Younger people or wanting a later second career - Business
Younger people or wanting a later second career - Business
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Discussion

fridaypassion

Original Poster:

10,848 posts

248 months

Saturday 6th December
quotequote all
Do you aspire to have your own business?

I'm 46.5 now and when I was 20 all I wanted to do was have my own business (took me until I was 33 to find the right thing but I was always wheeler-dealing)

Since I started my business they introduced tax on dividends - contributory pensions - increasing minimum wage - constant battle against the cost of living and people's income being squeezed

Now we have huge increases in business rates - ever increasing red tape - Brexit (and absolute fker for business)

As I begin the slow process of tapering out of my main business I often reflect on the fact (as I see it) I don't think I would be able to get my business off the ground today. Rents have doubled on top of all the above challenges.

Am I just an old jaded car dealer? I am going onto other things and still have ambition but that raw hunger has been beaten out of me by the business I'm in - social media management just the day to day grind. I'm not burned out but I could do with a couple of logs chucking on.

If you are under 30 do you aspire to set up a business? In what sector?

ooid

5,805 posts

120 months

Saturday 6th December
quotequote all
It really depends on the sector I guess. Knowing a few hospitality people (cafe, restaurant and etc..), they can not wait to get out, as it is impossible to find decent employees. (being on time, reliable and usual things). Obviously high energy prices killer for most types of businesses today anyway.

On the other hand, some other sectors (software, tech, science) can be actually effective, as there is still a good infrastructure here (good universities with decent research).


StevieBee

14,608 posts

275 months

Monday 8th December
quotequote all
I'm not under 30 (I'm 58) but I like to think that by dint of my sector (media, marketing, advertising, etc), I retain a more youthful, open-minded, open-eyed view of things compared to many of my immediate peers. What I see is an environment abundant in youthful entrepreneurial sprit to levels I think we've not seen for a long time, if ever.

My Son's 26. He's a self-employed PT and Fitness Coach. I have no doubt that he'll end up owning his own gym at some point. His mate, also 26, is a self-employed Roofer with a couple of lads working for him. One of their school mates is making a tidy income flogging trainers online. A friend's son (22) has recently launched his own designed range of sports clothing, all off his own back with no help from Mum or Dad and doing well.

Then you have no end of kids setting themselves up as influencers and generating decent income as a result.

Looking back, the only person I knew who started their own business in their 20s was me!

For those of my generation, it's easy to become jaded and disillusioned with business life - even if business is good. We look at things like business rates, national insurance and everything else and consider these to be burdens that restrict enterprise. So when we look at those influencers or online fashion sellers of clothes we wouldn't polish our classic Rovers with, we consider it to be somehow 'not business' or seek to in some other way diminish their efforts. This is because our frame of reference is built over many years so we have experienced less burdensome and perhaps, more simpler times. We didn't need social media to make a profit.

The younger generation don't have that frame of reference. They're defining their own. Life is what it is. They can be like us old fogies and moan about it or ignore it and crack on!

The one difference I see is that young people starting a business today are doing so more out of need than desire. It is more difficult for young people to get jobs compared to the past so creating something yourself from which to earn a living is, for some, the only viable option.

More power to them I say, and I feel the older guard can learn as much from them as they can from us.

Hopefully that doesn't come across as patronising!







lizardbrain

3,423 posts

57 months

Monday 8th December
quotequote all
The tax on dividends is only an issue if your business is successful

When I started scratching my entrepreneurial itch I didn't have a clue what the tax rates were

so I disagree I think

trickywoo

13,385 posts

250 months

Monday 8th December
quotequote all
The difference between taking a risk and plodding has been significantly reduced in the favour of a plodding salaried employment.

Most people going the business route now will be necessity rather than choice.

I went the business route in 2013 and quickly got kicked in the nuts on dividend tax. Nothing positive has happened since and I can’t wait to pack it in.

TheWokeBlob

88 posts

28 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
I think worrying about dividends taxes and the like is very much putting the cart before the horse.

The cold harsh reality is that with the extortionate cost of living and rent, many younger people simply don't have the financial backing or security to take the jump into running their own business.

While true rags to riches stories do exist, it is far more common for successful entrepreneurs to have some sort of solid financial and/or familial backing to spur on their success (and soften the blow if they did fail)

But in a country where the average rent is more or less 50% the average take home salary, home ownership (and thus potential equity/collateral to invest in a business) is below 11% among under 34s, I don't think many younger people can afford to take the risk making the jump to a full time business.

BIG asterisk on the full time part by the way. "Side hustle" culture seems to be rife amongst the younger generations, but again I'd say that's more down to being a necessity of helping to deal with the extortionate cost of living in modern day Britain

dave123456

3,674 posts

167 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
Guess it depends on how you define a business.

There will be a disproportionate number of people on here who started a business because of the rate of dividend tax, so IR35 and dividend tax increase will feel like punitive change.

StevieBee

14,608 posts

275 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
TheWokeBlob said:
But in a country where the average rent is more or less 50% the average take home salary, home ownership (and thus potential equity/collateral to invest in a business) is below 11% among under 34s, I don't think many younger people can afford to take the risk making the jump to a full time business.
There's another way to look at this and consider that young people in that position are actually in a far better position to take risks.

At some point they will eventually own a house, be married and have a family. At this point in your life, the risk bar is lowered considerably so the ability to take the inevitable risk to start a business reduces. If you haven't started a business by the age of 35, it's unlikely you ever will. The time before then is a golden opportunity to give it a go and take the risk because the consequence impacts on your life far less to the point of it being more a nuisance than anything life changing negative. This gives young people the chance to try out stuff, come up with crazy ideas and see if they work and because of this, theoretically, should be a golden age of entrepreneurial innovation.

Don't forget that people in their 20s today have the highest propensity to live healthily for longer. It's almost certain that they will need to work longer into to their lives. So the need for them to get a chivvy on with their lives is less that the generations that went before them.

Tax? - well, yeah, we would all rather pay less but as was inferred by another poster, people don't make a decision not to start a business based upon the tax they may end up paying. It's just a necessary cost of business but also one that indicates success.



fridaypassion

Original Poster:

10,848 posts

248 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
TheWokeBlob said:
I think worrying about dividends taxes and the like is very much putting the cart before the horse.

The cold harsh reality is that with the extortionate cost of living and rent, many younger people simply don't have the financial backing or security to take the jump into running their own business.

While true rags to riches stories do exist, it is far more common for successful entrepreneurs to have some sort of solid financial and/or familial backing to spur on their success (and soften the blow if they did fail)

But in a country where the average rent is more or less 50% the average take home salary, home ownership (and thus potential equity/collateral to invest in a business) is below 11% among under 34s, I don't think many younger people can afford to take the risk making the jump to a full time business.

BIG asterisk on the full time part by the way. "Side hustle" culture seems to be rife amongst the younger generations, but again I'd say that's more down to being a necessity of helping to deal with the extortionate cost of living in modern day Britain
This is the kind of answer I feared. There does seem to be a higher bar than ever to entry into setting up a business. The dividend tax is an important one as its an incentive or was as incentive when they're want additional tax. The Government want business owners to be treated the same as employed people for tax and that's not fair as we have a vastly wider responsibility as well as being unpaid tax collectors. The 30k VAT threshold will be the final nail in the coffin for aspiration in the UK If that comes I think that's the single craziest policy I've ever seen.

The posters saying that Dividend tax is ok because it's a sign you're business is successful really demonstrates that anti business culture that's seeped through society and reflected in Government particularly with Labour in power. I can't remember a time when sentiment has been so anti business. SMEs are a great way to power the economy but this Government seem to actively be trying to kill us off.

StevieBee

14,608 posts

275 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
fridaypassion said:
TheWokeBlob said:
I think worrying about dividends taxes and the like is very much putting the cart before the horse.

The cold harsh reality is that with the extortionate cost of living and rent, many younger people simply don't have the financial backing or security to take the jump into running their own business.

While true rags to riches stories do exist, it is far more common for successful entrepreneurs to have some sort of solid financial and/or familial backing to spur on their success (and soften the blow if they did fail)

But in a country where the average rent is more or less 50% the average take home salary, home ownership (and thus potential equity/collateral to invest in a business) is below 11% among under 34s, I don't think many younger people can afford to take the risk making the jump to a full time business.

BIG asterisk on the full time part by the way. "Side hustle" culture seems to be rife amongst the younger generations, but again I'd say that's more down to being a necessity of helping to deal with the extortionate cost of living in modern day Britain
This is the kind of answer I feared. There does seem to be a higher bar than ever to entry into setting up a business. The dividend tax is an important one as its an incentive or was as incentive when they're want additional tax. The Government want business owners to be treated the same as employed people for tax and that's not fair as we have a vastly wider responsibility as well as being unpaid tax collectors. The 30k VAT threshold will be the final nail in the coffin for aspiration in the UK If that comes I think that's the single craziest policy I've ever seen.

The posters saying that Dividend tax is ok because it's a sign you're business is successful really demonstrates that anti business culture that's seeped through society and reflected in Government particularly with Labour in power. I can't remember a time when sentiment has been so anti business. SMEs are a great way to power the economy but this Government seem to actively be trying to kill us off.
I think I'm one of the posters you refer to.

I've been involved in running and owning businesses on and off for the best part of 40 years. I've met and worked with a lot of others who've done the same. Not one of them started a business with the sole aim of becoming rich. You start a business because you have an idea, the drive to control your own destiny, an opportunity presents itself or you have no choice. Wealth may follow but is by no means certain and is not - or should not - be the reason to pursue business opportunity. There's easier and less risky means to become rich.

But, even with the increasing tax rates and burdens the befall upon business owners today, owning a business remains a highly tax efficient way to earn a living.

And the evidence doesn't align with your view either. 16% of people under 35 own a business. 58% of people between 18 and 35 currently own or are interested in owning their own business. This is the highest it's ever been. Report here if you're interested

I do think we sometimes worry unnecessarily for the younger generations. It's a bit like Student Loans - the only people I hear criticising them or moaning about them are people who've never had them. I hardly ever hear students (current or past) going on about the subject. Yes, rent and cost of living is stupidly high - yet I look at my kids and their peers - all late 20s and early 30s and all of them are living in mortgaged flats or houses. None of them come from super-wealthy families but they managed to figure it out and get sorted.

I do think that doom is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think something isn't possible, it isn't.










MOMACC

571 posts

57 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
Nothing to do with Tax for me.

Likely need £250k to set up my own firm which takes in the initial registration, compliance and IT into account.

My issue is I can earn a very good base, unlimited bonus on top (subject to delivering growth), benefits galore, 1-2 days a week in the office per week max, get to do the school run 60% of the week.

I could join a network and let them handle a lot of the back office, set up etc. and pay them a cut of what I make. The issue I have is that my client base is large multinational who value the service of a global firm, going it alone would mean finding a new client base from scratch in a very competitive sector.

lizardbrain

3,423 posts

57 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
I think OP would be moaning just as much as an employee too

pete_esp

323 posts

115 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
I'm not sub 30 but I did start a side hustle business and I fully agree with the anti business sentiment expressed here. My business required a significant capital injection to get off the ground to fabricate a manufacturing tool, get IP protections in place and do some design validation & testing.

There was almost 0 help available with the set up cost. There is absolutely £0 help available right now, in fact to get some start up business finance I need to get my business generating ~£5k per month in revenue. This is a problem I've not worked out how to solve. Even with all of the data we now have that the product is not just viable but is potentially a significant segment disruptor in a very lucrative market sector.

However, on the younger generation front, I have discovered that most entrepreneur's in my areas are in there 20's, living with their parents and I think this makes absolute sense. There is almost no chance of them being able to fund a house purchase solely through employment within a reasonable timescale whilst having some quality of life. Therefore I have told my kids they are welcome to stay at home and have 0 living costs if they are setting up a viable business in return for a small equity share in their businesses.

fridaypassion

Original Poster:

10,848 posts

248 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
lizardbrain said:
I think OP would be moaning just as much as an employee too
Shhh! Grown ups talking

StevieBee

14,608 posts

275 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
pete_esp said:
I'm not sub 30 but I did start a side hustle business and I fully agree with the anti business sentiment expressed here. My business required a significant capital injection to get off the ground to fabricate a manufacturing tool, get IP protections in place and do some design validation & testing.

There was almost 0 help available with the set up cost. There is absolutely £0 help available right now, in fact to get some start up business finance I need to get my business generating ~£5k per month in revenue. This is a problem I've not worked out how to solve. Even with all of the data we now have that the product is not just viable but is potentially a significant segment disruptor in a very lucrative market sector.
Hasn't that always been the case. though?

When I set up in the late 80s, I managed to get something called the Enterprise Allowance Scheme which equated to something like £100 a month for 12 months. To get this I had to sign on for six weeks. That's the only time I've known of any hard 'free' cash injection available to brand new businesses.

I do see a lot of misplaced expectations amongst start ups (and I'm not suggesting this is you - just stating a wider observation) - that someone should else fund their idea but take a disproportionate level of risk. I have friend battling this very thing - trying to get a HR type company off the ground but needs £40k. He's found investors but they all want a slice of the pie far bigger than he's willing to offer. He's not willing to remortgage his house and seems to prefer 100% of nothing rather than a smaller percentage of something.

That's not to say that the government shouldn't be doing more to encourage start-ups but there will always be a limit on what they can and should do.







Bob-iylho

836 posts

126 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
fridaypassion said:
Do you aspire to have your own business?

I'm 46.5 now and when I was 20 all I wanted to do was have my own business (took me until I was 33 to find the right thing but I was always wheeler-dealing)

Since I started my business they introduced tax on dividends - contributory pensions - increasing minimum wage - constant battle against the cost of living and people's income being squeezed

Now we have huge increases in business rates - ever increasing red tape - Brexit (and absolute fker for business)

As I begin the slow process of tapering out of my main business I often reflect on the fact (as I see it) I don't think I would be able to get my business off the ground today. Rents have doubled on top of all the above challenges.

Am I just an old jaded car dealer? I am going onto other things and still have ambition but that raw hunger has been beaten out of me by the business I'm in - social media management just the day to day grind. I'm not burned out but I could do with a couple of logs chucking on.

If you are under 30 do you aspire to set up a business? In what sector?
I hear you loud and clear OP, 60 here, set up business at 35, lot of fun and rewards, now just jaded, tired, and done, handing over to business partner and going in April. I think its a combination of all factors.

fridaypassion

Original Poster:

10,848 posts

248 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
pete_esp said:
I'm not sub 30 but I did start a side hustle business and I fully agree with the anti business sentiment expressed here. My business required a significant capital injection to get off the ground to fabricate a manufacturing tool, get IP protections in place and do some design validation & testing.

There was almost 0 help available with the set up cost. There is absolutely £0 help available right now, in fact to get some start up business finance I need to get my business generating ~£5k per month in revenue. This is a problem I've not worked out how to solve. Even with all of the data we now have that the product is not just viable but is potentially a significant segment disruptor in a very lucrative market sector.

However, on the younger generation front, I have discovered that most entrepreneur's in my areas are in there 20's, living with their parents and I think this makes absolute sense. There is almost no chance of them being able to fund a house purchase solely through employment within a reasonable timescale whilst having some quality of life. Therefore I have told my kids they are welcome to stay at home and have 0 living costs if they are setting up a viable business in return for a small equity share in their businesses.
Ha I like the idea of bed and board for 3% of the business like an extreme Dragon's Den board game laugh

Going into the world of work is valuable though you can learn a lot from other business owners. I always worked in SME's as an employee never wanted to work for a big company so you could see how the cogs turned. There are two stand out bosses I had. I was lucky to work in an internet startup in 1999 that was the single biggest learning experience probably worth a degree on it's own. Went from being first employee to VC funding and absolute madness it was quite a ride.

lizardbrain

3,423 posts

57 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
fridaypassion said:
Shhh! Grown ups talking
Them make a grown up point instead of a childish tantrum

Most of OPs points are not peculiar to entrepreneurship

For eg rents have doubled for workers too

Also you mention being an employ who has never started or ran a real business?

Perhaps you should do one

LooneyTunes

8,608 posts

178 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
I do think that doom is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think something isn't possible, it isn't.
For a more positive spin: whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're probably correct.

StevieBee said:
I do see a lot of misplaced expectations amongst start ups (and I'm not suggesting this is you - just stating a wider observation) - that someone should else fund their idea but take a disproportionate level of risk. I have friend battling this very thing - trying to get a HR type company off the ground but needs £40k. He's found investors but they all want a slice of the pie far bigger than he's willing to offer. He's not willing to remortgage his house and seems to prefer 100% of nothing rather than a smaller percentage of something.

That's not to say that the government shouldn't be doing more to encourage start-ups but there will always be a limit on what they can and should do.
If he's found investors and isn't prepared to put skin in the game himself, he should be ripping their arms off (pretty much whatever % they are asking for). As an investor you want and need it to be hard for someone to throw in the towel when the going gets tough.

Capital is just one part of it though: it's having the balls to make the leap in the knowledge that you are probably going to be working your arse off like never before. Life in employee land is comfortable, life in founder land is not.

Similarly he's probably being quite short-sighted too if he is thinking it is only money that investors can bring. A solid investor who has "been there and bough the t-shirt" can save you a fortune in both cash and development time...


fridaypassion

Original Poster:

10,848 posts

248 months

Tuesday 9th December
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
I think I'm one of the posters you refer to.

I've been involved in running and owning businesses on and off for the best part of 40 years. I've met and worked with a lot of others who've done the same. Not one of them started a business with the sole aim of becoming rich. You start a business because you have an idea, the drive to control your own destiny, an opportunity presents itself or you have no choice. Wealth may follow but is by no means certain and is not - or should not - be the reason to pursue business opportunity. There's easier and less risky means to become rich.

But, even with the increasing tax rates and burdens the befall upon business owners today, owning a business remains a highly tax efficient way to earn a living.

And the evidence doesn't align with your view either. 16% of people under 35 own a business. 58% of people between 18 and 35 currently own or are interested in owning their own business. This is the highest it's ever been. Report here if you're interested

I do think we sometimes worry unnecessarily for the younger generations. It's a bit like Student Loans - the only people I hear criticising them or moaning about them are people who've never had them. I hardly ever hear students (current or past) going on about the subject. Yes, rent and cost of living is stupidly high - yet I look at my kids and their peers - all late 20s and early 30s and all of them are living in mortgaged flats or houses. None of them come from super-wealthy families but they managed to figure it out and get sorted.

I do think that doom is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think something isn't possible, it isn't.
I think there are two types of self employed there are people that absolutely want to go make a fortune I personally align more with exactly what you said it was more around autonomy for me and just being good came first and money as a bi product all that good stuff sure. However take all that into consideration the tax regime is part of a bigger picture that's stopped me expanding and taking things further. Its not a good system for true Entrepreneurs.

The second group of self employed would be your contractors so not a "business" as such I think this is what Government want to see align more with regular employed people rightly or wrongly.

The report you quote is interesting but its the number of people who run or are "interested in" running their own business. The actual number is about 13.5% Nationally. That figure of 58% to me reflects a staggering 42% of you folks with no big dreams sub age 34. Of course a lot of people have aspirations totally outside of business/money etc and that's fine but that statistic is essentially meaningless. The interesting one is the 16% of younger people actually doing it which is above the national average for all age groups which is good to see.

The tax efficiency is being eroded certainly from my perspective trading within the grossly unfair VAT margin scheme we are basically taxed at 50% pretty much if you add up Margin VAT onto Corp tax/Div tax/personal tax so my view will be skewed slightly on that.