clak clak clak :)

[Rebelmatic]

Morning chaps (and ladies of course)

Been enjoying the old girl during these lovely sunny days we've been having.. long may they continue...

seemed to have developed a bit of a rattle coming from somewhere on the drivers side engine bay. title kinda describes it.

Doesn't do it when she's cold.. not until she gets to about 80 degrees (well, according to my temp gauge lol)

no loss of power... just the sound..

thoughts always appreciated.... just don't tell me she's about to blow up

Picture paints a thousand word.... so here a video.. ClakClak

as always...thanks for your thoughts

Reb.

[ChimpOnGas]

Don't panic, that's classic exhaust manifold leak noise for sure.

Replace the manifold gaskets with decent big port ones and use ARP bolts to make reassembly and future gasket changes easier.

All parts available from Tim at ACT, here's the kit I used some six years ago when removing the pre-cats from my manifolds :

http://www.actproducts.co.uk/product/ms17c-arp-gas...

The Nordlock washers work Ok but I found I needed to periodically tighten up my new ARP header bolts in the first two years following installation, after that they seemed to take requiring no further tightening, the manifolds have remained leak free up to this day which is a good six years after doing the job.

Removing the manifolds is a nasty job, so if you can afford to pay someone else to skin their knuckles I'd definitely recommend giving the work to a TVR specialists who will undoubtedly have built up a set of spanners for the job and through experience will have developed lots of tricks to get the job done quickly.

If I were you I'd be included to re-gasket both manifolds even if it's only one side leaking, I would also take the opportunity to remove the pre-cats which are not required to meet emissions as the main cat is perfectly capable by itself. Removing the pre-cats wont give you more performance, you'll need to eliminate the main cat for that. But with the pre-cats removed your manifolds will run a little cooler reducing engine bay heat which puts a lot less stress on everything else, especially electrical components close by like your starter motor and alternator.

Hope this helps?

Dave.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Friday 26th May 11:00

[Rebelmatic]

Thanks for the quick response Dave

as you say.. reassuring to know what it is, and easy to identify for those in the know too!!!

is it ok to run like that for a while, or would you say get it fixed asap?? If its not impending mechanical doom I can live with the noise til funds are more readily available

cheers

Martyn (Reb)

[ChimpOnGas]

Rebelmatic said:

Thanks for the quick response Dave

as you say.. reassuring to know what it is, and easy to identify for those in the know too!!!

is it ok to run like that for a while, or would you say get it fixed asap?? If its not impending mechanical doom I can live with the noise til funds are more readily available

cheers

Martyn (Reb)

See my emitted enhanced response above for additional advice on all this Martyn.

I would definitely get the gaskets changed sooner rather than later because it'll only ever get worse, once the the super heated exhaust gasses start escaping from a small failed area they'll soon start to blow a bigger and bigger hole in the gasket.

You could try just tightening up your bolts but if the gaskets are damaged already this will have little or no effect, gasket replacement becomes the only solution and that means the manifold/s will have to come off.

As stated above I would be inclined to re-gasket both manifolds at the same time, use the quality gasket set, ARP bolts and Nordlock washers from ACT, and also take the opportunity to get shot of your pre-cats.

Do try nipping up your bolts first though, actually if you look at the official service advice from TVR on these cars they made exhaust manifold bolt tightening part of 6/12k service schedule. They did this because they knew the damn header bolts go lose on a regular basis

I do hope tightening your bolts works for you but don't count on it lasting, you'll almost certainly find a few bolts lose but good luck getting to the bottom ones which are much easier to get at if you remove the starter motor by the way

Good luck, Dave

[Rebelmatic]

lol.. I should have read properly in the first place.. I completed didn't register the last few lines on your first post!!

cool... so time to break out eh bent spanner set and see whats loose to start with.

thanks for all the advice and tips Dave, i'll let you know how I get on..

next stop.. Amazon for chainmail gloves

M.

[pb450]

ChimpOnGas said:

Don't panic, that's classic exhaust manifold leak noise for sure.

Replace the manifold gaskets with decent big port ones and use ARP bolts to make reassembly and future gasket changes easier.

All parts available from Tim at ACT, here's the kit I used some six years ago when removing the pre-cats from my manifolds :

http://www.actproducts.co.uk/product/ms17c-arp-gas...

The Nordlock washers work Ok but I found I needed to periodically tighten up my new ARP header bolts in the first two years following installation, after that they seemed to take requiring no further tightening, the manifolds have remained leak free up to this day which is a good six years after doing the job.

Removing the manifolds is a nasty job, so if you can afford to pay someone else to skin their knuckles I'd definitely recommend giving the work to a TVR specialists who will undoubtedly have built up a set of spanners for the job and through experience will have developed lots of tricks to get the job done quickly.

If I were you I'd be included to re-gasket both manifolds even if it's only one side leaking, I would also take the opportunity to remove the pre-cats which are not required to meet emissions as the main cat is perfectly capable by itself. Removing the pre-cats wont give you more performance, you'll need to eliminate the main cat for that. But with the pre-cats removed your manifolds will run a little cooler reducing engine bay heat which puts a lot less stress on everything else, especially electrical components close by like your starter motor and alternator.

Hope this helps?

Dave.

Apolgies to the OP for thread hijack but do you think these would work on my MGB V8 Dave? 3.5 Rover V8 so I don't see why not. I have stainless manifolds, the flanges of which tend to 'move' around with time and heat. I've replaced the gaskets a couple of times in recent years but they're blowing again. Grrr... My mechanic has had them off in an attempt to square up all faces with the heads but still they blow. Are these gaskets the answers to my prayers?

Edited by pb450 on Friday 26th May 11:47

[ukdj]

pb450 said:

Apolgies to the OP for thread hijack but do you think these would work on my MGB V8 Dave? 3.5 Rover V8 so I don't see why not. I have stainless manifolds, the flanges of which tend to 'move' around with time and heat. I've replaced the gaskets a couple of times in recent years but they're blowing again. Grrr... My mechanic has had them off in an attempt to square up all faces with the heads but still they blow. Are these gaskets the answers to my prayers?

Cant see why not, as long as the ports line up ok, you could also go belt and braces with some high temp RTV as well to seal it.

[pb450]

ukdj said:

Cant see why not, as long as the ports line up ok, you could also go belt and braces with some high temp RTV as well to seal it.

Thanks Paul.

[phazed 11.83]

Possibly a rocker pad......?

[ChimpOnGas]

phazed 11.83 said:

Possibly a rocker pad......?

Peter, the video really does sound part exhaust chuff part metallic clack which as we know is so indicative of a leaking manifold gasket on these cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdV5xbOOAhw&fe...

But I guess you could be right?

However, given the sound I'd definitely encourage the OP to at least check the tightness of his header bolts on the noisy bank first

Either way, lets hope its an easy fix for Martyn.

And lets hope its not this sort of clack clack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCJzv2TvWDA

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Friday 26th May 17:03

[andy43]

That sounds broken. My nuts slackened off a bit (phnarr) and the noise under load from the drivers seat was a lot higher pitched, more of a pinking type sound.

[Classic Chim]

Doesn't do it until warm. Would that not rule out gaskets ?

[ChimpOnGas]

Classic Chim said:

Doesn't do it until warm. Would that not rule out gaskets ?

Not really Alun, its very common for exhausts to be quiet when cold but start to chuff a little when warm, don't forget the heads are aluminum and the manifolds are steel so their expansion rates are different, this bi-metalic interface can exasperate the effect just like an ally head on a cast iron block may only present weeping head gasket symptoms when the engine is fully warm.

My money is still on exhaust manifold gaskets, watch the video again, there's a point where the engine revs are raised and the noise actually diminishes, this is because the engine isn't under any load, the car is sat and not being driven so how can the engine be under load? Don't confuse load with rpm, when a car is stationary the engine isn't really under any true load at all. However, when the engine speed is raised the exhaust gasses will have have sped up so they are flowing better down the header tube rather than finding their way out of the open face between the head & the header pipe, this is why the noise diminishes at one point as the revs are increased. If it was something mechanical like a rocker pad I would expect the noise to be consistent and increase in frequency when the revs are raised and in direct proportion to the rise in rpm, irrespective of load.

With exhaust leaks true engine load is important factor though, so if the OP takes the car for a drive and puts the engine under proper load by accelerating up a hill from a slow speed in a high gear I bet under these conditions the chuff will get louder. This is because the exhaust gasses will be relatively slow compared to the cylinder pressures which will be significantly raised due to the increase in true engine load, for these reasons the engine load test is a very reliable way to prove if the issue is leaking exhaust manifold gaskets. The OP could also use a section of hose as a stethoscope to listen closer for the chuff/clack or even simply check the tightness of his header bolts which in my humble opinion will very likely be loose.

I feel the above is more helpful than scaring the already concerned OP with statement like

andy43 said:

That sounds broken

I always try to think how I would feel if I came on here with worrying engine noises asking for help, I really wouldn't want to hear Mr Smug say things like "That sounds broken", and I suspect neither would he if he was unfortunate enough to be in the same boat.

These cars are well known to make noises from leaking exhaust manifolds that can also sound oddly metallic, so with this in mind and going on the video audio I'd say its well worth starting with a quick check for manifold leaks before jumping to the rather unhelpful "That Sounds Proper Foooked Mate" type of comments.

Good luck to the OP, do drop back and let us know what you've found.

Dave.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Friday 26th May 19:30

[QBee]

The clattery sound can also be a leak in the weld where the 4 pipes go into one on the manifold. Stick one end of a piece of plastic or rubber tube in your ear, start the car, and move the other end of the tube around the manifold. You will hear where the leak is

[ChilliWhizz]

We need to make some clear distinctions here, ensure we are using the same terminology, and, where possible use the same terms of reference... for the avoidance of doubt, our choices include (but are not limited to) the following: knock, tick, clatter, clack, and of course, the ubiquitous chuff. For the sake of clarity I have omitted squeak, ping, bang, rattle and roll. Sorry, I meant rumble. Whilst I can't find any of these in the owners hand book, I am given to understand they were widely used in the factory, particularly on Friday afternoons. Of course to further confuse the aural diagnostic enthusiast we have, on the induction side, gasp, wheeze, whistle and suck. This leaves growl and throb although these are I think particularly subjective....

Anyway, just my two penneth and I hope it throws some light on the problem...

Have a nice day

Chilli

[Classic Chim]

ChimpOnGas said:

I always try to think how I would feel if I came on here with worrying engine noises asking for help, I really wouldn't want to hear Mr Smug say things like "That sounds broken", and I suspect neither would he if he was unfortunate enough to be in the same boat.

These cars are well known to make noises from leaking exhaust manifolds that can also sound oddly metallic, so with this in mind and going on the video audio I'd say its well worth starting with a quick check for manifold leaks before jumping to the rather unhelpful "That Sounds Proper Foooked Mate" type of comments.

Good luck to the OP, do drop back and let us know what you've found.

Dave.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Friday 26th May 19:30

Coolio, mine loosened off, not loose enough to cause knocking/tapping as such just a more fluffy sound.
Nipped them up and ironically my valve train seems quieter with less taps so maybe it was looser than I initially thought.
I'd rather them work loose every now and then rather than get them so tight I'll struggle to get them off again.
I've got a couple of spanners for the job so it's not a big deal. Just realised exhaust was off so making n/s lower bolts accessible or it would be impossible as far as I can see.

So depending on how or where the gases escape you can get different sounds from these as I think mine had been loose for a few months at least before I even detected it.

Def rule this our o/p by checking for air escaping around each manifold joint.
I'm old school builder once apon a time, adapt and overcome was our moto
Use what you have and all that, an old feather off a bird is what I used, literally lying on the ground from some scrap or cats interference with one of our feathered friends. I had gloves on
It worked a treat and instantly showed where the gases blew over it.
I'm sure I think seeing the feather there was what provoked me to even check come to think of it.
I've mentioned and posted about valve train noise, I'm suspecting some of this was just loose manifold bolts. I nipped them just before Shakey and haven't driven the car since until last night, started it twice but that was it, it's very quiet on valve train noise, it's not likely a coincidence is it.

[ChimpOnGas]

ChilliWhizz said:

We need to make some clear distinctions here, ensure we are using the same terminology, and, where possible use the same terms of reference... for the avoidance of doubt, our choices include (but are not limited to) the following: knock, tick, clatter, clack, and of course, the ubiquitous chuff. For the sake of clarity I have omitted squeak, ping, bang, rattle and roll. Sorry, I meant rumble. Whilst I can't find any of these in the owners hand book, I am given to understand they were widely used in the factory, particularly on Friday afternoons. Of course to further confuse the aural diagnostic enthusiast we have, on the induction side, gasp, wheeze, whistle and suck. This leaves growl and throb although these are I think particularly subjective....

Anyway, just my two penneth and I hope it throws some light on the problem...

Have a nice day

Chilli

Good summary there Chilli, but you have clearly omitted moan, grumble and whine... three sounds that could quite easily be coming from your TVR... or just as easily be emanating from the TVR owner himself.

To identify the origins of the moan, grumble or whine one should take a short length of hose and listen carefully to your laptop while viewing the Piston Heads TVR forum.

Before long you will likely hear all three noises, the only proven cure being for said TVR owner to buy a more reliable marque that wasn't thrown together some 20 years ago in a Blackpool shed.

An Aston perhaps?

[ChilliWhizz]

ChimpOnGas said:

Good summary there Chilli, but you have clearly omitted moan, grumble and whine... three sounds that could quite easily be coming from your TVR... or just as easily be emanating from the TVR owner himself.

To identify the origins of the moan, grumble or whine one should take a short length of hose and listen carefully to your laptop while viewing the Piston Heads TVR forum.

Before long you will likely hear all three noises, the only proven cure being for said TVR owner to buy a more reliable marque that wasn't thrown together some 20 years ago in a Blackpool shed.

An Aston perhaps?

Dave, you are of course, quite right. I did omit moan, grumble, and whine. Using modern vernacular, that would be 'My bad', as the youngsters say...

Before I got divorced, moan and grumble accompanied me on many road trips, usually resulting in ear ache, and always in the left one. Or port side as we say in marine parlance. Whine was also commonplace in my youth, typically emanating from behind my left ear, from somewhere in the vicinity of the back axle. Whine is still a commonplace thing in my life, but these days it doesn't have an h in it

As to a more reliable marque, beastie has, in nearly seven years, never left me stranded, or in need of third party assistance. It is though, extraordinary although maybe understandable the number of ex (and current) TVR owners that have moved on to AM loveliness As to AM reliability, so far so good, but I'll let you know in another 12 months

OP, sorry for going off topic, I overdosed on the boring woffle pills this morning

Chilli

[ChimpOnGas]

ChilliWhizz said:

ChimpOnGas said:

Good summary there Chilli, but you have clearly omitted moan, grumble and whine... three sounds that could quite easily be coming from your TVR... or just as easily be emanating from the TVR owner himself.

To identify the origins of the moan, grumble or whine one should take a short length of hose and listen carefully to your laptop while viewing the Piston Heads TVR forum.

Before long you will likely hear all three noises, the only proven cure being for said TVR owner to buy a more reliable marque that wasn't thrown together some 20 years ago in a Blackpool shed.

An Aston perhaps?

Dave, you are of course, quite right. I did omit moan, grumble, and whine. Using modern vernacular, that would be 'My bad', as the youngsters say...

Before I got divorced, moan and grumble accompanied me on many road trips, usually resulting in ear ache, and always in the left one. Or port side as we say in marine parlance. Whine was also commonplace in my youth, typically emanating from behind my left ear, from somewhere in the vicinity of the back axle. Whine is still a commonplace thing in my life, but these days it doesn't have an h in it

As to a more reliable marque, beastie has, in nearly seven years, never left me stranded, or in need of third party assistance. It is though, extraordinary although maybe understandable the number of ex (and current) TVR owners that have moved on to AM loveliness As to AM reliability, so far so good, but I'll let you know in another 12 months

OP, sorry for going off topic, I overdosed on the boring woffle pills this morning

Chilli

Eloquent as ever Mr Whizz, your concept of removing the 'h' from whine to eliminate this sound is quite simply a work of genius and one I have used myself to drown out this particularly frustrating noise... a noise that also often emanates from the passenger seat area of my TVR.

I value your excellent informative contribution and share your apology to the OP for taking his post in a slightly more light hearted direction

[BeastMaster]

Sounds more like a mechanical noise to me, but very difficult just using the sound.

It may help to drive up a hill at quite low revs and see if the sound changes with more throttle.

As said before could be a steel rocker pad, but this would be noise even when cold, but sometimes they have a crack allowing a bit more tolerance as things heat up.

The ARP bolts with Nord washers is a good solution, in my experience I center punched the bolt flange to give a better grip on the washer which cured the coming loose problem. The ARP bolt are very hard and will not bite into the washer if just fitted.

The manifolds can be modified by slotting the bottom row of holes which allows for the gaskets and lower row of bolts to be fitted before installing the manifolds, this saves a lot of time because with the manifolds in place the bottom row of bolts are very limited for space between the chassis rail.

In the last 11 years have had 3 rocker pads, and before changing to ARP bolt 3 manifold gasket and 2 loose bolt problems, all of which had a different noise, so can be quite difficult to diagnose, but from what I hear on U tube its probably one of the above.

Good Luck

Andy