inch front, 18 inch rear. I run 215/45 17 front and 235/40 18 rear on those wheels
How do these compare to all 17s? (Weight, handling, accel)Classic Chim said:
This ^^^^^ I run the exact same set up as Qbee As in 17 inch wheels all round 7.5 j so use 5 mm concentric spacers and employing the biggest brakes/ discs as possible lol .
Any reason for not going 8J on the rear with 245s? No need for the extra traction and it just adds more unsprung weight?Strudul said:
Any reason for not going 8J on the rear with 245s? No need for the extra traction and it just adds more unsprung weight?
No you can go to 8 J no bother and the 235 fit slightly better. 245 may cause rubbing on the inside of the rear wheel arches, you can trim them back and re fibreglass them so indeed 245 should fit I think! Re pressures, the same as 15/16 standard 22/24 or there abouts.
Those tire sizes worked well but whether or not they are optimum, who knows?
Given the chim weighs just over a ton, by comparison my Porsche Boxster S which weighs 1.3 tons and obviously has had huge research and development by Porsche, runs 265/35/19 & 235/35/19.
Given the above I believe the sizes I was using for my 17" wheels were probably, "optimum ".
Maybe!
Edited to put the right wheel size in!
Given the chim weighs just over a ton, by comparison my Porsche Boxster S which weighs 1.3 tons and obviously has had huge research and development by Porsche, runs 265/35/19 & 235/35/19.
Given the above I believe the sizes I was using for my 17" wheels were probably, "optimum ".
Maybe!
Edited to put the right wheel size in!
Edited by phazed on Thursday 27th August 08:36
phazed said:
Those tire sizes worked well but whether or not they are optimum, who knows?
Given the chim weighs just over a ton, by comparison my Porsche Boxster S which weighs 1.3 tons and obviously has had huge research and development by Porsche, runs 265/35/19 & 235/35/19.
Given the above I believe the sizes I was using for my 17" wheels were probably, "optimum ".
Maybe!
That's actually not a bad way of thinking about it, although OEMs don't focus on performance so much as comfort and styling.Given the chim weighs just over a ton, by comparison my Porsche Boxster S which weighs 1.3 tons and obviously has had huge research and development by Porsche, runs 265/35/19 & 235/35/19.
Given the above I believe the sizes I was using for my 17" wheels were probably, "optimum ".
Maybe!
Maybe a better guide is the Lotus Europa SE which comes with 7J 195/45/17 on the front, 8J 235/40/18 rears and has a similar weight / power to the chim.
Maybe but the Lotus is old school regarding tyre technology.
Believe me, the Boxster will run rings round a chim regarding handling , in fact double rings round a chim with standard size tyres. I am sure, "comfort" wasn't high on the R&D list although with their superior, (and costly) suspension setup,it's surprisingly good.
I digress.....
Believe me, the Boxster will run rings round a chim regarding handling , in fact double rings round a chim with standard size tyres. I am sure, "comfort" wasn't high on the R&D list although with their superior, (and costly) suspension setup,it's surprisingly good.
I digress.....
phazed said:
Maybe but the Lotus is old school regarding tyre technology.
Believe me, the Boxster will run rings round a chim regarding handling , in fact double rings round a chim with standard size tyres. I am sure, "comfort" wasn't high on the R&D list although with their superior, (and costly) suspension setup,it's surprisingly good.
I digress.....
The Europa is the same year as your Boxster?Believe me, the Boxster will run rings round a chim regarding handling , in fact double rings round a chim with standard size tyres. I am sure, "comfort" wasn't high on the R&D list although with their superior, (and costly) suspension setup,it's surprisingly good.
I digress.....
On about this thing:
phazed said:
Ah ha! I'm showing my age, the old Europa sprung to mind.
I wonder what the weight is of that, probably lighter than a Boxster.
Having driven an Exige on track which seem to defy the laws of physics, I'm sure that handles brilliantly.
HereI wonder what the weight is of that, probably lighter than a Boxster.
Having driven an Exige on track which seem to defy the laws of physics, I'm sure that handles brilliantly.
1010kg and 221bhp, so not far off. Discrepancies would be lower torque (221 lb/ft) and the fact it's mid-engined, so maybe that justifies a slightly wider rear on the chim?
Quite possibly.
People need to be reminded that a good quality tyre improves handling no end. Good quality equals higher cost but the difference in handling can be phenomenal.
I have seen posts on here where people are talking about changing tyres on their chims and fit mediocre tyres. These tyres will, "do" but you will never achieve great handling with these.
To be fair to some, they are happy just burbling about and an expensive tire would probably be wasted. You're talking about optimum tyre sizes, ( and so quality of tyres) so a top quality tyre is essential.
Top quality, (nearly always) tyres give the best handling, that's what you pay for. Given this, you don't need the widest tyre and can get away with a slightly narrower tyre as we have often seen with guys running track tyres that are very good quality but not necessarily the optimum size. Handling is still excellent.
As for good quality tyres, I did wince when fitting a new pair to the back of my Boxster, cost for a pair of Bridgestones was £510! That was after shopping around.
People need to be reminded that a good quality tyre improves handling no end. Good quality equals higher cost but the difference in handling can be phenomenal.
I have seen posts on here where people are talking about changing tyres on their chims and fit mediocre tyres. These tyres will, "do" but you will never achieve great handling with these.
To be fair to some, they are happy just burbling about and an expensive tire would probably be wasted. You're talking about optimum tyre sizes, ( and so quality of tyres) so a top quality tyre is essential.
Top quality, (nearly always) tyres give the best handling, that's what you pay for. Given this, you don't need the widest tyre and can get away with a slightly narrower tyre as we have often seen with guys running track tyres that are very good quality but not necessarily the optimum size. Handling is still excellent.
As for good quality tyres, I did wince when fitting a new pair to the back of my Boxster, cost for a pair of Bridgestones was £510! That was after shopping around.
Strudul said:
Caranddrvier did a good comparison too, but was hoping for something more specific.
That suggests that for better acceleration the lightest wheel/tyre combo performed best. I think that shows that there's no one best tool for the job but it depends on what you want out of the setup. Probably why QBee and Phazed appear to run 2 sets of wheels/tyres presumable for track and road use.Yes, I run Toyo R888r on track (or used racing slicks, or Yokohama A048), and Uniroyal Rainsprout 3s on the road.
I also have the latter on my daily Saab. They work from cold and keep you in a straight line even when you hit a river at 70 at night that is flowing across a dual carriageway. The last time I saw a crashed Boxster on the A1 it had hit a similar river and swapped ends
I also have the latter on my daily Saab. They work from cold and keep you in a straight line even when you hit a river at 70 at night that is flowing across a dual carriageway. The last time I saw a crashed Boxster on the A1 it had hit a similar river and swapped ends
phazed said:
As for good quality tyres, I did wince when fitting a new pair to the back of my Boxster, cost for a pair of Bridgestones was £510! That was after shopping around.
Ouch, I'd highly recommend looking at Tyreleader when you're shopping for tyres again. I've bought my last few sets from them using both the deliver to home and deliver to one of their affiliated fitters I did find the tyre fitter didn't get much in the way of communication of who the tyres where for or when to expect them so if you do use that method I'd call up and chat to the fitter.indigochim said:
That suggests that for better acceleration the lightest wheel/tyre combo performed best. I think that shows that there's no one best tool for the job but it depends on what you want out of the setup. Probably why QBee and Phazed appear to run 2 sets of wheels/tyres presumable for track and road use.
Lightest wheel / tyre possible is always best - unsprung weight reduction improves accel and handling 4 fold compared to sprung weight.However, you also need to hit requirements for tyre width for traction / grip, wheel diameter for brake fitment, and sidewall size / stiffness for ride / handling.
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