RE: BMW i8 | The Brave Pill
Discussion
Does that Mercedes really need a complete new battery pack or is that just what the garage has told him, the same way they will tell you that you need new discs and pads all round for the MoT even though you just replaced them all last month? More likely is that his battery is a little degraded but still works and they are trying it on.
The batteries in a BEV wear out each and every time you use them
The moving parts in an ICE wear out each and every time you use them
The IS no difference. Drive an ICE carefully (allow it to warm up, service it, don't hammer the gear shifts etc) and you'll like be able to have the car exceed it's design life by a significant margin. Drive it poorely (thrash it from cold, never service it, hammer every gear change etc) and chances are it will fail before it's design life
Really? with all the stories of 4-5 year old electric cars that are being scrapped as batteyr packs fail. due to replacement or updating costs.
One thing that the proud electric car owners never admit is that their car can cost 50-100% than an ICE car regardless of charging cost saving road tax blah blah blah.
Alot of love for the i3 on hear but OMG worst car i have driven, imho a horrible little car built out of recycled crap.
Max_Torque said:
Cobnapint said:
But even 'cheap' EV cars have expensive bits now. An expensive bit that is more or less 100% guaranteed to need replacement around it's 9th birthday.
This is going to adversely affect the resale value of cars approaching that age - big time.
Look at the story above, that was just a small battery pack in a MHEV. Imagine the cost of a full EV pack. And even then you've got to hope that pack can still be produced.
Again this ^^ total bobbins:This is going to adversely affect the resale value of cars approaching that age - big time.
Look at the story above, that was just a small battery pack in a MHEV. Imagine the cost of a full EV pack. And even then you've got to hope that pack can still be produced.
A typical ICE passenger car is explicitly designed for a life of 150,000 miles and 10 years
A typical BEV passenger car is explicitly designed for a life of 150,000 miles and 10 years
Lets be clear (again because people seem to be hard of thinking on this point)
The batteries in a BEV wear out each and every time you use them
The moving parts in an ICE wear out each and every time you use them
The IS no difference. Drive an ICE carefully (allow it to warm up, service it, don't hammer the gear shifts etc) and you'll like be able to have the car exceed it's design life by a significant margin. Drive it poorely (thrash it from cold, never service it, hammer every gear change etc) and chances are it will fail before it's design life
An BEV is no different
This is because both products are EXPLICILTY designed and engineered for an average life that is the same
A nine year old ICE with say 120,000 miles on the clock hass depreciated by a huge marging precisely because as it gets old (and gets closer too or exceeds it's design life) the probability of failure increases.
The big difference however is that the significant wearing part in a BEV (the battery cells) are very easy to monitor for State of Health, and being solid state components degrade non catastrophically and in a controlled manner. And ICE tends to keep working (although exhaust emissions and performance are often absolutely terrible) then suddenly and catastrophically fails, and that failure is very difficult to either predict or monitor. With a BEV, you can plug in a cheap scan tool and record precisely how worn your cells are. heck, most BEVs even show you on the dash!
And just because a battery is worn doesn'y mean it is useless. An ICE engine with knocking bearings or a failed head gasket is worthless, a low range BEV isn't. There are a huge number of people who drive small distances each and every day, and a BEV with a worn battery that still performs in every way as new other than its shorter range is valuable. And that's before we get to the value of batteries for second life projects. Not long ago, you could buy a £3k gen 1 leaf, and drive it into a lamp post at 20mph and the thing was still worth £2.5k just for the battery on ebay.......
Today, there are many aftermarket firms specialising in selling second hand engines and in refurbishing those engines etc. There is no reason they can't sell s/h cells or refurbish them. In fact, again being simple, solid state devices, it's far easy to refurbish a BEV battery than rebuild a complex modern ICE
With an engine it isn't.
Even if you HAD to replace the engine, it wouldn't cost anywhere near the cost of an EV battery.
On the subject of refurbishing a battery - are you having a laugh? What are you suggesting, slice each cell open and shot blasting the plates?
Once a battery is shot, it's shot.
Cobnapint said:
The point is this. The EV battery pack requiring replacement after 15 years is a certainty.
With an engine it isn't.
Even if you HAD to replace the engine, it wouldn't cost anywhere near the cost of an EV battery.
On the subject of refurbishing a battery - are you having a laugh? What are you suggesting, slice each cell open and shot blasting the plates?
Once a battery is shot, it's shot.
Strange, there are lots of battery reconditioning and cell replacement companies around?...With an engine it isn't.
Even if you HAD to replace the engine, it wouldn't cost anywhere near the cost of an EV battery.
On the subject of refurbishing a battery - are you having a laugh? What are you suggesting, slice each cell open and shot blasting the plates?
Once a battery is shot, it's shot.
Cobnapint said:
Mixing old and new cells together? A recipe for disaster surely.
I'm sure the efficiency of my ICEd vehicle doesn't decline by nearly 2% a year.
Until the promised land of 'new battery tech', better range and cheap electricity arrives, I think I'll keep it.
Hey man, I'm far from an expert, indeed, about as far from one as you can get, but looking online there are lots of companies offering reconditioning for ev batteries, so I am assuming it must be possible...? I'm sure the efficiency of my ICEd vehicle doesn't decline by nearly 2% a year.
Until the promised land of 'new battery tech', better range and cheap electricity arrives, I think I'll keep it.
Edit, and, thinking about it, the more people adopt EV the more innovation and investment will go into battery tech, including the repair or cheaper replacement of them. Economies of scale?
Edited by biggbn on Wednesday 4th May 20:18
PurpleTurtle said:
I mostly agree, but the big worry for those of us who are happy to run older, used cars is the current "requires a complete battery pack" issue.
If my head gasket or rod bearings go tits up on my E46 M3, I can replace those parts as distinct items items within the powertrain. The cars continues to live thereafter. Mine is only on 80k miles, so well within its design mileage, if not age.
With PHEVs/BEVs, there is a view (as exemplified by the chap in the link posted above where a Merc PHEV worth £12,750 was quoted £15,000 for an entire battery replacement) that is not the same comparison.
My view as a layman, and I'm happy to be educated on this, is that we're currently at a level of tech where "failed batteries" actually means "a few failed cells in a battery with some better than others". Technically, just the failed cells could be replaced to extend the life of the battery but because of the logistics involved manufacturers do not want to repair the battery - it is complete replacement or nothing.
Similar with my iPhones. I have had ones come to 'end of life' because they won't hold a charge, it's just a duff battery, the rest of the phone is fine. Buy a replacement battery off eBay and 15 minutes watching a YouTube how-to then allows me to replace that and extend the phone's life. OK, it's a little bit fiddly, but it's totally do-able for the inexperienced person who isn't a mobile phone technician. You cannot do the same with the battery in a BEV/PHEV currently, for safety and logistics reasons, so the ICE comparison given is a bit of a moot one.
If the main bearings fail in your BMW then BMW already won't fix that! They will simply fit a "short engine". This is because no main dealer can properly refurbish a very complex modern ICE to a suitable level of quality, as so they are mearly "fitters". A non OE company will refurbish an old failed ICE, but the quality is lets say rather varriable precisely because of the complexity of the engine etcIf my head gasket or rod bearings go tits up on my E46 M3, I can replace those parts as distinct items items within the powertrain. The cars continues to live thereafter. Mine is only on 80k miles, so well within its design mileage, if not age.
With PHEVs/BEVs, there is a view (as exemplified by the chap in the link posted above where a Merc PHEV worth £12,750 was quoted £15,000 for an entire battery replacement) that is not the same comparison.
My view as a layman, and I'm happy to be educated on this, is that we're currently at a level of tech where "failed batteries" actually means "a few failed cells in a battery with some better than others". Technically, just the failed cells could be replaced to extend the life of the battery but because of the logistics involved manufacturers do not want to repair the battery - it is complete replacement or nothing.
Similar with my iPhones. I have had ones come to 'end of life' because they won't hold a charge, it's just a duff battery, the rest of the phone is fine. Buy a replacement battery off eBay and 15 minutes watching a YouTube how-to then allows me to replace that and extend the phone's life. OK, it's a little bit fiddly, but it's totally do-able for the inexperienced person who isn't a mobile phone technician. You cannot do the same with the battery in a BEV/PHEV currently, for safety and logistics reasons, so the ICE comparison given is a bit of a moot one.
A battery is actually really very simple. Already companies exist who will repair / refurbish and replace battery packs, modules and cells. They will become more common as demand for these services increases
And the good news is that as a customer you can measure just how good their work was because it's very easy to monitor the performance and helath of a battery (compared to monitoring the performance and robustness of a complex ICE).
There is no direct reason you can't change the battery in a car if you can change the battery in a phone. Yes, precautions are required because the car is operating at a potentially leathal voltage, but soon those precautions (which are not actually difficult or particularly expensive compared to those required to rebuild an modern ICE) will become commin place.
The intrinsic simplicity of a BEV is what drives all these factors
garypotter said:
Really? with all the stories of 4-5 year old electric cars that are being scrapped as batteyr packs fail. due to replacement or updating costs.
Stories. are just that, stories. Do know know the actual statistics? (i bet you don't.......)garypotter said:
Alot of love for the i3 on hear but OMG worst car i have driven, imho a horrible little car built out of recycled crap.
Wow with that sort of inciteful comment you should probably get a job as a host of Top Gear...... ;-)Cobnapint said:
Whenever I see one of these on the road they don't make me think 'wow, nice car mate', I think 'no thanks' or words to that effect.
When these first came out they were absolutely stunning but that seemed to wear off relatively quickly.
On the battery pack front, we are repeatedly told that battery prices are coming down. Well they might be for the manufacturers, but if you want to replace even a MHEV battery pack as an individual you've got to be ready to feel the blood draining from your face when you're told what the bill is. And that's before Solid State batteries hit the scene.
Because of this, EVs will surely depreciate like a stone after about 5 to 6 years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.leicestermercury....
Plenty of hybrid batteries (pulled out of used cars) for the Mercedes E class cited in the article available for about £1,000 When these first came out they were absolutely stunning but that seemed to wear off relatively quickly.
On the battery pack front, we are repeatedly told that battery prices are coming down. Well they might be for the manufacturers, but if you want to replace even a MHEV battery pack as an individual you've got to be ready to feel the blood draining from your face when you're told what the bill is. And that's before Solid State batteries hit the scene.
Because of this, EVs will surely depreciate like a stone after about 5 to 6 years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.leicestermercury....
So much fear mongering going on when it comes to cars that are electrified in any way. It's complete hysteria.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313971005311
The i8 was a brave and advanced design from BMW, who have since completely lost the EV plot, by offering 2200Kg rehashes of their ICE cars. That said, the massive hidden complexity of the i8 (and also that of the lesser i3) make it a "Main Dealer only" service & fix. Take a look at YouTube for a cringeworthy account of 4 Main Dealers trying to fix an overheating problem on an i8... New engine was the answer. Probably.
Any buyer would be faced with these bills, so it really is a roulette brave pill! I was looking seriously at them because of the looks, performamce and eco credentials, but ended up buying an Aston Vantage for the more predictable running costs (yes the mechanical refurb costs have been horendous but the end result is truely fabulous)!
Any buyer would be faced with these bills, so it really is a roulette brave pill! I was looking seriously at them because of the looks, performamce and eco credentials, but ended up buying an Aston Vantage for the more predictable running costs (yes the mechanical refurb costs have been horendous but the end result is truely fabulous)!
jamespink said:
The i8 was a brave and advanced design from BMW, who have since completely lost the EV plot, by offering 2200Kg rehashes of their ICE cars. That said, the massive hidden complexity of the i8 (and also that of the lesser i3) make it a "Main Dealer only" service & fix. Take a look at YouTube for a cringeworthy account of 4 Main Dealers trying to fix an overheating problem on an i8... New engine was the answer. Probably.
Any buyer would be faced with these bills, so it really is a roulette brave pill! I was looking seriously at them because of the looks, performamce and eco credentials, but ended up buying an Aston Vantage for the more predictable running costs (yes the mechanical refurb costs have been horendous but the end result is truely fabulous)!
You can surely hedge against the large bills (possibly with the exception of the battery pack) with the extended warranty though?Any buyer would be faced with these bills, so it really is a roulette brave pill! I was looking seriously at them because of the looks, performamce and eco credentials, but ended up buying an Aston Vantage for the more predictable running costs (yes the mechanical refurb costs have been horendous but the end result is truely fabulous)!
When I first had my BMW i8 ( I bought an ex demonstrator for a fraction over list) the range after being charged on a warm day with the air con off was 19 miles ( never saw the acclaimed 21)
With 83,500 I get 16 on a warm day with the air con off
On a long drive up from Kent to Newcastle I get around 42MPG and bizarrely on the way down 45MPG in Eco Pro with air con on and around a further 3MPG with the air con off - the journey is some 325 miles and playing around with the fuel consumption is a way to pass the time
It was never really a £105k car, immediately after idiots like me who had to have one had satisfied their desire the true cost was nearer £80k and the deprecation based on that figure showed it to have a healthy demand such that with say 50,000 miles on the clock a six-year-old one would achieve around £45k today - mine with 83,500 is probably worth at most £32k on a good day
If you are to enjoy these types of car you have to have the resources to pay for a one off expenditure which might be as much as £10k - when I was young I bought high-end cars and I could not afford the potential of a large bill and it dented my enjoyment of such car as there was always the worry about a huge bill - owning a lotus excel SA I recall and having the engine seize was no fun and any pleasure from owning such a car evaporated instantly
An BMW i8 is a sports car, it is not a super car. It's an efficient car and has an enormous amount of style, it was very exciting when it first came out but now is appearing to be dated - but I love it !
With 83,500 I get 16 on a warm day with the air con off
On a long drive up from Kent to Newcastle I get around 42MPG and bizarrely on the way down 45MPG in Eco Pro with air con on and around a further 3MPG with the air con off - the journey is some 325 miles and playing around with the fuel consumption is a way to pass the time
It was never really a £105k car, immediately after idiots like me who had to have one had satisfied their desire the true cost was nearer £80k and the deprecation based on that figure showed it to have a healthy demand such that with say 50,000 miles on the clock a six-year-old one would achieve around £45k today - mine with 83,500 is probably worth at most £32k on a good day
If you are to enjoy these types of car you have to have the resources to pay for a one off expenditure which might be as much as £10k - when I was young I bought high-end cars and I could not afford the potential of a large bill and it dented my enjoyment of such car as there was always the worry about a huge bill - owning a lotus excel SA I recall and having the engine seize was no fun and any pleasure from owning such a car evaporated instantly
An BMW i8 is a sports car, it is not a super car. It's an efficient car and has an enormous amount of style, it was very exciting when it first came out but now is appearing to be dated - but I love it !
Max_Torque said:
PurpleTurtle said:
I mostly agree, but the big worry for those of us who are happy to run older, used cars is the current "requires a complete battery pack" issue.
If my head gasket or rod bearings go tits up on my E46 M3, I can replace those parts as distinct items items within the powertrain. The cars continues to live thereafter. Mine is only on 80k miles, so well within its design mileage, if not age.
With PHEVs/BEVs, there is a view (as exemplified by the chap in the link posted above where a Merc PHEV worth £12,750 was quoted £15,000 for an entire battery replacement) that is not the same comparison.
My view as a layman, and I'm happy to be educated on this, is that we're currently at a level of tech where "failed batteries" actually means "a few failed cells in a battery with some better than others". Technically, just the failed cells could be replaced to extend the life of the battery but because of the logistics involved manufacturers do not want to repair the battery - it is complete replacement or nothing.
Similar with my iPhones. I have had ones come to 'end of life' because they won't hold a charge, it's just a duff battery, the rest of the phone is fine. Buy a replacement battery off eBay and 15 minutes watching a YouTube how-to then allows me to replace that and extend the phone's life. OK, it's a little bit fiddly, but it's totally do-able for the inexperienced person who isn't a mobile phone technician. You cannot do the same with the battery in a BEV/PHEV currently, for safety and logistics reasons, so the ICE comparison given is a bit of a moot one.
If the main bearings fail in your BMW then BMW already won't fix that! They will simply fit a "short engine". This is because no main dealer can properly refurbish a very complex modern ICE to a suitable level of quality, as so they are mearly "fitters". A non OE company will refurbish an old failed ICE, but the quality is lets say rather varriable precisely because of the complexity of the engine etcIf my head gasket or rod bearings go tits up on my E46 M3, I can replace those parts as distinct items items within the powertrain. The cars continues to live thereafter. Mine is only on 80k miles, so well within its design mileage, if not age.
With PHEVs/BEVs, there is a view (as exemplified by the chap in the link posted above where a Merc PHEV worth £12,750 was quoted £15,000 for an entire battery replacement) that is not the same comparison.
My view as a layman, and I'm happy to be educated on this, is that we're currently at a level of tech where "failed batteries" actually means "a few failed cells in a battery with some better than others". Technically, just the failed cells could be replaced to extend the life of the battery but because of the logistics involved manufacturers do not want to repair the battery - it is complete replacement or nothing.
Similar with my iPhones. I have had ones come to 'end of life' because they won't hold a charge, it's just a duff battery, the rest of the phone is fine. Buy a replacement battery off eBay and 15 minutes watching a YouTube how-to then allows me to replace that and extend the phone's life. OK, it's a little bit fiddly, but it's totally do-able for the inexperienced person who isn't a mobile phone technician. You cannot do the same with the battery in a BEV/PHEV currently, for safety and logistics reasons, so the ICE comparison given is a bit of a moot one.
A battery is actually really very simple. Already companies exist who will repair / refurbish and replace battery packs, modules and cells. They will become more common as demand for these services increases
And the good news is that as a customer you can measure just how good their work was because it's very easy to monitor the performance and helath of a battery (compared to monitoring the performance and robustness of a complex ICE).
There is no direct reason you can't change the battery in a car if you can change the battery in a phone. Yes, precautions are required because the car is operating at a potentially leathal voltage, but soon those precautions (which are not actually difficult or particularly expensive compared to those required to rebuild an modern ICE) will become commin place.
The intrinsic simplicity of a BEV is what drives all these factors
DanL said:
jamespink said:
The i8 was a brave and advanced design from BMW, who have since completely lost the EV plot, by offering 2200Kg rehashes of their ICE cars. That said, the massive hidden complexity of the i8 (and also that of the lesser i3) make it a "Main Dealer only" service & fix. Take a look at YouTube for a cringeworthy account of 4 Main Dealers trying to fix an overheating problem on an i8... New engine was the answer. Probably.
Any buyer would be faced with these bills, so it really is a roulette brave pill! I was looking seriously at them because of the looks, performamce and eco credentials, but ended up buying an Aston Vantage for the more predictable running costs (yes the mechanical refurb costs have been horendous but the end result is truely fabulous)!
You can surely hedge against the large bills (possibly with the exception of the battery pack) with the extended warranty though?Any buyer would be faced with these bills, so it really is a roulette brave pill! I was looking seriously at them because of the looks, performamce and eco credentials, but ended up buying an Aston Vantage for the more predictable running costs (yes the mechanical refurb costs have been horendous but the end result is truely fabulous)!
Max_Torque said:
PurpleTurtle said:
I mostly agree, but the big worry for those of us who are happy to run older, used cars is the current "requires a complete battery pack" issue.
If my head gasket or rod bearings go tits up on my E46 M3, I can replace those parts as distinct items items within the powertrain. The cars continues to live thereafter. Mine is only on 80k miles, so well within its design mileage, if not age.
With PHEVs/BEVs, there is a view (as exemplified by the chap in the link posted above where a Merc PHEV worth £12,750 was quoted £15,000 for an entire battery replacement) that is not the same comparison.
My view as a layman, and I'm happy to be educated on this, is that we're currently at a level of tech where "failed batteries" actually means "a few failed cells in a battery with some better than others". Technically, just the failed cells could be replaced to extend the life of the battery but because of the logistics involved manufacturers do not want to repair the battery - it is complete replacement or nothing.
Similar with my iPhones. I have had ones come to 'end of life' because they won't hold a charge, it's just a duff battery, the rest of the phone is fine. Buy a replacement battery off eBay and 15 minutes watching a YouTube how-to then allows me to replace that and extend the phone's life. OK, it's a little bit fiddly, but it's totally do-able for the inexperienced person who isn't a mobile phone technician. You cannot do the same with the battery in a BEV/PHEV currently, for safety and logistics reasons, so the ICE comparison given is a bit of a moot one.
If the main bearings fail in your BMW then BMW already won't fix that! They will simply fit a "short engine". This is because no main dealer can properly refurbish a very complex modern ICE to a suitable level of quality, as so they are mearly "fitters". A non OE company will refurbish an old failed ICE, but the quality is lets say rather varriable precisely because of the complexity of the engine etcIf my head gasket or rod bearings go tits up on my E46 M3, I can replace those parts as distinct items items within the powertrain. The cars continues to live thereafter. Mine is only on 80k miles, so well within its design mileage, if not age.
With PHEVs/BEVs, there is a view (as exemplified by the chap in the link posted above where a Merc PHEV worth £12,750 was quoted £15,000 for an entire battery replacement) that is not the same comparison.
My view as a layman, and I'm happy to be educated on this, is that we're currently at a level of tech where "failed batteries" actually means "a few failed cells in a battery with some better than others". Technically, just the failed cells could be replaced to extend the life of the battery but because of the logistics involved manufacturers do not want to repair the battery - it is complete replacement or nothing.
Similar with my iPhones. I have had ones come to 'end of life' because they won't hold a charge, it's just a duff battery, the rest of the phone is fine. Buy a replacement battery off eBay and 15 minutes watching a YouTube how-to then allows me to replace that and extend the phone's life. OK, it's a little bit fiddly, but it's totally do-able for the inexperienced person who isn't a mobile phone technician. You cannot do the same with the battery in a BEV/PHEV currently, for safety and logistics reasons, so the ICE comparison given is a bit of a moot one.
A battery is actually really very simple. Already companies exist who will repair / refurbish and replace battery packs, modules and cells. They will become more common as demand for these services increases
And the good news is that as a customer you can measure just how good their work was because it's very easy to monitor the performance and helath of a battery (compared to monitoring the performance and robustness of a complex ICE).
There is no direct reason you can't change the battery in a car if you can change the battery in a phone. Yes, precautions are required because the car is operating at a potentially leathal voltage, but soon those precautions (which are not actually difficult or particularly expensive compared to those required to rebuild an modern ICE) will become commin place.
The intrinsic simplicity of a BEV is what drives all these factors
Edited by fido on Thursday 5th May 16:31
biggbn said:
DanL said:
jamespink said:
The i8 was a brave and advanced design from BMW, who have since completely lost the EV plot, by offering 2200Kg rehashes of their ICE cars. That said, the massive hidden complexity of the i8 (and also that of the lesser i3) make it a "Main Dealer only" service & fix. Take a look at YouTube for a cringeworthy account of 4 Main Dealers trying to fix an overheating problem on an i8... New engine was the answer. Probably.
Any buyer would be faced with these bills, so it really is a roulette brave pill! I was looking seriously at them because of the looks, performamce and eco credentials, but ended up buying an Aston Vantage for the more predictable running costs (yes the mechanical refurb costs have been horendous but the end result is truely fabulous)!
You can surely hedge against the large bills (possibly with the exception of the battery pack) with the extended warranty though?Any buyer would be faced with these bills, so it really is a roulette brave pill! I was looking seriously at them because of the looks, performamce and eco credentials, but ended up buying an Aston Vantage for the more predictable running costs (yes the mechanical refurb costs have been horendous but the end result is truely fabulous)!
biggbn said:
blearyeyedboy said:
As brave as making a mug of tea.
These are near the bottom of the market and are a shoe-in for "future classic" status.
I think these are inspired and hopefully there'll be a future all-electric successor one day.
Wonder what the bottom of the market will be for these? Might end up a relatively affordable 'supercar' for the 'ordinary' enthusiast? .....I hope so anyway!! These are near the bottom of the market and are a shoe-in for "future classic" status.
I think these are inspired and hopefully there'll be a future all-electric successor one day.
JamesyBoy1975 said:
from 57,000-67,000 EUR there are only 3 available across whole Europe (on AutoScount.de) that are less than 70,000 EUR, UK (and US) prices seem to be low compared to continental Europe. The 56,000 EUR (48,500) one is sitting on 200,000km.
In my experience that applies to every car on the road and not specific to the i8. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff