The decline of manual values

The decline of manual values

Author
Discussion

Granadier

525 posts

28 months

Friday 10th May
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I have a second car that has manual gearbox, unassisted steering, carb, manual choke, wind-up windows, manual folding roof, and drum brakes at the back. It's perfectly possible to use a car like that for general motoring. I was using that Escort almost as a daily last summer, getting as much use as I could before the ULEZ axe fell - even took the family for a weekend in Bournemouth. I like reconnecting with the simpler mechanical stuff, and also with what cars were like when I was young. And the slight challenge of putting in more effort is fun up to a point, it's just a bit harder work. Then you can go back to a newer car with more mod cons afterwards and appreciate those too.

snuffy

9,882 posts

285 months

Friday 10th May
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When I bought my Nissan GT-R, the one thing I was not keen on was it having a manual box. It actually an automated manual, so paddles or auto mode.

I felt I somehow wasn't connected with the car, especially since (and people will laugh) I was somewhat worried about using the paddles and putting it in the wrong gear and blowing the engine up ! (you can't do that of course, the gearbox will not let you). Now I drive it on paddles all the time and don't miss a gearstick.


CABC

5,610 posts

102 months

Friday 10th May
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ThingsBehindTheSun said:
Did anyone mourn the following when they were superseded by something better?

Un-assisted steering replaced by power steering
Drum brakes replaced by disc brakes
Points and distributor cap replaced by electronic ignition
Carburettor and choke replaced with fuel injection

Personally for an everyday car I would take an automatic over a manual every time.
Did anyone mourn the following when they were superseded by something better?
tall gearing aimed at achieving better mpg test results
big brake servos needing 5mm pedal travel
big wheels & narrow sidewalls. ride not important, they look great.
lane assist
yellow H&S stickers inside cars

Everything new is better.

GravelBen

15,726 posts

231 months

Friday 10th May
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Pit Pony said:
LuS1fer said:
Autos are boring and uninvolving and for as long as manual cars are made, I will continue to buy them.
Autos

Are less stressful in stop start traffic.

Allow you to concentrate on steering and braking

Are helpful if you have calcification of your left shoulder joint, meaning that changing gear or using a manual hand brake is painful. (When I say painful, imagine going for a drive and having to take the next day off work)

Can be just as involving if you get the right one.

Are essential if you have need of a new hip or are missing a leg.
Of course autos are easier in stop start traffic and essential if you have certain physical injuries/disability/limitations, that goes without saying. I was glad to temporarily swap my manual car with a family members automatic when I had back surgery, and just as glad to swap back when I recovered.

You can try to convince yourself that an auto is just as involving as a manual, but you are wrong. A manual requires more driver input and allows more driver control, by definition it is more involving.

Not everyone wants that extra involvement, and that's OK - if an auto was just as involving then it wouldn't have the advantages of easier use and detachment.

The claim that an auto allows you to concentrate on steering and braking better than a manual is nonsense in my opinion, I find the delayed and variable response of an auto much more distracting and interfering than a simple, predictable manual gearchange (which can be so ingrained into muscle memory that it barely even requires conscious thought). It's probably just a question of what you're more accustomed to.

Ken_Code

758 posts

3 months

Friday 10th May
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LuS1fer said:
Autos are boring and uninvolving and for as long as manual cars are made, I will continue to buy them.
McLarens and Ferraris are all automatics now, and don’t tend to be described as boring or uninvolving.

cerb4.5lee

30,944 posts

181 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
snuffy said:
When I bought my Nissan GT-R, the one thing I was not keen on was it having a manual box. It actually an automated manual, so paddles or auto mode.

I felt I somehow wasn't connected with the car, especially since (and people will laugh) I was somewhat worried about using the paddles and putting it in the wrong gear and blowing the engine up ! (you can't do that of course, the gearbox will not let you). Now I drive it on paddles all the time and don't miss a gearstick.
I was always on the fence a bit with DCT gearboxes etc. However I do think that a fast car suits a fast gearbox if you know what I mean though. Both my 370Z/Caterham have 3 pedals, and they suit them for me, because they aren't slow, but they aren't really fast either. Plus they're both naturally aspirated as well. Whereas the DCT suits the performance of my F82 M4 I reckon, and I always say the faster the car the more it suits a faster gearbox I think(much like the R35 GT-R as well).

I did originally want the M4 with 3 pedals, but I don't now though, because the DCT really suits the performance/engine for me.

ThingsBehindTheSun

215 posts

32 months

Friday 10th May
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CABC said:
tall gearing aimed at achieving better mpg test results
I do like a high geared sixth gear so the car is pulling as low revs as possible at 70MPH

CABC said:
big brake servos needing 5mm pedal travel
Years ago I borrowed an old VW Polo bread van that didn't have servo assist on the brakes. I drove it once, took it back and refused to drive it ever again as I found it so awful to drive.

CABC said:
big wheels & narrow sidewalls. ride not important, they look great.
Agree with you on this one, especially with the terrible state of the roads these days. Add in "sports" suspension and the car becomes a chore to drive as you are constantly scanning the road for pot holes and bumps.

CABC said:
lane assist
yellow H&S stickers inside cars
Again I totally agree with you on both points. The problem is driving is a chore for most people and they cannot put their mobile phones down for more than five minutes. The standard of driving for a lot of people is terrible, hence the need for these aids.

kambites

67,656 posts

222 months

Friday 10th May
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Ken_Code said:
LuS1fer said:
Autos are boring and uninvolving and for as long as manual cars are made, I will continue to buy them.
McLarens and Ferraris are all automatics now, and don’t tend to be described as boring or uninvolving.
Compared to what? Obviously a modern Ferrari is going to be more immersive than a manual Vauxhall Mokka, but I don't think many people would dispute the fact that an F355 is more involving to drive than the modern 296. The modern car will be faster, more comfortable, more economical, more reliable, less rust prone,... but I struggle to see anyone calling it more involving.

Scootersp

3,207 posts

189 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
Modern autos and traction controls are so good that in most pure performance metrics they are better/faster than their manual equivalents, but absolutes like that aren't the be all and end all.

Manual values will be strong on some cars going forward just because they are so rare and EV's won't add any to the pool. I think even run of the mill cars might hold reasonably well at the bottom because of their simplicity/reliability. As they get older they'll have a niche/novelty value.

MC Bodge

21,753 posts

176 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
CABC said:
Did anyone mourn the following when they were superseded by something better?
tall gearing aimed at achieving better mpg test results
big brake servos needing 5mm pedal travel
big wheels & narrow sidewalls. ride not important, they look great.
lane assist
yellow H&S stickers inside cars

Everything new is better.
The gearing in our 6 speed 2014 1.0 Focus is comically high. I would like to drive one with a much closer ratio box

I also prefer a good ride to a harsh one.

Lane assist is awful and should not ever be necessary. I wonder how often it aids safety?

I like a bit of brake feels.

Ken_Code

758 posts

3 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
kambites said:
Compared to what? Obviously a modern Ferrari is going to be more immersive than a manual Vauxhall Mokka, but I don't think many people would dispute the fact that an F355 is more involving to drive than the modern 296. The modern car will be faster, more comfortable, more economical, more reliable, less rust prone,... but I struggle to see anyone calling it more involving.
Yes, I think modern Ferraris are more involving to drive than a 355.

I’m not sure why you find this hard to accept. I prefer automatics nowadays.

Two of my sports cars are manuals, and I’d prefer that they weren’t.

Gericho

125 posts

4 months

Friday 10th May
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Manual cars are for manual labourers.

Leon R

3,234 posts

97 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
Ken_Code said:
Yes, I think modern Ferraris are more involving to drive than a 355.

I’m not sure why you find this hard to accept. I prefer automatics nowadays.
I don’t think Kambites is struggling to accept your preferences.

The statement that a 296 is more involving than a 355 is an interesting one however.

Can you elaborate?

Ken_Code

758 posts

3 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
Leon R said:
I don’t think Kambites is struggling to accept your preferences.

The statement that a 296 is more involving than a 355 is an interesting one however.

Can you elaborate?
Elaborate on a statement that I didn’t make? What a bizarre and dishonest request.

Leon R

3,234 posts

97 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
Ken_Code said:
Leon R said:
I don’t think Kambites is struggling to accept your preferences.

The statement that a 296 is more involving than a 355 is an interesting one however.

Can you elaborate?
Elaborate on a statement that I didn’t make? What a bizarre and dishonest request.
Well you did quote a post that referenced the 296 and made the statement ‘Yes, I think modern Ferraris are more involving to drive than a 355.’

I guess you didn’t directly mention the 296 so I will ask it differently.

How is a modern Ferrari more involving to drive than a 355 for you?

Ken_Code

758 posts

3 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
Leon R said:
Well you did quote a post that referenced the 296 and made the statement ‘Yes, I think modern Ferraris are more involving to drive than a 355.’

I guess you didn’t directly mention the 296 so I will ask it differently.

How is a modern Ferrari more involving to drive than a 355 for you?
They feel more “keyed-in” to what the road surface is doing, because the far stiffer chassis allows the suspension to be better-tuned to what the car needs.

Turn-in is quicker, with less build-up if steering effort needed as the forces increase.

The far greater power and torque means that for each mm of throttle pedal movement you get a larger increase in output.

Now, I know that these are all subjective, but each of them for me leaves me feeling more connected to the car.

kambites

67,656 posts

222 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
Ken_Code said:
kambites said:
Compared to what? Obviously a modern Ferrari is going to be more immersive than a manual Vauxhall Mokka, but I don't think many people would dispute the fact that an F355 is more involving to drive than the modern 296. The modern car will be faster, more comfortable, more economical, more reliable, less rust prone,... but I struggle to see anyone calling it more involving.
Yes, I think modern Ferraris are more involving to drive than a 355.

I’m not sure why you find this hard to accept. I prefer automatics nowadays.

Two of my sports cars are manuals, and I’d prefer that they weren’t.
I don't find it hard to accept. I do find it extremely surprising but obviously it's a very subjective thing.

Roguexcess

157 posts

49 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
I once hated the SMG but now it’s the only auto in the fleet; it’s fun, involving, flawed. DCT are too good imo like most modern car you're more of a passenger then driver amazed by what the technology can do - at that point may as well get an EV

Mr Tidy

22,606 posts

128 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
CABC said:
Did anyone mourn the following when they were superseded by something better?
tall gearing aimed at achieving better mpg test results
big brake servos needing 5mm pedal travel
big wheels & narrow sidewalls. ride not important, they look great.
lane assist
yellow H&S stickers inside cars

Everything new is better.
Until it isn't!

I really don't want any of that rubbish on my cars.

Nor Adaptive cruise, keyless access, electric handbrakes thanks!

That may be why nothing modern really appeals to me - other than a GMA T33. laugh

Wacky Racer

38,237 posts

248 months

Friday 10th May
quotequote all
Why have a dog and bark yourself?

Auto's all the way.

(I never thought I would ever say that)