Discussion
Yesterday (19th) got a lettr from our friends at HMRC saying they didn't have opur P11D(B) and that the dealine was the 19th and thereafter I would be liable to a penalty. The letter was dated June 30th but arived July 19th.
They had our cheque and had cashed it 2 weeks ago.
Spoke with their local office, no they hadn't had the forms and 'people just don't understand that you can't send the money and the P11D in together'.
Spoke to my accountant who had submitted the forms for me, who was under a pile of identical letters. It appears that somewhere forms are backlogged and nobdy knows where, as some of the forms he sent in have had the letter and some not, and they went in the same envelope.
Spoke with HMRC again and told them this. Not interested, they didn't have the form in their office and had cleared their backlog of 35000 forms, so there.
can I fine them for incompetence?
The VAT m,an also owes me almost £3000
HMRC is collapsing at the moment as they struggle to implement their own rules and regulations with poorly paid and untrained staff.
The P11D(b) is a declaration concerning the completeness of submitted P11Ds and the calculation of any Class 1A National Insurance liabilities on Benefits in Kind in the previous tax year. The P11D(b) should have been submitted to your PAYE Office by 6th July. However, they only levy a late filing penalty if the form is received after 19th July. Although you show any Class 1A liabilities due on the P11D(b), you are NOT supposed to include any payments with this form.
A SEPARATE form, payslip and pre-paid envelope is provided to allow the payment to be made. The payment, like most tax payments, is sent to the COLLECTOR of Taxes at Shipley in Yorkshire. The payment (if due) should have been made by 19 July.
The P11D(b) is a declaration concerning the completeness of submitted P11Ds and the calculation of any Class 1A National Insurance liabilities on Benefits in Kind in the previous tax year. The P11D(b) should have been submitted to your PAYE Office by 6th July. However, they only levy a late filing penalty if the form is received after 19th July. Although you show any Class 1A liabilities due on the P11D(b), you are NOT supposed to include any payments with this form.
A SEPARATE form, payslip and pre-paid envelope is provided to allow the payment to be made. The payment, like most tax payments, is sent to the COLLECTOR of Taxes at Shipley in Yorkshire. The payment (if due) should have been made by 19 July.
Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 21st July 09:44
I wondr where they stand legaly with paymnets sent in with the P11DB form. After all , people have paid their dues and submittd their returns on time, they just haven't done it at the administrative ease of HMRC. Just because we don't always send it to the correct ofice is hardly the basis for a fine is it? If companies started adding on interest because invoices had been paid to the wrong office I suspect customers would soon go elsewhere.
It is obvious that you should not be fined or face interest charges if you did pay the tax on time. However, the problem for the Revenue will be tracing the payment through their labyrinthine system. What you need to do is talk tio your "tax office" (not the "tax collector" ) and explain what has happened. Ask them to put a stop on any collection procedures until they trace the payment.
If they insist that they have never received it, you should have adequate PAPER proof in your own records showing that the payment was made - cheques stubbs, counterfoil of paying-in slip, bank statement showing payment being processed by bank etc etc.
In these circumtsances, paper is king and from now on make a paper note of EVERY communication with any Revenue officials and obtain the name of any official you talk to.
If they insist that they have never received it, you should have adequate PAPER proof in your own records showing that the payment was made - cheques stubbs, counterfoil of paying-in slip, bank statement showing payment being processed by bank etc etc.
In these circumtsances, paper is king and from now on make a paper note of EVERY communication with any Revenue officials and obtain the name of any official you talk to.
Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 21st July 10:42
HMRC are at it again.
I managed to overpay my VAT after an inspection (basically I corrected an underpaymnet of £3000 in the next VAT quarter but was then told I shouldn't have done it until I had had the notice as it was over £2000 and was told by HMRC I had to pay the amount as per the order or face death, so I did, thus paying twice). I wrote to the voluntary Disclosure Seat (VDS) to seek a refund and...............................silence. Tried to contact them but the number IO had rang out and the HMRC web site was slightly worse than useless in finding the local VAT compliance office.
A month went by and in the end I popped into the local HMRC office and spoke with a girl who denied all knowledge of the VAT office in the town in an adjacent street. She did recall the name of the building it was in, but couldn't tell me where it was. I eventually located it with the help of a local solicitiors office; an unmarked locked door in a pi55 filled alley. A girl having a ciggie at the back door refused to take my reminder note from her because 'it wasn't her section'. In the end I had to push it through the letter box.
Joined up thinking? Customer service?
I managed to overpay my VAT after an inspection (basically I corrected an underpaymnet of £3000 in the next VAT quarter but was then told I shouldn't have done it until I had had the notice as it was over £2000 and was told by HMRC I had to pay the amount as per the order or face death, so I did, thus paying twice). I wrote to the voluntary Disclosure Seat (VDS) to seek a refund and...............................silence. Tried to contact them but the number IO had rang out and the HMRC web site was slightly worse than useless in finding the local VAT compliance office.
A month went by and in the end I popped into the local HMRC office and spoke with a girl who denied all knowledge of the VAT office in the town in an adjacent street. She did recall the name of the building it was in, but couldn't tell me where it was. I eventually located it with the help of a local solicitiors office; an unmarked locked door in a pi55 filled alley. A girl having a ciggie at the back door refused to take my reminder note from her because 'it wasn't her section'. In the end I had to push it through the letter box.
Joined up thinking? Customer service?
Next installment:
They never got the letter, the girl having the ciggie should have taken it. They did have my original letter on the system but nobody had done anything with it for the past month and nobody was going to; "slipped the net I am afraid".
Made writing the monthly HMRC cheque just that little bit harder to do.
I work as in professional services through my own limited co and frankly I can't take it with the one-sided approach of HMRC any longer.
On the one hand if you fail to submit numerous forms throughout the year on time you will face automatic penalities with no possibility of special circumstances being taken into consideration. In my case I work abroad around 9 months of the year so meeting these deadlines is tough when I'm not physically in the country.
Then on the other hand, when HMRC screw up and lose things you're normally the one that'll get the penalty and you'll have to very aggressively appeal in order to get anywhere. However, when do we get to impose penalties on HMRC for screwing up?
Oh and this takes the cake: last year got a letter saying that as I employ over 250 people I must file my PAYE online or face fines. Funny thing is I don't employ over 250 people, I employ just myself under PAYE!
I had enough 2 weeks ago when I had about a hundred things to do before leaving for an assignment in India. I was up from 5am on Saturday morning until 5:30am on Sunday - only stopping to have a shower before leaving to the airport. That was when I decided this isn't going to work any longer, I won't keep taking it up the arse anymore. The undue stress it causes should be illegal. I'm going to move away from this wretched system and domicile myself in Monaco.
On the one hand if you fail to submit numerous forms throughout the year on time you will face automatic penalities with no possibility of special circumstances being taken into consideration. In my case I work abroad around 9 months of the year so meeting these deadlines is tough when I'm not physically in the country.
Then on the other hand, when HMRC screw up and lose things you're normally the one that'll get the penalty and you'll have to very aggressively appeal in order to get anywhere. However, when do we get to impose penalties on HMRC for screwing up?
Oh and this takes the cake: last year got a letter saying that as I employ over 250 people I must file my PAYE online or face fines. Funny thing is I don't employ over 250 people, I employ just myself under PAYE!
I had enough 2 weeks ago when I had about a hundred things to do before leaving for an assignment in India. I was up from 5am on Saturday morning until 5:30am on Sunday - only stopping to have a shower before leaving to the airport. That was when I decided this isn't going to work any longer, I won't keep taking it up the arse anymore. The undue stress it causes should be illegal. I'm going to move away from this wretched system and domicile myself in Monaco.
Eric Mc said:
Have you not got a tame accountnat looking after your company for you?
He/she should be able to ensure that all these silly deadlines and bureaucratic niceties are monitored dealt with effectively.
He/she should be able to ensure that all these silly deadlines and bureaucratic niceties are monitored dealt with effectively.
I do, and I think he does a good job. But, I have to sign most things so the only thing he can do is fill out the forms and send them to me to sign and return. This doesn't work if I have to be out of the country frequently and often leave on short notice.
On the assumption that your company does not need to be independently audited, it should be possible to make the accountant a fellow director or secretary of the company which would allow him/her to sign company documentation. There would be no need for the accountant to be a shareholder so you would still retain control of your company. Indeed, some documentation (such as PAYE returns) could be signed by the accountant without them having to become a director or secretary of the company.
Obviously, the accountant would have to be happy to work under this type of arrangement but if getting you to sign paperwork is proving administratively difficult, then it nmight be one possible solution.
Obviously, the accountant would have to be happy to work under this type of arrangement but if getting you to sign paperwork is proving administratively difficult, then it nmight be one possible solution.
Eric Mc said:
On the assumption that your company does not need to be independently audited, it should be possible to make the accountant a fellow director or secretary of the company which would allow him/her to sign company documentation. There would be no need for the accountant to be a shareholder so you would still retain control of your company. Indeed, some documentation (such as PAYE returns) could be signed by the accountant without them having to become a director or secretary of the company.
Obviously, the accountant would have to be happy to work under this type of arrangement but if getting you to sign paperwork is proving administratively difficult, then it nmight be one possible solution.
Obviously, the accountant would have to be happy to work under this type of arrangement but if getting you to sign paperwork is proving administratively difficult, then it nmight be one possible solution.
Yep, that's a possibility. But I've been keeping an eye also on the government crack-down on one-man-band service companies in their misguided belief that we should really be employees. I ask myself what the point is of living in the UK, paying taxes fairly each year only to have you accused as being a tax dodger if you take company profit as a dividend instead of a bigger salary; or having revenue inquiries and investigations for no reason other than you're a small company and easy pickings.
Simply, I've had enough of it. A fair few people I know have had enough and left already, lots of other people are contemplating it and I'm going to go from contemplating it to doing it.
Edited by Jared_m on Saturday 29th July 16:20
Eric Mc said:
If you are in a position to do this then that is fine. Many aren't.
The solution is a change of government of course. Brown is of the opinion that organising one's own tax affairs legally is borderline "illegal" - which is a very dangerous atitude to possess.
The solution is a change of government of course. Brown is of the opinion that organising one's own tax affairs legally is borderline "illegal" - which is a very dangerous atitude to possess.
Yep, a dangerous attitude indeed but what can anyone do about it - not a whole lot in the near term except go away for a few years and pray that good sense hits those in public office.
Jared_m said:
Eric Mc said:
If you are in a position to do this then that is fine. Many aren't.
The solution is a change of government of course. Brown is of the opinion that organising one's own tax affairs legally is borderline "illegal" - which is a very dangerous atitude to possess.
The solution is a change of government of course. Brown is of the opinion that organising one's own tax affairs legally is borderline "illegal" - which is a very dangerous atitude to possess.
and pray that good sense hits those in public office.
I won't hold my breath!
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