Intermittent starting issue
Discussion
On 3 occasions now I’ve not been able to start the car
1. Trying to setup Rovergauge I’d been amongst the cables in the foot well to connect the cable then started the car put back in the garage and then the following time I came to use it it wouldn’t start. Starter motor spins strongly but not firing up. Had to go out so left it util the following day where I tried again and it starts 1st time without doing anything.
2. Trying to establish why blower fan wasn’t working (I now know it just needed the switch pushing in) I checked the fuses all ok put back and tried to start the car. I noticed that I couldn’t hear the fuel pump priming so checked the relays they felt as if they were activated, swapped the 2 similar ones over to test but still no joy. Had to push it back into the garage. Tried it the following day and all ok started straight away.
3. Started fitting new dash last night dismantled the existing one taking components off the old dash one at a time and reconnecting them behind the dash. Packed away for the evening and no fuel pump noise, engine turns over strongly but doesn’t start.
I’ve tried both sets of keys, and remotes. Arming and disarming the alarm/immobiliser. As I do I can hear relays in the immobiliser clicking. I've tried again this morning as still the same.
I thought it may be the immobiliser at fault but as the starter spins I’m not sure as I thought it disabled both.
As far as diagnosing where the fault lies is my best plan
Test for power at fuel pump
If no power Test for power on the switched side of the relay
If no Power test for power at un-stitched side of relay.
Then test for power coming from Immobiliser? How can I do this? It’s the Meta system on a 1998 Chimaera.
Any tips would be appreciated I’m not familiar with wiring and the likes although the Farther in Law who’s helping has more of an idea. I would have assumed I'd disturbed something in the dash had this not done the same previously.
1. Trying to setup Rovergauge I’d been amongst the cables in the foot well to connect the cable then started the car put back in the garage and then the following time I came to use it it wouldn’t start. Starter motor spins strongly but not firing up. Had to go out so left it util the following day where I tried again and it starts 1st time without doing anything.
2. Trying to establish why blower fan wasn’t working (I now know it just needed the switch pushing in) I checked the fuses all ok put back and tried to start the car. I noticed that I couldn’t hear the fuel pump priming so checked the relays they felt as if they were activated, swapped the 2 similar ones over to test but still no joy. Had to push it back into the garage. Tried it the following day and all ok started straight away.
3. Started fitting new dash last night dismantled the existing one taking components off the old dash one at a time and reconnecting them behind the dash. Packed away for the evening and no fuel pump noise, engine turns over strongly but doesn’t start.
I’ve tried both sets of keys, and remotes. Arming and disarming the alarm/immobiliser. As I do I can hear relays in the immobiliser clicking. I've tried again this morning as still the same.
I thought it may be the immobiliser at fault but as the starter spins I’m not sure as I thought it disabled both.
As far as diagnosing where the fault lies is my best plan
Test for power at fuel pump
If no power Test for power on the switched side of the relay
If no Power test for power at un-stitched side of relay.
Then test for power coming from Immobiliser? How can I do this? It’s the Meta system on a 1998 Chimaera.
Any tips would be appreciated I’m not familiar with wiring and the likes although the Farther in Law who’s helping has more of an idea. I would have assumed I'd disturbed something in the dash had this not done the same previously.
It sounds like an intermittent fault in the part of the immobiliser that covers the fuel pump. The immobiliser covers more than one circuit. I believe that this is a fault created by the way the factory wired the immobiliser. Others can give you Encyclopaedia Britannia on this.
I was having this sort of trouble on my 1999 car about 4 years ago. In the end i said Sierra Oscar Delta this and took the car to Carl Baker, emptied my wallet (£600 ish), had a new, latest, Mets system fitted, and have never had a problem since. And I got a remote boot opener button on my key too. Bonus.
There are much cheaper ways of fixing the issue. I just decided not to go there because I use the car a lot and do track days. I wanted a permanent guaranteed fix, rather than be stuck in the pits on a £350 track day at Brands Hatch, watching everyone else having fun. Pays your money etc, and Carl has a good reputation.
I was having this sort of trouble on my 1999 car about 4 years ago. In the end i said Sierra Oscar Delta this and took the car to Carl Baker, emptied my wallet (£600 ish), had a new, latest, Mets system fitted, and have never had a problem since. And I got a remote boot opener button on my key too. Bonus.
There are much cheaper ways of fixing the issue. I just decided not to go there because I use the car a lot and do track days. I wanted a permanent guaranteed fix, rather than be stuck in the pits on a £350 track day at Brands Hatch, watching everyone else having fun. Pays your money etc, and Carl has a good reputation.
Hi QBee, thanks for the tip. OT I'll hopefully be able to return your heat socks soon as my far east order has arrived. I just need to cut them to size and fit them over my new leads. I'm pretty sure my shunting issue is now sorted. A combo of arcing plug extenders, ignition amp, and insulation on the king lead when running it's now smooth
I've searched for immobiliser info and I now realise the unit with the relays I can hear is the alarm not the immobiliser if I can test this and prove the rest of the system is fine I see I can buy a new M36T2 unit quite cheaply anyone know if they're just a plug in replacement to my existing one?
The other likely suspect sounds like the relays for fuel pump and ECU. I guess I can easily test these and that swapping them hasn't truly tested this and just moved where the issue may be.
I've searched for immobiliser info and I now realise the unit with the relays I can hear is the alarm not the immobiliser if I can test this and prove the rest of the system is fine I see I can buy a new M36T2 unit quite cheaply anyone know if they're just a plug in replacement to my existing one?
The other likely suspect sounds like the relays for fuel pump and ECU. I guess I can easily test these and that swapping them hasn't truly tested this and just moved where the issue may be.
It's clearly a fault in whatever controls whether the fuel pump runs or not (or a sticking fuel pump, but i have never heard of that issue).
The immobiliser and the relays are your two targets, I agree.
I think those two relays in the footwell are not entirely identical, by the way, and that while you can swap them over to see if it solves the problem, you should not leave them swapped over. I have a feeling that leaving them the wrong way round flattens the battery pdq
The immobiliser and the relays are your two targets, I agree.
I think those two relays in the footwell are not entirely identical, by the way, and that while you can swap them over to see if it solves the problem, you should not leave them swapped over. I have a feeling that leaving them the wrong way round flattens the battery pdq
The Fuel & ecu relays are the same and can be swapped, although if either is faulty/intermittent will not help in diagnosing the issue.
Get a couple of new ones (worth having a couple of spares of these anyway) Relay part no: BOSCH 0 332 014 112
As Qbee mentioned you can substitute with a normal relay but these will flatten the battery PDQ if left in once the vehicle is stopped as it will leave the lambda heater circuit on until the battery is flat, so only do this as a get you home emergency fix !!
Get a couple of new ones (worth having a couple of spares of these anyway) Relay part no: BOSCH 0 332 014 112
As Qbee mentioned you can substitute with a normal relay but these will flatten the battery PDQ if left in once the vehicle is stopped as it will leave the lambda heater circuit on until the battery is flat, so only do this as a get you home emergency fix !!
The fuel pump circuit has several plug/sockets and the immobiliser in the circuit.
An intermittent contact on any one of these will prevent the pump priming and /or running.
This may help:
http://www.bertram-hill.com/fuel-pump-schematic.ht...
The black plug/sockets in the footwell and the ones behind the B post can get damp so are good places to check.
Do not be surprised while trying to localise the fault that it disappears, but give the contacts a good clean anyway.
Best of luck!
An intermittent contact on any one of these will prevent the pump priming and /or running.
This may help:
http://www.bertram-hill.com/fuel-pump-schematic.ht...
The black plug/sockets in the footwell and the ones behind the B post can get damp so are good places to check.
Do not be surprised while trying to localise the fault that it disappears, but give the contacts a good clean anyway.
Best of luck!
Thanks for the tips and links all.
I'll hopefully get some time this evening to have a look. I see that there's a fuel cutoff switch on the schematic linked what am I looking for with this in order to check I don't need to just reset this. I understand it's in the passenger foot-well somewhere.
I've managed to find the relays on eurocarparts there website is a pain as it insists on asking what sort of vehicle you have then telling you it hasn't got the part. I discovered that you can search better on their ebay store and then get their part number, 450220610 in this case, to use on the proper website.
I'll hopefully get some time this evening to have a look. I see that there's a fuel cutoff switch on the schematic linked what am I looking for with this in order to check I don't need to just reset this. I understand it's in the passenger foot-well somewhere.
I've managed to find the relays on eurocarparts there website is a pain as it insists on asking what sort of vehicle you have then telling you it hasn't got the part. I discovered that you can search better on their ebay store and then get their part number, 450220610 in this case, to use on the proper website.
wseed said:
........I see that there's a fuel cutoff switch on the schematic linked what am I looking for with this in order to check I don't need to just reset this. I understand it's in the passenger foot-well somewhere..........
It's up under the lip of the lower dash pretty much above the passengers right knee. If it has tripped there should be a warning light on the dash to tell you.To reset it you would put your hand under the dash, palm up, with your finger bent back so you can press the reset button that faces forwards. The button has a soft rubber diaphragm.
Steve
Steve_D said:
wseed said:
........I see that there's a fuel cutoff switch on the schematic linked what am I looking for with this in order to check I don't need to just reset this. I understand it's in the passenger foot-well somewhere..........
It's up under the lip of the lower dash pretty much above the passengers right knee. If it has tripped there should be a warning light on the dash to tell you.To reset it you would put your hand under the dash, palm up, with your finger bent back so you can press the reset button that faces forwards. The button has a soft rubber diaphragm.
Steve
Loubaruch said:
The fuel pump circuit has several plug/sockets and the immobiliser in the circuit.
An intermittent contact on any one of these will prevent the pump priming and /or running.
This may help:
http://www.bertram-hill.com/fuel-pump-schematic.ht...
It certainly did.An intermittent contact on any one of these will prevent the pump priming and /or running.
This may help:
http://www.bertram-hill.com/fuel-pump-schematic.ht...
Loubaruch said:
....and the ones behind the B post can get damp so are good places to check.
This one!
Bingo
You can see where this contact has been causing trouble here.
Another problem sorted off the list I just need to sort this mess next
To fit these
Thanks all for the tips once more PH comes to the rescue.
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