Discussion
What system have you used ?Is it running on an after market ECU.
ChimpofDarkness is doing a serious Prins system with a bespoke smaller fuel tank and two LPG tanks.
He had a new loom made for a dual system and soon to run a Turbo charger on LPG.
His Camens ECU is setup to run both fuels with different advance settings and two seperate maps probably by a flick of a switch .
How are you getting on with yours and who fitted it..
tell me more ,im serous about running mine on LPG for cruising ..
ChimpofDarkness is doing a serious Prins system with a bespoke smaller fuel tank and two LPG tanks.
He had a new loom made for a dual system and soon to run a Turbo charger on LPG.
His Camens ECU is setup to run both fuels with different advance settings and two seperate maps probably by a flick of a switch .
How are you getting on with yours and who fitted it..
tell me more ,im serous about running mine on LPG for cruising ..
Edited by SILICONEKID340HP on Sunday 13th January 23:42
Measuring up:
Lets make some space:
Then fill it back up with LPG & some petrol too:
Control the whole thing with this:
Emmm, shiny
, but you'll never see it under the new matching boot carpet 
Keep it clean with a decent LPG filter:
Proven "Best in Class" LPG injectors
Likewise the vaporiser, quality counts
Then this will follow to give 300hp at the wheels with little or no loss of LPG (or petrol) fuel economy on light load cruise:
Wish me luck
Lets make some space:
Then fill it back up with LPG & some petrol too:
Control the whole thing with this:
Emmm, shiny
, but you'll never see it under the new matching boot carpet Keep it clean with a decent LPG filter:
Proven "Best in Class" LPG injectors
Likewise the vaporiser, quality counts
- Total dual fuel range 450 miles (300mls on LPG, 150mls petrol reserve)
- Roof in boot stowage unaffected
- Enough boot space remaining for two people to tour the continent for two weeks with roof off
- Additional weight 40kg
- Second matching TVR fuel gauge used for LPG level (replacing the clock)
- Switch back & forth between fuels at will on the move, completely undetectable on change over
- No loss of power
- Cost equivalent of 50mpg at 80-85mph cruise
Then this will follow to give 300hp at the wheels with little or no loss of LPG (or petrol) fuel economy on light load cruise:
Wish me luck
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Monday 14th January 01:28
pjac67 said:
Installed 2 months ago and working well:
65 litre tank in the boot:
45 mpg equivalent, upto 500 mile range. No loss of power. what's not to like....
Hi Paul, I ran a MG ZT 260 (the one with the mustang V8 in) which had been converted to run on LPG, and it certainly made it viable to run as an everyday car.65 litre tank in the boot:
45 mpg equivalent, upto 500 mile range. No loss of power. what's not to like....
I was always told that you can expect between a 5 and 10 per cent reduction in power running on LPG though, not that will make a lot of difference! What system did you fit? mine was a BRC, and seems very reliable, and where have you fitted he filler nozzle?
Thanks for the replies/interest.
I have had 5/6 LPG cars over the last few years but not an 8 cyl. so I did a lot of research (including viewing your comments on the Chimaera thread Dave/CoD) as I had certain requirements such as:
1. No loss of power (at the top end of the rev. range it seemlessly switches over to petrol....);
2. Smooth running throughout the rev range (only issue I have is pulling away from 10-20mph in too high a gear....);
3. Not to change the structure of the car (ie 'invisible' from the outside (filler is in the recess behind the number plate), keep existing fuel tank, no comptromise of fibreglass with filler);
4. With 3. to also have a system that could be transferred to another car easily (my history of changing cars isn't great for a system that will take 2 yrs to recoup costs (based on 5-6K milegae p.a.) - this has been acheived with minimal intrusion and the whole system can be removed within an hour and leave the car 'as original' - aside from a few (mostly out of sight) bolt wholes and the filler whole in the number plate recess...).
As with most/all LPG systems you can manually switch to petrol anyway which I do when needing small arms fire on the overrun... (LPG isn't quieter than petrol but because I have had the mapping set up for smoothness/driveability it does not pop and bang as much).
The secret to a successful set up is the skill of the installer/mapper (Dom is a LPG guru who has done lots of 'big stuff' including his V10 Kenworth and a 650hp drifter, works well on S/C cars too...);
http://www.freewebs.com/avonautogas/dream21neobd.h...
The system is an OMVL Dream 21n EOBD with its own clever ECU 'piggy backing' on my Emerald settings (2 settings changed by a flick switch on the dash - alongside the LPG switch/gauge).
As regards the roof, I chopped it in half (didn't want to shell out on a Surrey roof at this stage) after viewing another PH thread and it sits neatly on top of the LPG tank - you can still fit a decent size sports bag at either end of the boot and another 2 similar bags on top of the tank (or equivalent of 8 Tesco bags which is what happens more often...).
Those LPG doubters out there or those thinking of taking the plunge - (SILICONEKID 339.5HP) I would say do your homework and go for it.
Those who know me/have viewed my profile/car spec. will know it hasn't taken away any power/drivieability/handling/enjoyment - the higher the power of your car the better the mapping etc needs to be to not change the characteristics.
I will be putting it on the RR at Neil Garners open day on March 30th to check on the differences on a graph and report back.
I have had 5/6 LPG cars over the last few years but not an 8 cyl. so I did a lot of research (including viewing your comments on the Chimaera thread Dave/CoD) as I had certain requirements such as:
1. No loss of power (at the top end of the rev. range it seemlessly switches over to petrol....);
2. Smooth running throughout the rev range (only issue I have is pulling away from 10-20mph in too high a gear....);
3. Not to change the structure of the car (ie 'invisible' from the outside (filler is in the recess behind the number plate), keep existing fuel tank, no comptromise of fibreglass with filler);
4. With 3. to also have a system that could be transferred to another car easily (my history of changing cars isn't great for a system that will take 2 yrs to recoup costs (based on 5-6K milegae p.a.) - this has been acheived with minimal intrusion and the whole system can be removed within an hour and leave the car 'as original' - aside from a few (mostly out of sight) bolt wholes and the filler whole in the number plate recess...).
As with most/all LPG systems you can manually switch to petrol anyway which I do when needing small arms fire on the overrun... (LPG isn't quieter than petrol but because I have had the mapping set up for smoothness/driveability it does not pop and bang as much).
The secret to a successful set up is the skill of the installer/mapper (Dom is a LPG guru who has done lots of 'big stuff' including his V10 Kenworth and a 650hp drifter, works well on S/C cars too...);
http://www.freewebs.com/avonautogas/dream21neobd.h...
The system is an OMVL Dream 21n EOBD with its own clever ECU 'piggy backing' on my Emerald settings (2 settings changed by a flick switch on the dash - alongside the LPG switch/gauge).
As regards the roof, I chopped it in half (didn't want to shell out on a Surrey roof at this stage) after viewing another PH thread and it sits neatly on top of the LPG tank - you can still fit a decent size sports bag at either end of the boot and another 2 similar bags on top of the tank (or equivalent of 8 Tesco bags which is what happens more often...).
Those LPG doubters out there or those thinking of taking the plunge - (SILICONEKID 339.5HP) I would say do your homework and go for it.
Those who know me/have viewed my profile/car spec. will know it hasn't taken away any power/drivieability/handling/enjoyment - the higher the power of your car the better the mapping etc needs to be to not change the characteristics.
I will be putting it on the RR at Neil Garners open day on March 30th to check on the differences on a graph and report back.
pjac67 said:
Thanks for the replies/interest.
I have had 5/6 LPG cars over the last few years but not an 8 cyl. so I did a lot of research (including viewing your comments on the Chimaera thread Dave/CoD) as I had certain requirements such as:
1. No loss of power (at the top end of the rev. range it seemlessly switches over to petrol....);
2. Smooth running throughout the rev range (only issue I have is pulling away from 10-20mph in too high a gear....);
3. Not to change the structure of the car (ie 'invisible' from the outside (filler is in the recess behind the number plate), keep existing fuel tank, no comptromise of fibreglass with filler);
4. With 3. to also have a system that could be transferred to another car easily (my history of changing cars isn't great for a system that will take 2 yrs to recoup costs (based on 5-6K milegae p.a.) - this has been acheived with minimal intrusion and the whole system can be removed within an hour and leave the car 'as original' - aside from a few (mostly out of sight) bolt wholes and the filler whole in the number plate recess...).
As with most/all LPG systems you can manually switch to petrol anyway which I do when needing small arms fire on the overrun... (LPG isn't quieter than petrol but because I have had the mapping set up for smoothness/driveability it does not pop and bang as much).
The secret to a successful set up is the skill of the installer/mapper (Dom is a LPG guru who has done lots of 'big stuff' including his V10 Kenworth and a 650hp drifter, works well on S/C cars too...);
http://www.freewebs.com/avonautogas/dream21neobd.h...
The system is an OMVL Dream 21n EOBD with its own clever ECU 'piggy backing' on my Emerald settings (2 settings changed by a flick switch on the dash - alongside the LPG switch/gauge).
As regards the roof, I chopped it in half (didn't want to shell out on a Surrey roof at this stage) after viewing another PH thread and it sits neatly on top of the LPG tank - you can still fit a decent size sports bag at either end of the boot and another 2 similar bags on top of the tank (or equivalent of 8 Tesco bags which is what happens more often...).
Those LPG doubters out there or those thinking of taking the plunge - (SILICONEKID 339.5HP) I would say do your homework and go for it.
Those who know me/have viewed my profile/car spec. will know it hasn't taken away any power/drivieability/handling/enjoyment - the higher the power of your car the better the mapping etc needs to be to not change the characteristics.
I will be putting it on the RR at Neil Garners open day on March 30th to check on the differences on a graph and report back.
Great result Paul I have had 5/6 LPG cars over the last few years but not an 8 cyl. so I did a lot of research (including viewing your comments on the Chimaera thread Dave/CoD) as I had certain requirements such as:
1. No loss of power (at the top end of the rev. range it seemlessly switches over to petrol....);
2. Smooth running throughout the rev range (only issue I have is pulling away from 10-20mph in too high a gear....);
3. Not to change the structure of the car (ie 'invisible' from the outside (filler is in the recess behind the number plate), keep existing fuel tank, no comptromise of fibreglass with filler);
4. With 3. to also have a system that could be transferred to another car easily (my history of changing cars isn't great for a system that will take 2 yrs to recoup costs (based on 5-6K milegae p.a.) - this has been acheived with minimal intrusion and the whole system can be removed within an hour and leave the car 'as original' - aside from a few (mostly out of sight) bolt wholes and the filler whole in the number plate recess...).
As with most/all LPG systems you can manually switch to petrol anyway which I do when needing small arms fire on the overrun... (LPG isn't quieter than petrol but because I have had the mapping set up for smoothness/driveability it does not pop and bang as much).
The secret to a successful set up is the skill of the installer/mapper (Dom is a LPG guru who has done lots of 'big stuff' including his V10 Kenworth and a 650hp drifter, works well on S/C cars too...);
http://www.freewebs.com/avonautogas/dream21neobd.h...
The system is an OMVL Dream 21n EOBD with its own clever ECU 'piggy backing' on my Emerald settings (2 settings changed by a flick switch on the dash - alongside the LPG switch/gauge).
As regards the roof, I chopped it in half (didn't want to shell out on a Surrey roof at this stage) after viewing another PH thread and it sits neatly on top of the LPG tank - you can still fit a decent size sports bag at either end of the boot and another 2 similar bags on top of the tank (or equivalent of 8 Tesco bags which is what happens more often...).
Those LPG doubters out there or those thinking of taking the plunge - (SILICONEKID 339.5HP) I would say do your homework and go for it.
Those who know me/have viewed my profile/car spec. will know it hasn't taken away any power/drivieability/handling/enjoyment - the higher the power of your car the better the mapping etc needs to be to not change the characteristics.
I will be putting it on the RR at Neil Garners open day on March 30th to check on the differences on a graph and report back.
My conversion will take place in a few weeks from now, this gives me plenty of shake down & snagging time before I make my annual summer TVR powered pilgrimage to Italy & the South of France.
I'm looking forward to reducing my holiday fuel bills dramatically, early calculations indicate when I'm running on LPG my continental touring trips will compare very favourable with the cost of flying
You're results are very encouraging
If I'd already had an after market engine management system on my car I certainly would be doing the piggyback thing too.
But I was still on the Lucas fuel & antiquated ignition systems when I started looking at all this LPG game, it soon became clear to me that to make a decent conversion I would need to regain control of both fuel & the ignition.
Ditching the distributor was quite simply essential in my book.
So because I was starting with a complete change of engine management system as the foundation to my project, it made sense for me to select the new Canems Dual Fuel single ECU system; as amongst many other advantages it removes the need for a second ECU altogether.
The Canems system has transformed the car already just running on petrol, I suspect an Emerald or correctly built MegaSquirt would achieve similar results but it was the extremely professional installation offered by Lloyd Specialist Developments and the DF option that made my choice an easy one.
Rather that looking at the petrol map & making the assumption.... if the petrol injector duration & ignition timing is "X" then the LPG injector duration & ignition timing should be "Y", with the Canems Dual Fuel ECU you create a completely unique stand alone map for each fuel type.
The engine sensors used by the Canems DF system are the same on both fuels, but their signals are interpreted within the single ECU separately & directly on both petrol & LPG.
It's this "direct from the horse's mouth" information when running LPG that's another key advantage for what amounts to a unique solution in the world of LPG systems.
The Canems DF system has the unique ability to fire the petrol injectors on map one & the low impedance LPG injectors on map 2, it also offers LPG solenoid activation & other LPG specific features built in.
It's not a modified ECU, but one that's been designed from the outset to run the two fuels, the case & it's internals are all different from the petrol only Canems systems other contributors on PH are also using with great results.
It's tested & proven by Lloyd Specialist Developments who commissioned & developed it in conjunction with the manufacturer Canems, so I'm not the guinea pig (which is reassuring).
This system allows a precise & specific LPG map to be built based on the unique requirements of LPG, rather than what is fundamentally a manipulation of what performs best on petrol.
At this stage I can't say one system is better than the other, but in theory the Canems DF has some clear advantages over a piggyback ECU & has the potential to deliver best in class LPG performance.
I strongly suspect the end result will be very much dependent on the skills of my installer/mapper, which is why (like you say) choosing the right installer is critical.
The decision on who would install the conversion was quickly refined to two well respected companies.
1) Lloyd Specialist Developments
http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/
2) Quest Motor Sport
http://questmotorsport.co.uk/
I agonised over this for some time, both have excellent reputations, LSD have unparalleled Canems experience, run their own development Chimaera & have excellent knowledge of LPG too.
QMS have literally hundreds of successful LPG conversions under their belt, many of them on big HP V8 & forced induction applications.
Both companies are renowned fabricators/problem solvers on all things weird & wonderful in the world of motor sport, street modifications & our old friend the Rover V8.
Both embrace my TVR on LPG project with genuine passion & enthusiasm which I believe will prove critical to the ultimate success of the conversion.
In the end I went with Keith Woods from Quest Motor Sport, but TBH it was a really close thing, I have no doubt LSD would have made a fantastic job of it as they did with my initial engine management change.
The decisioned to use QMS was swung by them being slightly closer to me, their use of the well respected Prins LPG components, their on-site rolling road facilities, and finally a recommendation from a certain twin turbo Chimaera owner who has nothing but good things to say about Keith at QMS and the work he's completed on his ground breaking TVR.
Personally I like your idea of waking up the petrol injectors when running on LPG at high load/WOT, however both LSD & QMS say I absolutely will not need this feature with the correct LPG injectors, vaporiser & the Canems DF system controlling it all.
Keith at QMS also advised the components he specified in his quote will not need uprating when we fit the turbo kit, which surprised me TBH, but does ultimately mean the car can evolve for less outlay.
I'm looking forward to your rolling road results Paul
.I know an LPG TVR is not everyone's cup of petrol, and there are a lot of doubters out there just waiting for us to fail.
But from my way of thinking you should be congratulated on making one of these great cars more usable without spoiling their unique personality & character.
Nice one Paul
Dave.
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Monday 14th January 15:25
Thanks Dave - good luck in your conversion.
It sounds like you have all the boxes ticked and should there be any issues you have a good team around you.
FYI I pay between 64.5p and 69.9 for LPG and worked on 85-90% comparable economy, hence my £1400 total conversion cost would payback in about 10k miles.
More importantly it gives you more excuses to jump in the car (for trips > a couple of miles...) as this is now my 'Ecocar' and is more frugal than my LPG (2.4 petrol) Previa.
It sounds like you have all the boxes ticked and should there be any issues you have a good team around you.
FYI I pay between 64.5p and 69.9 for LPG and worked on 85-90% comparable economy, hence my £1400 total conversion cost would payback in about 10k miles.
More importantly it gives you more excuses to jump in the car (for trips > a couple of miles...) as this is now my 'Ecocar' and is more frugal than my LPG (2.4 petrol) Previa.
pjac67 said:
Thanks Dave - good luck in your conversion.
It sounds like you have all the boxes ticked and should there be any issues you have a good team around you.
FYI I pay between 64.5p and 69.9 for LPG and worked on 85-90% comparable economy, hence my £1400 total conversion cost would payback in about 10k miles.
More importantly it gives you more excuses to jump in the car (for trips > a couple of miles...) as this is now my 'Ecocar' and is more frugal than my LPG (2.4 petrol) Previa.
Brilliant stuff It sounds like you have all the boxes ticked and should there be any issues you have a good team around you.
FYI I pay between 64.5p and 69.9 for LPG and worked on 85-90% comparable economy, hence my £1400 total conversion cost would payback in about 10k miles.
More importantly it gives you more excuses to jump in the car (for trips > a couple of miles...) as this is now my 'Ecocar' and is more frugal than my LPG (2.4 petrol) Previa.
Now here's a thing
I took my Toyota Prius to Liverpool & back last week, yes folks I run a Prius as a company car
(Actually it's way better as an everyday hack than Jeremy Clarkson will have you believe)
I covered over 400 miles and did the brim to brim fuel economy calculations to reveal the truth behind my milk float, that as we all know trades itself on it's world class environmental performance.& fuel economy.
Well the odometer checked out well against my sat nav as normal (not the speedo though), & the brim to brim test confirmed the fuel computer was spot on too.
So what does this eco warrior washing machine do to the gallon?
- 50.12mpg at a steady 80mph
- 45.4mpg overall
Cake... we're having it & eating too mate
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Monday 14th January 15:50
Sounds interesting. I'm too obsessed with it being original to go down that route but you can solve the roof-in-the-boot problem with a fabric Surrey-roof from Roger.
Teetertank has a similar tank to you ,he removed the boot strut ,the top just slots in . Do you have a big enough gap to fit the top between the petrol tank and LPG tank.
Will my Megasquirt be able to handle the LPG system or will i need a piggy back ECU. Does the piggy back control the wasted spark and fuelby making quick calculations
Top just slips between ,should there be a cage around it ?
Will my Megasquirt be able to handle the LPG system or will i need a piggy back ECU. Does the piggy back control the wasted spark and fuelby making quick calculations
Top just slips between ,should there be a cage around it ?
Edited by SILICONEKID340HP on Monday 14th January 19:00
Hi Daz - my top is now split so sits on top.
Thanks for the PM:
My system was a drive in drive out installation (although the mapping was adjusted a couple of times to get it just right). The system I use provides its own clever ECU even though I'm sure my Emerald could have been mapped accordingly - (my Emerald has 2 maps on petrol) alot depends on the skill of the mapper and the resources available.
I also wanted the LPG system to be a removable stand alone piece of kit as well so 'piggy backing' off the Emerald with the skills of the LPG mapping/tweaking worked for me.
Thanks for the PM:
My system was a drive in drive out installation (although the mapping was adjusted a couple of times to get it just right). The system I use provides its own clever ECU even though I'm sure my Emerald could have been mapped accordingly - (my Emerald has 2 maps on petrol) alot depends on the skill of the mapper and the resources available.
I also wanted the LPG system to be a removable stand alone piece of kit as well so 'piggy backing' off the Emerald with the skills of the LPG mapping/tweaking worked for me.
pjac67 said:
Hi Daz - my top is now split so sits on top.
Thanks for the PM:
My system was a drive in drive out installation (although the mapping was adjusted a couple of times to get it just right). The system I use provides its own clever ECU even though I'm sure my Emerald could have been mapped accordingly - (my Emerald has 2 maps on petrol) alot depends on the skill of the mapper and the resources available.
I also wanted the LPG system to be a removable stand alone piece of kit as well so 'piggy backing' off the Emerald with the skills of the LPG mapping/tweaking worked for me.
Who did it for you ? i might go down the same route ,did they do a tidy safe job of running the lpg pipes .noticed they have wrapped areas in the engine bay ,think i will buy the correct size industrial heat sleeving . Im getting blody excited ..I have somthing else up my sleeve Thanks for the PM:
My system was a drive in drive out installation (although the mapping was adjusted a couple of times to get it just right). The system I use provides its own clever ECU even though I'm sure my Emerald could have been mapped accordingly - (my Emerald has 2 maps on petrol) alot depends on the skill of the mapper and the resources available.
I also wanted the LPG system to be a removable stand alone piece of kit as well so 'piggy backing' off the Emerald with the skills of the LPG mapping/tweaking worked for me.
being a Plumber .Do they have a rolling road ..This is the system on AvonAutogas's website - as I have said v.skillful at setting up/tuning but no RR:
http://www.freewebs.com/avonautogas/dream21neobd.h...
LPG tanks are safer than petrol and do not need a protective frame.
The new/recent regs. stipulative withstanding of certain G (25G IIRC?) forces of the tank being bolted to the car (ie chassis in the case of our fibrglass cars) and our chassis stops under our petrol tank. As I did not wish to compromise the petrol tank my cylinder sits on a foam be with a load spreading bar bolted to the underside and attached/secured with straps - this technically means a Certificate can't be issued which my insurers (through Henderson Taylor) are more than happy with.
The installation challenge with our cars is the space and the heat and I also wanted no visible signs other than discreet/neat in the engine bay - to say I am pleased is an understatement.
This picture better shows the ECU position far left/top (next to HID unit and overheat buzzer controls):
http://www.freewebs.com/avonautogas/dream21neobd.h...
LPG tanks are safer than petrol and do not need a protective frame.
The new/recent regs. stipulative withstanding of certain G (25G IIRC?) forces of the tank being bolted to the car (ie chassis in the case of our fibrglass cars) and our chassis stops under our petrol tank. As I did not wish to compromise the petrol tank my cylinder sits on a foam be with a load spreading bar bolted to the underside and attached/secured with straps - this technically means a Certificate can't be issued which my insurers (through Henderson Taylor) are more than happy with.
The installation challenge with our cars is the space and the heat and I also wanted no visible signs other than discreet/neat in the engine bay - to say I am pleased is an understatement.
This picture better shows the ECU position far left/top (next to HID unit and overheat buzzer controls):
Edited by pjac67 on Monday 14th January 23:15
Whats the pipe on the far side ? I wonder if that could of been routed in the wing ..So you don`t have a certificate.
If they don`t have a R&R how do they check the AFR`s are correct ? they are relying on the original map to be spot on ..
There ECU is just copying your original map and making adjustments to suit LPG.
So it`s only has good as your Petrol map !
If they don`t have a R&R how do they check the AFR`s are correct ? they are relying on the original map to be spot on ..
There ECU is just copying your original map and making adjustments to suit LPG.
So it`s only has good as your Petrol map !
SILICONEKID350HP said:
Whats the pipe on the far side ? I wonder if that could of been routed in the wing ..So you don`t have a certificate.
If they don`t have a R&R how do they check the AFR`s are correct ? they are relying on the original map to be spot on ..
There ECU is just copying your original map and making adjustments to suit LPG.
So it`s only has good as your Petrol map !
Pipe is fuel pipe to injectors (one both sides - see first pic).If they don`t have a R&R how do they check the AFR`s are correct ? they are relying on the original map to be spot on ..
There ECU is just copying your original map and making adjustments to suit LPG.
So it`s only has good as your Petrol map !
NO - although LPG is 'piggy backing' it still needs tuning/setting up which is all done via readings though a program on a laptop next to the car (2 x 20 min sessions to get right). As well as getting all the readings correct this setting up also controls certain other variables such as when the LPG trips to petrol etc (can't get too technical as I don't know what i am talking about..)
Hi Paul, not sold the Chimp yet. Got a bit of diff noise turn up earlier. 
Overseas buyer so told him immediately. All off until I sort it.
Going in to Carl Baker for a proper alarm system next week too so see how she goes. Might have to keep hold for the forseable. Great car this one.
Overseas buyer so told him immediately. All off until I sort it.
Going in to Carl Baker for a proper alarm system next week too so see how she goes. Might have to keep hold for the forseable. Great car this one.
Edited by pwd95 on Tuesday 15th January 23:01
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