Jag wafty ride quality, RIP?
Discussion
My father in law has just bought an 11 reg XF 3 litre diesel luxury with 6K on it for £26995. saved nearly £14k on the new price and a lovely thing it is too. He took my wife and I out for a blast across Cranborne Chase in Dorset and I was mightily impressed with the body control and general poise and pace of what is a big car. However, coming from a 9 year old VW Passat which is a bit soft but has a lovely ride, I found the jag just a bit firm and crashy on 19 inch wheels over the rougher B road surfaces on our route. Lot of tyre noise too. Now I havent been in a "proper" jag since the 1980s in an XJ6,but I just wondered if the old waftiness of Jags is now a thing of the past? What do Jag XF owners think? I guess Jag are adapting to a market that seems to want track day composure on every type of vehicle. To be honest, I cant believe im saying this, but for biffing about locally on our crap roads, my old Veedub is a fair bit more comfy!! Would still love the Jag however and hope that when he trades it on in, oh about 10 years, it might come my way!!
I suspect you're right. When Jaguars were for 50+ board directors they were 'magic carpet'. But then things changed and everything is aimed at 20-somethings, so you get giant wheels with rubber-band tyres and brushed aluminium instead of walnut. Just like BMW and Audi. Which is a pity.
The ride is good on our 3.0D on 18s - definitely one of the best features of the car. On a typical english B road (ie not a perfect road surface) at times it is quicker than my Boxster or 330Ci which I used to own as it remains more composed and allows you to 'keep your foot down', whereas in the other cars you wouldn't necessarily be able to!
cslwannabe said:
The ride is good on our 3.0D on 18s - definitely one of the best features of the car. On a typical english B road (ie not a perfect road surface) at times it is quicker than my Boxster or 330Ci which I used to own as it remains more composed and allows you to 'keep your foot down', whereas in the other cars you wouldn't necessarily be able to!
I find mine similar, but would add that the high speed ride is very well composed, the low speed it does feel firm IMO.Very noticeable coming from an XJR X350.
cslwannabe said:
The ride is good on our 3.0D on 18s - definitely one of the best features of the car. On a typical english B road (ie not a perfect road surface) at times it is quicker than my Boxster or 330Ci...
This is the point...We want 'waft', not the ability to go round a right-angle bend at 70mph. Board directors get someone else to do the hurrying for them
Simpo Two said:
I suspect you're right. When Jaguars were for 50+ board directors they were 'magic carpet'. But then things changed and everything is aimed at 20-somethings, so you get giant wheels with rubber-band tyres and brushed aluminium instead of walnut. Just like BMW and Audi. Which is a pity.
No it isn't. Customer base of "trad Jag" is either dead, dying or in a home chasing after matron. Seriously - you can sell an Old man a young man's car, but not the other way round. When has being grey, old and infirm been aspirational? Back to the modern Jaguar ride quality - compromise (trade off between body control and ride) is BIC -absolutely spot on. Over the same piece of scarred b-road just try a modern Audi or even <shudders> a BMW on runflats....
Edited by FWDRacer on Monday 30th January 14:47
FWDRacer said:
Simpo Two said:
I suspect you're right. When Jaguars were for 50+ board directors they were 'magic carpet'. But then things changed and everything is aimed at 20-somethings, so you get giant wheels with rubber-band tyres and brushed aluminium instead of walnut. Just like BMW and Audi. Which is a pity.
No it isn't. Customer base of "trad Jag" is either dead, dying or in a home chasing after matron. Seriously - you can sell an Old man a young man's car, but not the other way round. When has being grey, old and infirm been aspirational? Back to the modern Jaguar ride quality - compromise (trade off between body control and ride) is BIC -absolutely spot on. Over the same piece of scarred b-road just try a modern Audi or even <shudders> a BMW on runflats....
Edited by FWDRacer on Monday 30th January 14:47
On the other hand if you have a car that'll generate an extra 0.05g of lateral grip then the comfortable one you might take advantage of that maybe once or twice every journey. In exchange for an occasional extra bit of grip you'll have to put up with highly vunerable to damage wheels, eye watering bills for tyre replacement constant aggravation with alignment problems, increased suspension component wear and a nervous jiggly ride coupled with horrendous tyre noise.
Horses for courses of course - but I'll go with Wafting in comfort and silence every time. You only have to drive an old XJ in good condition - or a Citroen C3 Picasso - to realise what's been sacrificed in the quest for sporty handling and stylish wheels.
So when every car has spray-on tyres, carbon fibre dashboard and corners on rails to please aspirational 21y/o mobile phone salesmen, what choice is there?
Bentley I suppose!
The 'old man' soundbyte is a silly thing trotted out by yoofs and marketing men. It's about quality, prestige, style, class and not having to prove anything because you've achieved your goals. And not wanting grey plastic bits.
ETA And you also have enough money to buy something faster for the weekends
Bentley I suppose!
The 'old man' soundbyte is a silly thing trotted out by yoofs and marketing men. It's about quality, prestige, style, class and not having to prove anything because you've achieved your goals. And not wanting grey plastic bits.
ETA And you also have enough money to buy something faster for the weekends
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 30th January 19:37
Simpo Two said:
The 'old man' soundbyte is a silly thing trotted out by yoofs and marketing men. It's about quality, prestige, style, class and not having to prove anything because you've achieved your goals.
What a load of trite garbage. If you don't have anything to prove you run around in a knackered looking late 90's volvo estate or a focus. Money shouts, wealth whispers etc.The simple fact of life is that Jaguar's traditional customer base is knocking on. Move with the times or get left behind. The XF/XK/XJ are now forward looking products - Callum needs applauding for his bravery. The ride quality compromise is a a direct consequence of market forces. Give the public what they want or they'll take their money elsewhere. I don't want to see Jaguar wound up becuase it sold a handful of cars with a very limited spectrum of appeal? Do you?
Simpo Two said:
And not wanting grey plastic bits.
I agree with you on this bit - but add that chrome looks great on ashtrays. Wood looks great in forests. Not on cars. Thankfully Jaguar now has alternative finishes and delete option button next to Burr Walnut 
Never mind Mr Racer, one day you will see things from a different perspective. At the least, when you are 50+ and still wanting carbon fibre and ally, they will say 'Tough luck granddad'!
Is nobody allowed to have different opinions from you? I like veneer, so tough titties.
Is nobody allowed to have different opinions from you? I like veneer, so tough titties.
Edited by Simpo Two on Tuesday 31st January 17:02
I was 34 when I bought my X300, so not exactly old.
But even back then I tried an XJR and found the ride harsher than I wanted, and chose a Sport instead since it had the ride handling compromise I wanted.
I think that too many people believe they want what they are told they want.
Why would anyone buy a car which is uncomforable? Personally I don't understand why but lots of people do.
I'd blame it car journalist, who are probably the people telling everyone what they should want, but even this isn't always true. Occasionally Jeremy Clarkson has been his blunt self and been rude about the ride in particular cars. His comments about the original BMW X3 were damning to say the least (but then he also commented that Douglas Bader would complain about the leg room in the back of the X300) yet still droves of people buy them (I live in the Bracknell area to BMWs are two a penny around here).
The simple fact is that there is no choice. If you like ride comfort there is no new car (that I'm aware of) that gives it at low speed. I've not tried the new XJ yet, but while the X350/X358 aren't perfect at low speeds, at cruising speed I found the ride at times defied belief. Driving one form San Francisco to Sacramento I was really impressed, you could see how rough the concrete pavement was but you couldn't feel any of it. On the other hand I preferred the steering response of my X300 and found it rides better under other circumstances.
But even back then I tried an XJR and found the ride harsher than I wanted, and chose a Sport instead since it had the ride handling compromise I wanted.
I think that too many people believe they want what they are told they want.
Why would anyone buy a car which is uncomforable? Personally I don't understand why but lots of people do.
I'd blame it car journalist, who are probably the people telling everyone what they should want, but even this isn't always true. Occasionally Jeremy Clarkson has been his blunt self and been rude about the ride in particular cars. His comments about the original BMW X3 were damning to say the least (but then he also commented that Douglas Bader would complain about the leg room in the back of the X300) yet still droves of people buy them (I live in the Bracknell area to BMWs are two a penny around here).
The simple fact is that there is no choice. If you like ride comfort there is no new car (that I'm aware of) that gives it at low speed. I've not tried the new XJ yet, but while the X350/X358 aren't perfect at low speeds, at cruising speed I found the ride at times defied belief. Driving one form San Francisco to Sacramento I was really impressed, you could see how rough the concrete pavement was but you couldn't feel any of it. On the other hand I preferred the steering response of my X300 and found it rides better under other circumstances.
Simpo Two said:
Never mind Mr Racer, one day you will see things from a different perspective. At the least, when you are 50+ and still wanting carbon fibre and ally, they will say 'Tough luck granddad'!
... and on 'that' day I'll be happy driving around in my knackered Volvo cheers . Pity you can't appreciate an alternative perspective despite those years of ahem, experience.Simpo Two said:
Is nobody allowed to have different opinions from you? I like veneer, so tough titties.
Choice is all important - but not everyone wants Wood - I appreciate why you enjoy seeing it at your age. Congratulations on missing the salient points of my post. I'm 36 and the next XF arrives next Wednesday. Keep the appeal limited and the company will go under-Jaguar volumes are tiny in comparison with BMW/Audi. The brand needs to be if it is to survive/flourish-wider appeal drives volume. It won't happen by perenially restyling X308 and giving magic carpet ride in all of its models. Market doesn't want that (for now). Very straightforward. I want to be enjoying Jaguar's well into the future (and that includes my 50's )I don't see it as an age related thing (I’m not old) - more down to fashion.
Currently, fashionable wheels are all so big they make the car look like a cartoon, wear tyres whose aspect ratio borders on the imaginary, super hard springs and cheap, grim spray painted interior plastics are all the rage.
Once maximum smoothness was pursued even if it involved door mirror scraping body roll, coupled with a dash styled on a quality sideboard with dials stuck on it.
At some point the circle will turn. 'Perceived high quality index materials' won’t look too clever when the paint wears off, and then today's modern interior will look as cheap and nasty as an Argos clock radio. At that point old men will still be talking about track days and ultimate grip on some long gone corner at the Nuremburg ring whilst the thrusting young fogey on his way up will have gone back to hedonistic comfort with wood, leather and balloon tyres...
Jaguar has to offer what the market wants. Unfortunately I really don't like boneshakers with miserable coalmine dark interiors, but what I want doesn't matter.
The majority of buyers don't agree with me and if Jaguar doesn't serve their tastes then Jaguar will end up like Rover. I am glad they have learned that – it took them long enough!
I just wish they did a 'comfort pack' with springs and stuff and a decent bit of hand polished walnut. And none of this veneer on substrate either!! Oh, and why can't cars be sleek?
Currently, fashionable wheels are all so big they make the car look like a cartoon, wear tyres whose aspect ratio borders on the imaginary, super hard springs and cheap, grim spray painted interior plastics are all the rage.
Once maximum smoothness was pursued even if it involved door mirror scraping body roll, coupled with a dash styled on a quality sideboard with dials stuck on it.
At some point the circle will turn. 'Perceived high quality index materials' won’t look too clever when the paint wears off, and then today's modern interior will look as cheap and nasty as an Argos clock radio. At that point old men will still be talking about track days and ultimate grip on some long gone corner at the Nuremburg ring whilst the thrusting young fogey on his way up will have gone back to hedonistic comfort with wood, leather and balloon tyres...
Jaguar has to offer what the market wants. Unfortunately I really don't like boneshakers with miserable coalmine dark interiors, but what I want doesn't matter.
The majority of buyers don't agree with me and if Jaguar doesn't serve their tastes then Jaguar will end up like Rover. I am glad they have learned that – it took them long enough!
I just wish they did a 'comfort pack' with springs and stuff and a decent bit of hand polished walnut. And none of this veneer on substrate either!! Oh, and why can't cars be sleek?
It's a shame that all rival companies copy styling cues from each other until all brand heritage/individuality is lost. Sticking a leaper on the back (which looks patently wrong) is insufficient, especially as otherwise the XF looks like a Mondeo. There should be more to car design than churning out another 'shoe' and putting a badge on it. What is it that attracts people to the Jaguar brand if they don't like any of the features that gave the brand the status it enjoys?
So when Racer is wealthy and retired he will sell the car he claims to love and buy a 'knackered Volvo' instead... his choice of course but I prefer a progression the other way - upwards.
But I can guarantee one thing - when people are 50 they will not want what the 20-somethings want, neither (I hope) will they wear their fashions!
So when Racer is wealthy and retired he will sell the car he claims to love and buy a 'knackered Volvo' instead... his choice of course but I prefer a progression the other way - upwards.
But I can guarantee one thing - when people are 50 they will not want what the 20-somethings want, neither (I hope) will they wear their fashions!
Simpo Two said:
It's a shame that all rival companies copy styling cues from each other until all brand heritage/individuality is lost. Sticking a leaper on the back (which looks patently wrong) is insufficient, especially as otherwise the XF looks like a Mondeo. There should be more to car design than churning out another 'shoe' and putting a badge on it. What is it that attracts people to the Jaguar brand if they don't like any of the features that gave the brand the status it enjoys?
So when Racer is wealthy and retired he will sell the car he claims to love and buy a 'knackered Volvo' instead... his choice of course but I prefer a progression the other way - upwards.
But I can guarantee one thing - when people are 50 they will not want what the 20-somethings want, neither (I hope) will they wear their fashions!
I'm sorry, I don't agree.So when Racer is wealthy and retired he will sell the car he claims to love and buy a 'knackered Volvo' instead... his choice of course but I prefer a progression the other way - upwards.
But I can guarantee one thing - when people are 50 they will not want what the 20-somethings want, neither (I hope) will they wear their fashions!
Autocar recently mentioned that the average buying age for Jaguar customers has barely moved, the difference is simply that Jaguar are selling more cars.
It seems to me that if Jaguar hadn't moderised with the XK, XF and new XJ they most likely would not be here. You may personally prefer the older ones (and I can't blame you, the classics and newer all the way to the X300, X308, and X350 to a lesser degree are lovely looking cars) but do you think Jaguar would still be here if they hadn't replaced the S type and X358 XJ? They were great cars, but they just weren't selling.
I know what you mean in a way though, when I drove my old XJR I used to feel like I really was driving a luxury car. It felt special, ministerial (is that a word?) where as my XF just looks like a modern car. I think it looks far better than just about any other modern saloon but I have to agree, a non car person would just think it is a non descript saloon.
The thing is, and I don't know how they've done it, but from the drivers seat, even though they've gone all modern they have managed to keep a unique identity, which I don't think the Germans are managing. You may write it all off as gimmicks and silly aluminum look plastic but IMO the XF feels a far better car than the old XJ from the drivers seat. The theatrics of the starter, the rotating vents, I've no idea why, but it does feel special to be in. Am I just brainwashed by the marketing? Quite possible!
And, regarding the ride & handling. The ride is firm. Much firmer than my old X350 at slow speed but from anything 30mph upwards, it is still class best. IIRC Vicky Parrot wrote a paragraph at the end of a XF DS vs 535D vs A6 3.0TDI vs E350CDI, which the XF won inspite of being the slowest, smallest, thirstiest and emitting the most CO2. Her final paragraph was along the lines of:
"For those of a mind to read these pages, the XF is still the one to choose, as it is still the best to drive. It not only manages to be comfortable executive transport, and a sports saloon, it blurs the distinction between the two. You are always aware you're driving something.... (in summary, brilliant.)"
I know I'm not helping the ride argument by the sports saloon comment, but IMO Jaguar pulled an incredible feat with their new models. They managed to produce cars which were modern, and running away with group tests and resulted in record profits for JLR, but still manage to produce something which IMO just feels different. It might not be what you're looking for in a day to day wafter, but do you think Jaguar did the right thing?
I think where Jaguar failed was to spread the range from small through medium to prestige (as rivals did). I agree you're unlikely to survive in only one sector and clearly as things were, just making an XJ6 style car wasn't sufficient. I thought the X and S types were a good move to get into the mid-sector, and you see plenty about, but they seem to have been an evolutionary dead end. The XF may be great to drive and if I was a sales manager I'm sure I'd be pleased to get one, but my choice is infinite and it's not on the radar.
By all means have a baby Jaguar for the surburban mum, and a mid-range repmobile with plastic drinks holders and blue LEDs if you need the turnover, but it would be nice if there was still a top end that reflected Jaguar heritage and was instantly identifiable as a Jaguar by its shape, rather than hunting for the badge. We may have space and pace, but where did grace go? The leaping cat should be more than a 4" plastic badge on an otherwise indeterminate boot.
Back to the plot. Yes, 'waft'. Waft is about not being able to feel the road surface and not being able to hear the engine. Waft is about flooring it and watching the horizon get closer while the little cars go backwards. Waft is about peace and effortlessness. Waft is about being in a better league.
By all means have a baby Jaguar for the surburban mum, and a mid-range repmobile with plastic drinks holders and blue LEDs if you need the turnover, but it would be nice if there was still a top end that reflected Jaguar heritage and was instantly identifiable as a Jaguar by its shape, rather than hunting for the badge. We may have space and pace, but where did grace go? The leaping cat should be more than a 4" plastic badge on an otherwise indeterminate boot.
Back to the plot. Yes, 'waft'. Waft is about not being able to feel the road surface and not being able to hear the engine. Waft is about flooring it and watching the horizon get closer while the little cars go backwards. Waft is about peace and effortlessness. Waft is about being in a better league.
pete5570 said:
For a car that needs to appeal to a huge audience and compete against growing competition, i think Jaguar got it spot on with the XF range. It's not a replacement for the XJ, it's a mid range exec to be fair.
Spot on.I know all about 'waft' having a Silver Shadow and Bentley S3. I also have an x-type AWD with sport premium spec. It does not waft, but boy does it go around corners. The Jag is as different to the Crewe products as chalk is to cheese and if the XF is similar, I think it will appeal to the rep driver and get the large turnover that JLR need, but I echo the points raised above. The car is not 'special' in any way and whilst it is competent, i do not 'love' it as I do my RR and Bentley. I think I would love a X350 or X308 clad in trad. wood / leather and chrome, but to me (at 43) to love a car it needs to waft and make you feel like the Emperor of the World, rather than an estate agent. A pal has the new XJ and says it's like comparing a modern Naval warship to HMS Victory, efficient but not lovely.
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