Can I force a driver to retire at 65?

[Tyre Smoke]

Morally it is probably wrong in this day and age of employing more mature staff, but this bloke is such a complete cnut I want to get rid asap. He is the original Grump Old Man, everything is too much trouble, he is lazy, will not work a second past his finish time nor do any favours for his fellow drivers. He wants everything his way and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

[superlightr]

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

I know where your coming from, look on ACAS website or have a chat to them.

[Tyre Smoke]

superlightr said:

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

I know where your coming from, look on ACAS website or have a chat to them.

Of course not! But I do expect him to have the best interests of his employer at heart. I expect him to be polite and couteous to customers, I expect him to think on his feet and not just use the easy option of saying no. After all if I go bust, he is out of work anyway because he has frightened all my customers away.

[Tyre Smoke]

superlightr said:

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

I know where your coming from, look on ACAS website or have a chat to them.

Worse than fecking useless! Spoke to some monotone woman who couldn't give me a definite answer because apparently there is a new law coming in in October allowing people to work by right past retirement age - great! Watch out for 70 year old brickies up ladders getting vertigo and 80 year old bin men

[jacko lah]

Well it's all a matter of objective setting and being specific about what is an is not acceptable.

Being rude to customers is worthy of a Written Warning.

Doing just enough is worthy of NO pay increase, and giving him a few shitty jobs like toilet cleaning.

Set objectives that could be achieved by anyone, insist on yearly health checks and eye test, promote him to a job he can't do, and then sack him for incompetatnce.

[Tyre Smoke]

jacko lah said:

Well it's all a matter of objective setting and being specific about what is an is not acceptable.

Being rude to customers is worthy of a Written Warning.

Doing just enough is worthy of NO pay increase, and giving him a few shitty jobs like toilet cleaning.

Set objectives that could be achieved by anyone, insist on yearly health checks and eye test, promote him to a job he can't do, and then sack him for incompetatnce.

All good advice, but he's a taxi driver!

I'm thinking of checking my fleet insurance it might be that we are only insured for drivers between 25 and 65.

[Sam_68]

Tyre Smoke said:

Watch out for 70 year old brickies up ladders getting vertigo

Nonononono!! Brickies aren't allowed to work up ladders, these days! They have to work on scaffolding, which must have been erectted by a competent and qualified scaffolder!

Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 25th August 18:20

[jamesuk28]

superlightr said:

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

I know where your coming from, look on ACAS website or have a chat to them.

What a stupid comment!!!! I know TYRESMOKE and he is a very reasonable bloke, a thoroughlly nice guy. I think the crux of TYRESMOKES argument is it works both ways. Scratch my back and ill scratch yours. If this driver went slightly beyond the call of duty, ie helped his fellow drivers now and then, stayed on 5 mins late them I am sure this would be reciprocated. http://parkwaytaxis.com main selling point is there fan - bleeding - tastic service, you cant afford to have a tw.at like this on the books. retire his lazy arse.

Tyresmoke my brother is very well versed in employment law, when he gets back of holiday ill run this past him and see what your options are mate.

[Tyre Smoke]

Thanks mate at least you know where I'm coming from!

[Wacky Racer]

Could be worse, you could have Les Battersby on your books........

[FourWheelDrift]

Tyre Smoke said:

Worse than fecking useless! Spoke to some monotone woman who couldn't give me a definite answer because apparently there is a new law coming in in October allowing people to work by right past retirement age - great! Watch out for 70 year old brickies up ladders getting vertigo and 80 year old bin men

True (of sorts ) but it's also to protect young people from being rejected for being too young despite having the proper experience/qualifications.

But it's a total minefield, you just can't the staff these days as it is, now we're going to have to think up more eleborate excuse to not employ someone and we can no longer use the terms "idiot", "cretin" or "schmuck" either.

PS. Advertising is up the creek too as there are potential problems in asking for "X" number of years experience too, asking for qualifications from a Red Brick or Ivy League University rather than Hull Poly. Anything that is too specific or potentially pre-rejecting anyone on any grounds seems to be verboten.

Adverts will end up looking like this.

advert after 1st October said:

Person wanted to do job apply.

Edited by FourWheelDrift on Saturday 26th August 00:27

[deadslow]

jamesuk28 said:

superlightr said:

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

What a stupid comment!!!!

Now THAT is a stupid comment! I'm sure all parties in this are perfectly reasonable, with good points of view, but expecting more than you pay for is daft.

[jamesuk28]

deadslow said:

jamesuk28 said:

superlightr said:

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

What a stupid comment!!!!

Now THAT is a stupid comment! I'm sure all parties in this are perfectly reasonable, with good points of view, but expecting more than you pay for is daft.

I note from your profile you are "self employed" as such you surely must understand that there is no such think as 9 - 5 or 1 hour lunch breaks anymore. Most businesses are in highly competetive markets, their employees must tow the line in order for the business to remain ahead of the competition. Its in EVERYBODY'S interest.

[thepeoplespal]

Tyre Smoke said:

Morally it is probably wrong in this day and age of employing more mature staff, but this bloke is such a complete cnut I want to get rid asap. He is the original Grump Old Man, everything is too much trouble, he is lazy, will not work a second past his finish time nor do any favours for his fellow drivers. He wants everything his way and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

Definitely worth consulting a good employment solicitor and doing everything by the book.

As it stands at the moment sacking him straight off will quite rightly lead to you being held to account for unfair dismissal. But luckly it is still legal to set a compulsory retirement age, they are just unlawful if below 65. So your driver could be covered by a geniuine retirement.

Try reading this: www.agepositive.gov.uk/complogos/Man_Age_Transport_v4.pdf

"Compulsory retirement ages are Unlawful if below 65 (which affects 6% of all employers), unless it can be objectively justified. 50% of the UK workforce is affected by compulsory retirement ages (because this is more common in large firms). However, in most cases the fixed age is 65, which will remain lawful, although employers must consider requests to stay on."

From what I am aware you would have to give notice that there is a compulsory retirement age and you will have to consider requests to stay on, but I'm sure this gives you enough scope providing none of your other drivers are over the age of 65.

Details of the Age Discrimination Regulations, which will come into force in October 2006, can be found on the DTI’s website at:
www.dti.gov.uk/employment/discrimi

HTH

Edited by thepeoplespal on Monday 28th August 13:07

[Tyre Smoke]

Thanks, definitely useful. Nearest next oldest driver is 48, so not really an issue. There is no precedent here, because there has never been a driver employed by the company over the age of 65.

So, write to him sooner rather than later and advise him of compulsory retirement at 65? I could actually give him a 'get out clause' of being a casual driver for use as and when I need him. Would this get around the 'must consider allowing to stay on bit'?

[superlightr]

jamesuk28 said:

deadslow said:

jamesuk28 said:

superlightr said:

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

What a stupid comment!!!!

Now THAT is a stupid comment! I'm sure all parties in this are perfectly reasonable, with good points of view, but expecting more than you pay for is daft.

I note from your profile you are "self employed" as such you surely must understand that there is no such think as 9 - 5 or 1 hour lunch breaks anymore. Most businesses are in highly competetive markets, their employees must tow the line in order for the business to remain ahead of the competition. Its in EVERYBODY'S interest.

Jamesuk28

Thanks for calling my reply stupid! It was based on experience I would add.

I dont know the op like you do, but to expect someone to do more then they are contracted to do is not realisitc.

I dont expect my staff to do more then the hours they are contracted to do. I dont expect them to go the extra mile.... If they do then fantastic, but I would not be very sensible to base my business on expecting things from staff which arnt contracted.

[Tyre Smoke]

superlightr said:

jamesuk28 said:

deadslow said:

jamesuk28 said:

superlightr said:

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

What a stupid comment!!!!

Now THAT is a stupid comment! I'm sure all parties in this are perfectly reasonable, with good points of view, but expecting more than you pay for is daft.

I note from your profile you are "self employed" as such you surely must understand that there is no such think as 9 - 5 or 1 hour lunch breaks anymore. Most businesses are in highly competetive markets, their employees must tow the line in order for the business to remain ahead of the competition. Its in EVERYBODY'S interest.

Jamesuk28

Thanks for calling my reply stupid! It was based on experience I would add.

I dont know the op like you do, but to expect someone to do more then they are contracted to do is not realisitc.

I dont expect my staff to do more then the hours they are contracted to do. I dont expect them to go the extra mile.... If they do then fantastic, but I would not be very sensible to base my business on expecting things from staff which arnt contracted.

I expect my drivers to do what they are contracted to do. I also expect them to take a pride in their work, be interested in what they do and be consciencious workers. I expect them to take a pride in the vehicle they drive, keep it clean and tidy and wash it as required (paid for by the company, not them) I provide a uniform and turn a blind eye to personal calls on the company mobiles. I do not expect them to be rude to customers, be sulky, and give the clear impression they are only working for the money and could care less about the welfare of the company.

To be honest superlightr if you think employing the sort of people in the last sentence is acceptable, I am surprised a) you still have a business and b) wouldn't want your company anywhere near me, I'd employ someone who was interested.

So, without wishing to get personal, I think your comment was a little stupid and can see where James was coming from.

[jamesuk28]

Tyre Smoke said:

superlightr said:

jamesuk28 said:

deadslow said:

jamesuk28 said:

superlightr said:

Tyre Smoke said:

and does just enough to keep within his contractural obligations.

Your thoughts?

and you want more than he is contracted to do for free?

What a stupid comment!!!!

Now THAT is a stupid comment! I'm sure all parties in this are perfectly reasonable, with good points of view, but expecting more than you pay for is daft.

I note from your profile you are "self employed" as such you surely must understand that there is no such think as 9 - 5 or 1 hour lunch breaks anymore. Most businesses are in highly competetive markets, their employees must tow the line in order for the business to remain ahead of the competition. Its in EVERYBODY'S interest.

Jamesuk28

Thanks for calling my reply stupid! It was based on experience I would add.

I dont know the op like you do, but to expect someone to do more then they are contracted to do is not realisitc.

I dont expect my staff to do more then the hours they are contracted to do. I dont expect them to go the extra mile.... If they do then fantastic, but I would not be very sensible to base my business on expecting things from staff which arnt contracted.

I expect my drivers to do what they are contracted to do. I also expect them to take a pride in their work, be interested in what they do and be consciencious workers. I expect them to take a pride in the vehicle they drive, keep it clean and tidy and wash it as required (paid for by the company, not them) I provide a uniform and turn a blind eye to personal calls on the company mobiles. I do not expect them to be rude to customers, be sulky, and give the clear impression they are only working for the money and could care less about the welfare of the company.

To be honest superlightr if you think employing the sort of people in the last sentence is acceptable, I am surprised a) you still have a business and b) wouldn't want your company anywhere near me, I'd employ someone who was interested.

So, without wishing to get personal, I think your comment was a little stupid and can see where James was coming from.

Can I come and work for you superlight? it sounds grrrreat.....

Tyresmoke if you had gone with my original plan of employing Divers, you would not have this problem now. You only have yourself to blame mate.

[Tyre Smoke]

Quite true, the old tt would probably have got the bends and snuffed it!

Perhaps I should introduce wetsuits, aqualungs and flippers......



New marketing angle for Parkway Taxis!

[superlightr]

Tyre Smoke said:

To be honest superlightr if you think employing the sort of people in the last sentence is acceptable, I am surprised a) you still have a business and b) wouldn't want your company anywhere near me, I'd employ someone who was interested.

So, without wishing to get personal, I think your comment was a little stupid and can see where James was coming from.

I must be doing something right! Although we did qently extract a couple out who did not have the attitude I was looking for some years ago.

Dont think I said my staff dont do a good job, or are not interested in the work they do, no that im not happy with the work or the attitude they have. We start at 9am and go at 5.30 (5pm Friday)!

I dont expect anyone to work longer than that as they are not contracted to do so. Part of their day to day work involves being 'helpful' in a loose sort of way but more precisly being professional and correct in their work is what Im after. Unfortuantly 'too helpful' comes back to bite us but thats pequliar to this type of business. (Lettings.)

Clearly different type of work, but unless you have proper grounds for getting rid of the guy i think your stuck with him. Proper in terms of breaching his contract of employment. If you, as the boss, dont like his level of 'helpfullness' then you can express this in terms of his salary review which im sure you will do/done and more serious problems by warnings and improvement letters.


ps

So he cherfully picks up clients and drives them and drops them off on time, and returns to base.
Have you had bad feedback from clients?
I would have though washing and keeping the cars he drives tidy/safe is also a vital part of the job as would be timekeeping. Is he upsetting clients or is it you and or the other drivers heys anoying?
Correct me, but I imagin the above is required work and above anything else is a bonus?

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 29th August 15:41