T5 World Class or not World Class, that is the question...?

[Pete Mac]

I want to rebuild the gearbox myself. You can get some very nice kits from the US via Fleabay.

Question is, is the gearbox a T5 World Class or not?

I think it is because I read it somewhere plus the gearbox oil, ATF should be used in the World Class but not in the non-World Class.

Can someone point me in the right direction to confirm this definitively - no speculation please because that's no good to me.

I know how to check if I'm in front of the box, however I am in Kazakhstan right now and don't have the little tinker in front of me.

Cheers, Pete

[DarkMatter]

I bought a T5 rebuild manual from bearingkits.co.uk when I was thinking of rebuilding my T5 box and I concluded that the T5 box in my Griffith 500 is a World Class box. This conclusion was reached because my gearbox case matched an illustration for a world class model but not the standard model - the difference being the position of the gearlever/remote.

In the manual there are tables listing 'Three Digits of Part Number: 1352-000-XXX' but my box numbers 1352-065-922 and 1352-000-941 were not shown in the tables for world class or standard boxes.

[AV8]

DarkMatter said:

I bought a T5 rebuild manual from bearingkits.co.uk when I was thinking of rebuilding my T5 box and I concluded that the T5 box in my Griffith 500 is a World Class box. This conclusion was reached because my gearbox case matched an illustration for a world class model but not the standard model - the difference being the position of the gearlever/remote.

In the manual there are tables listing 'Three Digits of Part Number: 1352-000-XXX' but my box numbers 1352-065-922 and 1352-000-941 were not shown in the tables for world class or standard boxes.

It's my understanding that all T5's used by TVR were World Class, and hence use ATF because of the fibre blocking rings as opposed to the brass rings in the non WC, but I don't know how to prove definitely.

It is the numbers on the copper tab that are important as apparently the numbers on the castings are meaningless.

Also, the position of the lever is not an indication as it is on the tail housing and these are different depending on the application.
The only way to tell for definite is to look at the front bearing carrier housing as you say yourself.

[stevesprint]

John Reid, the TVR factory race manager, told me all TVR T5s are world class boxes. Incidentally he is still the best man to rebuild a T5 or supply T5 parts.
http://www.readmanracing.co.uk/

[Pete Mac]

AV8 said:

It's my understanding that all T5's used by TVR were World Class, and hence use ATF because of the fibre blocking rings as opposed to the brass rings in the non WC, but I don't know how to prove definitely.

It is the numbers on the copper tab that are important as apparently the numbers on the castings are meaningless.

Also, the position of the lever is not an indication as it is on the tail housing and these are different depending on the application.
The only way to tell for definite is to look at the front bearing carrier housing as you say yourself.

Pretty well my conclusion from reading on the subject. Numbers on my box are:

13-52-065-921

However that tells me nothing and I can't find reference to that number anywhere.

I quote:

"ATF for a T5 is really just for the World Class T5 that has a unique sychronizer that gear lube cannot squeeze in to lubricate. The syncros like light oil where the gears like heavy oil. The bearings are fickle too, they don't get any oil if the oil is too heavy.
• The WC T5 has papercone synchros and roller bearings on the speed gears. These tiny rollers need the thin oil for lubrication. They were designed for ATF and work well with it.
• W/C T5's have needle bearings under gears #1, 2, &3.
• The lubricant required for W/C/ T5's is automatic transmission fluid (ATF).dexron111
• W/C t5’s must use ATF dexron111 and penrite Lubrizol
• you absolutely HAVE to run the right fluid in the WC units. If you use gear oil in one of those, it'll ruin the clutch material in the synchronizers. The synchro clutch material is the same as the clutches in an automatic trans, hence the reason you have to use ATF in them."

"A World Class T5 can easily be distinguished from a non-World Class T5 by the examining the front countershaft bearing race. The non-World Class T5 countershaft rides on flat roller bearings that are retained in a stamped steel shell, which has a smooth outside surface"

As I said if I had the box in front of me I could easily tell but I don't. It looks like I will have to wait to order until I get home as although I am 90%, not quite sure enough to place an order to the US.

Meanwhile I will follow up on the UK supplier of rebuild kits.

Cheers, Pete

[Sardonicus]

Pete Mac said:

Pretty well my conclusion from reading on the subject. Numbers on my box are:

13-52-065-921

However that tells me nothing and I can't find reference to that number anywhere.

I quote:

"ATF for a T5 is really just for the World Class T5 that has a unique sychronizer that gear lube cannot squeeze in to lubricate. The syncros like light oil where the gears like heavy oil. The bearings are fickle too, they don't get any oil if the oil is too heavy.
• The WC T5 has papercone synchros and roller bearings on the speed gears. These tiny rollers need the thin oil for lubrication. They were designed for ATF and work well with it.
• W/C T5's have needle bearings under gears #1, 2, &3.
• The lubricant required for W/C/ T5's is automatic transmission fluid (ATF).dexron111
• W/C t5’s must use ATF dexron111 and penrite Lubrizol
• you absolutely HAVE to run the right fluid in the WC units. If you use gear oil in one of those, it'll ruin the clutch material in the synchronizers. The synchro clutch material is the same as the clutches in an automatic trans, hence the reason you have to use ATF in them."

"A World Class T5 can easily be distinguished from a non-World Class T5 by the examining the front countershaft bearing race. The non-World Class T5 countershaft rides on flat roller bearings that are retained in a stamped steel shell, which has a smooth outside surface"

As I said if I had the box in front of me I could easily tell but I don't. It looks like I will have to wait to order until I get home as although I am 90%, not quite sure enough to place an order to the US.

Meanwhile I will follow up on the UK supplier of rebuild kits.

Cheers, Pete

Interesting article thanks strangely enough I tried some proper manual transmission oil in my T5 some time back but did not like the cold shift and it still felt notchy even when hot so went back to my Dex3 and normal service was resumed

[DarkMatter]

I'm sorry that my observations didn't provide the evidence you need. My gearbox didn't have the brass tab so I wasn't able to use that for identification. I had my gearbox rebuilt by "The Gearbox Man" but as suggested above "John Reid" can also do them, either would be able to confirm that the TVR use a World Class T5 box.

As you are planning to do the rebuild yourself you may be considering replacing the crankshaft spigot bush. I had no end of trouble when I replaced mine, it kept binding on the gearbox input shaft. In the end I got The Gearbox Man to modify the bush to take a needle roller bearing which has given me no trouble at all. You may wish to consider doing likewise.


I also found a couple of useful links relating to T5 rebuilds...
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_10...
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_10...

Edited by DarkMatter on Friday 28th February 11:53

[Sardonicus]

DarkMatter said:

I'm sorry that my observations didn't provide the evidence you need. My gearbox didn't have the brass tab so I wasn't able to use that for identification. I had my gearbox rebuilt by "The Gearbox Man" but as suggested above "Steve Reid" can also do them, either would be able to confirm that the TVR use a World Class T5 box.

As you are planning to do the rebuild yourself you may be considering replacing the crankshaft spigot bush. I had no end of trouble when I replaced mine, it kept binding on the gearbox input shaft. In the end I got The Gearbox Man to modify the bush to take a needle roller bearing which has given me no trouble at all. You may wish to consider doing likewise.


I also found a couple of useful links relating to T5 rebuilds...
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_10...
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_10...

That looks like the pilot/spigot bearing we used to use in Ford X flows & Pinto's nice idea too this is the one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Pinto-Zetec-X-Flow-... you have just added another job to my list to do

Edited by Sardonicus on Thursday 27th February 10:06

[AV8]

Pete Mac said:

Pretty well my conclusion from reading on the subject. Numbers on my box are:

13-52-065-921

However that tells me nothing and I can't find reference to that number anywhere.

Have a look at the table on this page:

http://www.britishv8.org/articles/borg-warner-t5-i...

Looks like yours is a "Ford 1984 Mustang/Capri 5.0 V8"

the numbers on mine are 1352 248 which refers to "TVR WC" according to the table. Mines a 97 Chimaera BTW.

[BarnFind]

Surely if you drop some fluid out it you will be able to see ?

[Pete Mac]

DarkMatter said:

I'm sorry that my observations didn't provide the evidence you need. My gearbox didn't have the brass tab so I wasn't able to use that for identification. I had my gearbox rebuilt by "The Gearbox Man" but as suggested above "Steve Reid" can also do them, either would be able to confirm that the TVR use a World Class T5 box.

As you are planning to do the rebuild yourself you may be considering replacing the crankshaft spigot bush. I had no end of trouble when I replaced mine, it kept binding on the gearbox input shaft. In the end I got The Gearbox Man to modify the bush to take a needle roller bearing which has given me no trouble at all. You may wish to consider doing likewise.


I also found a couple of useful links relating to T5 rebuilds...
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_10...
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_10...

Andrew, thanks for the tips. In the end I spoke to Mark at Bearingkits.co.uk who confirmed it was a World Class gearbox but unfortunately they don't do rebuild kits anymore - not the demand. I will order mine from the US.

Again for the diff he didn't do kits but could probably source bearings and seals. It's only 6 days until I get home. I think I won't chance it. I'll look at both the box and the diff before ordering parts. I just thought I might be able to get ahead of myself.

I will have a look at these threads. Thanks for all your help, I will publish my findings. Pete

[macdeb]

What about a 'made in Mexico' sticker as I've seen. Would that indicate anything?

[AV8]

That's because the T5 is made by Tremec who are based in Mexico. They've been making them since the late 80's or so.
Prior to that they were made by Borg Warner.

[Pete Mac]

If you are interested in diy on the gearbox, these are good threads. Lots of good information plus a link to the service/rebuild manual (which I already have).

http://www.the-cooks.org.uk/bwt5.html

http://lugnutz65chevystepside.weebly.com/t5-transm...

Pete

[DarkMatter]

Pete Mac said:

If you are interested in diy on the gearbox, these are good threads......

Pete

Interesting stuff Pete.

One of those links mentioned a 'Slik Stik' shifter http://www.mcleodracing.com/products/Slik+Stik.+Tr.... They do an offset one too, I wonder if it could be fitted so that it moves the gear lever closer to the bellhousing so that the TVR fabicated remote mechanism could be ditched? Alternatively could you use a tailshaft housing which has the gear lever closer to the bellhousing?

[V8 GRF]

DarkMatter said:

I'm sorry that my observations didn't provide the evidence you need. My gearbox didn't have the brass tab so I wasn't able to use that for identification. I had my gearbox rebuilt by "The Gearbox Man" but as suggested above "Steve Reid" can also do them, either would be able to confirm that the TVR use a World Class T5 box.

Being a pedant here but while you have the correct website you have the wrong Reid. Readman Racing is John Reid, Steve Reid is a classic expert/dealer.

[DarkMatter]

V8 GRF said:

...Being a pedant here but while you have the correct website you have the wrong Reid. Readman Racing is John Reid, Steve Reid is a classic expert/dealer.

Your right, what a numpty I am! I've corrected the error in my post.

[Pete Mac]

DarkMatter said:

One of those links mentioned a 'Slik Stik' shifter http://www.mcleodracing.com/products/Slik+Stik.+Tr.... They do an offset one too, I wonder if it could be fitted so that it moves the gear lever closer to the bellhousing so that the TVR fabicated remote mechanism could be ditched? Alternatively could you use a tailshaft housing which has the gear lever closer to the bellhousing?

It's funny, I was wondering the same thing but got no further than wondering.....!

When I order my rebuild kit I was thinking of making some enquiries. There seems to be a lot more stuff on the American market than in the UK, probably because there are a load of cars that use the T5 and also they just have more people. I think also that in the UK, people are less willing to 'have a go themselves' and tend to just hand it over to get it rebuilt.

When I spoke to Mark at bearingskit.co.uk, he said they didn't stock the T5 rebuild kits because the demand was too small to make it worthwhile anymore.

Anyway, whatever I find out, I will keep you informed.

Pete

[AV8]

Pete Mac said:

It's funny, I was wondering the same thing but got no further than wondering.....!

When I order my rebuild kit I was thinking of making some enquiries. There seems to be a lot more stuff on the American market than in the UK, probably because there are a load of cars that use the T5 and also they just have more people. I think also that in the UK, people are less willing to 'have a go themselves' and tend to just hand it over to get it rebuilt.

When I spoke to Mark at bearingskit.co.uk, he said they didn't stock the T5 rebuild kits because the demand was too small to make it worthwhile anymore.

Anyway, whatever I find out, I will keep you informed.

Pete

You'd be surprised where you would find them, for example the Sherpa van and the Ssangyong Musso (the horrible 4x4) used the T5, as well as the Sierra Cosworth.

[V8 GRF]

Pete Mac said:

There seems to be a lot more stuff on the American market than in the UK, probably because there are a load of cars that use the T5 and also they just have more people.

Another factor is likely to be that the T5 design and manufacture is now owned by Tremec who are based in Michigan who also build the TKO 500/600 variant, along with supplying it to Ford for the Mustang.

http://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=102