Discussion
Don't want to open recently closed wounds from the F-type thread but if anyone's interested this week's 5th gear ran a "manual v PDK auto" test using otherwise identical Porsche Caymans.
All pretty close but the auto won the drag race, the manual won the lap time.
Mr. Plato (of PH fame) chose the manual!
(no strong opinion personally)
All pretty close but the auto won the drag race, the manual won the lap time.
Mr. Plato (of PH fame) chose the manual!
(no strong opinion personally)
Northbloke said:
Don't want to open recently closed wounds from the F-type thread but if anyone's interested this week's 5th gear ran a "manual v PDK auto" test using otherwise identical Porsche Caymans.
All pretty close but the auto won the drag race, the manual won the lap time.
Mr. Plato (of PH fame) chose the manual!
(no strong opinion personally)
Your point being what?All pretty close but the auto won the drag race, the manual won the lap time.
Mr. Plato (of PH fame) chose the manual!
(no strong opinion personally)
A PDK is not an auto trans as in the F-Type; it is an electro-mechanically or electro-hydraulically shifted manual gearbox. Choosing a PDK is not analogous to choosing a torque converter equipped auto trans as in the F-Type.
The F-Type trans is like the old Tiptronic autos in Porsches (albeit more gears and much improved); not remotely like a Porsche PDK.
Northbloke said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Your point being what?
Err...I saw a debate about this on here and therefore thought it may be of interest to some to watch a TV programme related to that debate.Obviously not you then.
mph said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
It is of interest actually, but my point is that PDK vs stick is still manual vs manual, it is not the same debate of auto vs manual for the F-Type.
So can't the PDK change gear automatically then ?mph said:
DB9VolanteDriver said:
It is of interest actually, but my point is that PDK vs stick is still manual vs manual, it is not the same debate of auto vs manual for the F-Type.
So can't the PDK change gear automatically then ?The F-Type is a true auto trans, while the Cayman in the OP is a manual trans, so it is no surprise that Plato would like it.
XJ Flyer said:
Still with lots of pointless expensive to buy and maintain,added complication,to be passed on to buyers in the used market,who don't want it if they've got any sense and aren't disabled from being able to use both arms and legs.
I don't know what your experience with modern Jaguars is, but as a driver of a 2012 XK and as someone who has driven an F type, my impression is that the automatics Jaguar make these days are not the automatics of old that you prefer not to own.Because of the very reason that Jaguar does such a great job selecting their gear ratios, converter K factors and calibrating the system, the majority of their customers and potential customers are perfectly happy with the automatic.
Clearly a few people would prefer a manual transmission, I'm not sure that the engineering cost could be low enough to make it any cheaper than the automatic for the volumes they would sell.
As somebody who has actually engineered manual and automatic transmissions and drivelines to an OEM standard I think the public at large does not understand the sheer magnitude of the work involved to get a product from promising to comparable with the very best that the best of the OEMs can offer - high standards mean lots of work and hence lots of costs.
GavinPearson said:
XJ Flyer said:
Still with lots of pointless expensive to buy and maintain,added complication,to be passed on to buyers in the used market,who don't want it if they've got any sense and aren't disabled from being able to use both arms and legs.
I don't know what your experience with modern Jaguars is, but as a driver of a 2012 XK and as someone who has driven an F type, my impression is that the automatics Jaguar make these days are not the automatics of old that you prefer not to own.Because of the very reason that Jaguar does such a great job selecting their gear ratios, converter K factors and calibrating the system, the majority of their customers and potential customers are perfectly happy with the automatic.
Clearly a few people would prefer a manual transmission, I'm not sure that the engineering cost could be low enough to make it any cheaper than the automatic for the volumes they would sell.
As somebody who has actually engineered manual and automatic transmissions and drivelines to an OEM standard I think the public at large does not understand the sheer magnitude of the work involved to get a product from promising to comparable with the very best that the best of the OEMs can offer - high standards mean lots of work and hence lots of costs.
In the case of Jaguars it's the totally different comparison of torque converter auto v mechanical transmission in either automated or manual form.
It's my bet in the years to come it's the proper manual Aston that will be remembered as the real classic sports coupe between it and either it's later automated manual replacement let alone the F type and it's closer in every way to the true succsessor to the E type.Probably with a classic value to prove it in the long term.In just the same way that any manual Jaguar has ( rightly ) always been considered more valuable than it's auto counterpart,wether standard fit or after market conversion,over the years regardless of the development rate of auto boxes.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 13th December 02:18
XJ Flyer said:
Firstly my comments there were directed at the comparison of automated manual v just ordinary manual in which case it's just lots of extra complication and future maintenance issues just to get the similar result of an all mechanical transmission.
In the case of Jaguars it's the totally different comparison of torque converter auto v mechanical transmission in either automated or manual form.
It's my bet in the years to come it's the proper manual Aston that will be remembered as the real classic sports coupe between it and either it's later automated manual replacement let alone the F type and it's closer in every way to the true succsessor to the E type.Probably with a classic value to prove it in the long term.In just the same way that any manual Jaguar has ( rightly ) always been considered more valuable than it's auto counterpart,wether standard fit or after market conversion,over the years regardless of the development rate of auto boxes.
For the expert driver, a standard manual transmission can get very good fuel economy and with far less complexity or cost than an automated manual or dual clutch transmission (e.g. Porsche PDK).In the case of Jaguars it's the totally different comparison of torque converter auto v mechanical transmission in either automated or manual form.
It's my bet in the years to come it's the proper manual Aston that will be remembered as the real classic sports coupe between it and either it's later automated manual replacement let alone the F type and it's closer in every way to the true succsessor to the E type.Probably with a classic value to prove it in the long term.In just the same way that any manual Jaguar has ( rightly ) always been considered more valuable than it's auto counterpart,wether standard fit or after market conversion,over the years regardless of the development rate of auto boxes.
And I am sure that you are correct that the manual Astons will be remembered the way you describe.
But we also need to bear in mind that Jaguar have to meet some pretty serious legislation in the markets they sell to. Fuel economy has to be taken seriously to avoid financial penalties and so that favours automated systems (whether dual clutch, full automatic with torque converter, CVT or some other automated system), where even the inexperienced can get good results.
The same legislation in general is driving manufacturers to fit downsized and boosted engines.
Unfortunately there is little you or I can do about this - it's just the way it is.
XJ Flyer said:
In just the same way that any manual Jaguar has ( rightly ) always been considered more valuable than it's auto counterpart,wether standard fit or after market conversion,over the years regardless of the development rate of auto boxes.
Well this depends on the phase in the life cycle.The last XJ to have a manual box was the X300. The dealers used to hate them, when they ended up with a secondhand one they were impossible to shift and needed to be sold at a much lower price than the autos.
It has only been in the last few years that people have started to show much interest in manual X300s.
But this is outside the part of the life of the part which has a direct financial impact on Jaguar as a car manufacture. Its outside the period where the cars will ever visit a main dealer.
For an XJ, I really can't see the point of manual. For modern XK, I'd buy an auto too. But to me a manual XJ would make as much sense as having an auto box in my XK150.
a8hex said:
XJ Flyer said:
In just the same way that any manual Jaguar has ( rightly ) always been considered more valuable than it's auto counterpart,wether standard fit or after market conversion,over the years regardless of the development rate of auto boxes.
Well this depends on the phase in the life cycle.The last XJ to have a manual box was the X300. The dealers used to hate them, when they ended up with a secondhand one they were impossible to shift and needed to be sold at a much lower price than the autos.
It has only been in the last few years that people have started to show much interest in manual X300s.
But this is outside the part of the life of the part which has a direct financial impact on Jaguar as a car manufacture. Its outside the period where the cars will ever visit a main dealer.
For an XJ, I really can't see the point of manual. For modern XK, I'd buy an auto too. But to me a manual XJ would make as much sense as having an auto box in my XK150.
But as you correctly say, there wasn't exactly a booming market for a 3 year old XJ6 with manual transmission.
The people Jaguar need to cater for are the ones taking delivery of new cars and potentially people who have purchased new cars from competitors. The automotive world is filled with examples of manufacturers listening to 'potential customers' who turned out to be a little more fickle when it came to signing a cheque than their bravado suggested when the market researcher asked them several years before.
GavinPearson said:
Give it another 20 years and an X300 manual will be worth more than the auto counterpart.
Why that in your view?Rarity? Reliability?
Does not seem to be driven by wthdrawal syndrome of people looking for manual gearbox or increase in request of manual gearbox or Jason Plato wanting a Jaguar or fuel savings
Edited by Riccardino on Friday 13th December 12:42
Riccardino said:
GavinPearson said:
Give it another 20 years and an X300 manual will be worth more than the auto counterpart.
Why that in your view?Rarity? Reliability?
Does not seem to be driven by wthdrawal syndrome of people looking for manual gearbox or increase in request of manual gearbox or Jason Plato wanting a Jaguar or fuel savings
Edited by Riccardino on Friday 13th December 12:42
My other "car" (rather than Lady B8's car) is a 55 year old XK150. I bought her for the feel of driving a 50year old car, I like the way that cross ply tyres hunt around the road so you have to keep your wits about you. I preferred the Moss gearbox to the really easy and efficient modern 5 speed unit it has now, because it was an "event" to use, you need to keep your wits about you. But the XK150 is a toy, a play thing for me, its not a "car" its not my main way of getting around on a daily basis.
So going back to the X300 example what is exactly driving the fact that the manual will be worth a premium?
Still not really convinced that a lot of people with now start to buy the X300 as a "toy" car and thus they prefer a manual. HAving said that if it is going to be worth a premium then there should be more request and then rarity vs an auto will play a role
Still not really convinced that a lot of people with now start to buy the X300 as a "toy" car and thus they prefer a manual. HAving said that if it is going to be worth a premium then there should be more request and then rarity vs an auto will play a role
GavinPearson said:
a8hex said:
XJ Flyer said:
In just the same way that any manual Jaguar has ( rightly ) always been considered more valuable than it's auto counterpart,wether standard fit or after market conversion,over the years regardless of the development rate of auto boxes.
Well this depends on the phase in the life cycle.The last XJ to have a manual box was the X300. The dealers used to hate them, when they ended up with a secondhand one they were impossible to shift and needed to be sold at a much lower price than the autos.
It has only been in the last few years that people have started to show much interest in manual X300s.
But this is outside the part of the life of the part which has a direct financial impact on Jaguar as a car manufacture. Its outside the period where the cars will ever visit a main dealer.
For an XJ, I really can't see the point of manual. For modern XK, I'd buy an auto too. But to me a manual XJ would make as much sense as having an auto box in my XK150.
But as you correctly say, there wasn't exactly a booming market for a 3 year old XJ6 with manual transmission.
The people Jaguar need to cater for are the ones taking delivery of new cars and potentially people who have purchased new cars from competitors. The automotive world is filled with examples of manufacturers listening to 'potential customers' who turned out to be a little more fickle when it came to signing a cheque than their bravado suggested when the market researcher asked them several years before.
My point is that things look a lot different in the case of combining a manual box with the 'right' engine.In the case of the XJ up to X300 that would have been the XJR being available in both V12 and the 4 litre supercharged 6 cylinder form.While the existing manual XJR supercharged 4 litre models seem to show a good premium over any of the other X300 models.
In this case the relevant comparison would be either the manual option 6 litre XJRS factory built options ( very few if any made because of all the typical auto v manual prejudices of buyers ) or aftermarket conversions of the V12 XJ or XJS,as opposed to the auto versions.In which case the usual argument made by the pro auto lot is that the values are higher because of rarity when the fact is the values are higher simply because a manual option on those cars is ( much ) better.With better in that case not just being the advantage in performance but also,as now,the driver involvement advantages.The conclusion being that Jaguar missed out on loads of sales,not to mention the credibility of it's V12 cars v the BMW M series competition,because of the no manual option issue.I think the same will probably turn out to be the case in the long term at least in the case of the V8 XFR and V8 F type.As for me I don't think that a new or used XFR would be an adequate replacement for my V12 6.0 litre engined series 3 XJ with 5 speed manual for the all round combination of performance and driving enjoyment even if I could afford it.
XJ Flyer said:
The problem with manual XJ's is that with the exception of the supercharged 4 litre engine the manuals are all compromised in relation to engine choice.
My point is that things look a lot different in the case of combining a manual box with the 'right' engine.In the case of the XJ up to X300 that would have been the XJR being available in both V12 and the 4 litre supercharged 6 cylinder form.While the existing manual XJR supercharged 4 litre models seem to show a good premium over any of the other X300 models.
As for me I don't think that a new or used XFR would be an adequate replacement for my V12 6.0 litre engined series 3 XJ with 5 speed manual for the all round combination of performance and driving enjoyment even if I could afford it.
Replacing any of the old three-speed autos with a five-speed manual will obviously give improvements in terms of both performance and economy. My point is that things look a lot different in the case of combining a manual box with the 'right' engine.In the case of the XJ up to X300 that would have been the XJR being available in both V12 and the 4 litre supercharged 6 cylinder form.While the existing manual XJR supercharged 4 litre models seem to show a good premium over any of the other X300 models.
As for me I don't think that a new or used XFR would be an adequate replacement for my V12 6.0 litre engined series 3 XJ with 5 speed manual for the all round combination of performance and driving enjoyment even if I could afford it.
Having said that, manual Jaguar saloons have never sold well, even when the option was offered. There would be even less demand for them now.
Auto gearbox design has moved on a lot since then and manual gearboxes don't have the same advantage they used to.
I'm sure your own car has much improved performance over it's original build but an XFR is simply in another league (as it should be)
I've owned a couple of S3 V12's and a later X300 ? I thought they were all fantastic things, so smooth and powerful, they must really shift with a manual box fitted.
Edited by mph on Friday 13th December 22:47
It would be interesting to look at the number of manual X300 XJRs that were sold compared with the number of auto XJRs that were sold. Your logic would suggest that the manual would have outsold the auto hand over fist, but I'd bet it was the other way around. The majority of people who want to buy a big engined saloon appear to put their money into autos.
Do MB do manual versions of theirs? Their production numbers are significantly higher so the cost of engineering a manual wouldn't be such an issue, but do they make one?
Have you driven the later super charged XKR?
Put your foot down in paddle shift mode and its hard to avoid hitting the rev limiter in the lower gears you need to change that quickly.
Do MB do manual versions of theirs? Their production numbers are significantly higher so the cost of engineering a manual wouldn't be such an issue, but do they make one?
Have you driven the later super charged XKR?
Put your foot down in paddle shift mode and its hard to avoid hitting the rev limiter in the lower gears you need to change that quickly.
Gassing Station | Jaguar | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff