The 'Bladerunners' are right
Discussion
Have you heard of the Blade Runners? They're the chaps cutting down the ULEZ cameras in London.
I tend to think of myself as somebody who has a reasonable awareness of the things that are happening in politics and the things that are happening in the world of motoring. I used to live in London as well. At the time that the second Wrath of Kahn began for unsuspecting Londoners.
If you believe that democracy does in many ways prevent violence and criminality in our civil societies you will not be surprised to see this substantial effort by a group tagging themselves as the Blade Runners. I dunno quite what they mean with that name, but I guess the press will be amplifying it for sensational effect.
The point is, nobody in all seriousness really asked Londoners if they wanted an ANPR network monitoring every journey for the purposes of fining them for owning vehicles they were told to buy not 10 years prior.
I know they're criminals... but I think they're right!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12404209/...
I tend to think of myself as somebody who has a reasonable awareness of the things that are happening in politics and the things that are happening in the world of motoring. I used to live in London as well. At the time that the second Wrath of Kahn began for unsuspecting Londoners.
If you believe that democracy does in many ways prevent violence and criminality in our civil societies you will not be surprised to see this substantial effort by a group tagging themselves as the Blade Runners. I dunno quite what they mean with that name, but I guess the press will be amplifying it for sensational effect.
The point is, nobody in all seriousness really asked Londoners if they wanted an ANPR network monitoring every journey for the purposes of fining them for owning vehicles they were told to buy not 10 years prior.
I know they're criminals... but I think they're right!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12404209/...
CheesecakeRunner said:
It's a way of saying it... but it's hard to argue that the timing for introducing ULEZ is worthwhile given that the vehicles it targets are in the last 3rd of their service for the majority of their owners and will be shuffling off to the scrapyard in the sky soon enough anyway. Furthermore...
With any argument which says "all these things have to be done to lower pollution" so is with ULEZ that by creating the bureaucracy, buying and installing a ton of cameras and computer equipment and paying people to operate them you are creating pollution. All the effort put into running the scheme (effort = pollution) must be subtracted from the diminishing difference between compliant and non-compliant vehicles. i.e. for ever camera erected Londoners could make 3000 journeys in a non-compliant vehicle and we'd still be breaking even.
That's not the point I'm making though. It just seems to me like they didn't properly ask people about this and now we've got real vigilantes hacking down cameras. Quelle surprise.
Pickle_Party_247 said:
Morons committing vandalism and wasting public money. Anyone kicking off about ULEZ charges is a complete child in any reasonable person's book. What's next, vandalising DVSA offices because they charge VED?
Kicking off about the lack of democratic accountability... infinitely more substantial than the issue of paying the charge itself. I quite like the idea of being forced to buy an old petrol fuelled car to avoid a fine from the mayor. smn159 said:
Rise up Sheeple!
Is there a list of public infrastructure that it's OK to destroy? There's a pedestrian crossing on my way to work that slows me down sometimes. I expect that Khan installed it personally...
Arguably it's not public infrastructure if the means by which it came into being aren't of the people. Is there a list of public infrastructure that it's OK to destroy? There's a pedestrian crossing on my way to work that slows me down sometimes. I expect that Khan installed it personally...
smn159 said:
ingenieur said:
Arguably it's not public infrastructure if the means by which it came into being aren't of the people.
Well it was installed by an elected authority and it's expansion was backed by an elected government, so not sure what you mean by thatIf people really were asked they would have said 'no'. Supposedly when they got a load of negative responses to their consultations the results were thrown in the bin.
The Uxbridge byelection had in some ways taken the form of a proxy vote on ULEZ and caused Labour to lose a seat they thought they had a chance of winning. Sir Kier Starmer is straddling his fence and pouring cold water on it. Various councils have mounted legal challenges against it.
I don't think you can seriously claim that there's nothing to see here.
C5_Steve said:
Yeah, remember when speed cameras were first introduced and people were doing the same to them? How long did that last......
What do you mean 'how long did that last' ? They're still being attacked: https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/crime/2022/12/...
Faust66 said:
Pickle_Party_247 said:
Morons committing vandalism and wasting public money. Anyone kicking off about ULEZ charges is a complete child in any reasonable person's book. What's next, vandalising DVSA offices because they charge VED?
What happened to new users having to wait a year/make 1000 posts before being allowed to venture in to NP&E? smn159 said:
ingenieur said:
smn159 said:
ingenieur said:
Arguably it's not public infrastructure if the means by which it came into being aren't of the people.
Well it was installed by an elected authority and it's expansion was backed by an elected government, so not sure what you mean by thatIf people really were asked they would have said 'no'. Supposedly when they got a load of negative responses to their consultations the results were thrown in the bin.
The Uxbridge byelection had in some ways taken the form of a proxy vote on ULEZ and caused Labour to lose a seat they thought they had a chance of winning. Sir Kier Starmer is straddling his fence and pouring cold water on it. Various councils have mounted legal challenges against it.
I don't think you can seriously claim that there's nothing to see here.
https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/17453762.sh...
Londoners were in no doubt that a vote for Khan was a vote to expand ULEZ.
Or does 'the will of the people' only count when it suits?
Sean Bailey was a terrible candidate, the charisma of an old mid-sized Mitsubishi.
I think with issues of this nature where something really significant is going to happen there is a tendency for British public to get hoodwinked into going along with it because really they're used to nothing really changing so it is a surprise when issues like this come up.
Brexit is a perfect example of this. People voted time after time for political parties, both Labour and Conservative who brought us tighter and tighter into the European Union to the point where I sovereignty had all but completely disappeared.
You could use the same defence but in the end the will of the people was at odds with what the officials and politicians were doing. They knew this as they always dressed it up as a financial benefit because they knew that was an easy sell to voters.
valiant said:
I seem to have missed these vigilantes for justice taking down cameras when the ulez was expanded to the North/South circular borders.
Maybe their mums told them not venture too far from home then…
Or maybe people were generally okay with the anti-car sentiment inside the ring roads where public transport is passable but don't stand for it so much in areas more reliant on mechanised personal transport. Maybe their mums told them not venture too far from home then…
Gareth79 said:
smn159 said:
JagLover said:
smn159 said:
Is there a list of public infrastructure that it's OK to destroy? .
Those parts that have been installed to oppress the people rather than serve them. Do you expect your children to be asking what you did in the great Gammon uprising in years to come?
Being monitored, everyone.. not just those with non-compliant vehicles on every drive you take in London straddles a breaking point. I think it's a big step from having a smattering of cameras dotted about, on high streets in particular. From that to a situation where you create a little log file on Kahn's computer every time you leave your house is a bit too much.
grumbledoak said:
Seems like an appropriate response to the so called democracy we live under. If people can support Just Stop Oil blocking roads and those SUV tyre deflator people, I don't see why others cannot support this.
It's worrying when you put it like that. If 10% of our democratic activities are taking place on the streets with a physical overriding of the ballot box it's indicative of a larger problem! Harji said:
Whats the odds these idiots are part of a group that own a ULEZ compliant vehicle, dont understand its implementation, beleive every vehicle is to be charged (yes, some Tesla owners in Uxbridge though that)beleive the 15 min city is ruse to lock you in, and bascially beleive all the crap that appears on Nextdoor ?
The pandemic was only 2 or 3 years ago and you've already forgotten... Hill92 said:
smn159 said:
ingenieur said:
Arguably it's not public infrastructure if the means by which it came into being aren't of the people.
Well it was installed by an elected authority and it's expansion was backed by an elected government, so not sure what you mean by thatWith the exception of a handful of referendums over the year, we do not practice direct democracy (and even the referendums were merely advisory).
We, like most of the western world, live in a representative democracy: we elect MPs, councillors and in some areas Mayors to debate, consider and make decisions on our behalf. Manifestos are not and cannot ever be legal commitments or limitations on the decisions of elected representatives, not least because compromise is necessary and healthy.
Getragdogleg said:
Pickle_Party_247 said:
Morons committing vandalism and wasting public money. Anyone kicking off about ULEZ charges is a complete child in any reasonable person's book. What's next, vandalising DVSA offices because they charge VED?
How the hell is this user posting in NP&E with two posts and a new account ?ETA: oh, it was moved from GG...
Its still a poor argument, Anyone not understanding the ULEZ is a gateway to pay per mile charges is naïve or part of the problem.
Edited by Getragdogleg on Monday 14th August 19:39
Grumps. said:
Panamax said:
ingenieur said:
From that to a situation where you create a little log file on Kahn's computer every time you leave your house is a bit too much.
Agreed, but that's the reality of UK today. The only people the system can't track are the ones who stick two two fingers up at any sort of society - in other words the ones who are the biggest concern.Meanwhile normal citizens leave an indelible trail of mobile phone signal, credit card transactions and number plate recognition.
dundarach said:
Pickle_Party_247 said:
Morons committing vandalism and wasting public money. Anyone kicking off about ULEZ charges is a complete child in any reasonable person's book. What's next, vandalising DVSA offices because they charge VED?
Agreed, fking idiotsRather than spunking your tiny loads over other wkers like this, why not get involved in local politics and try and change something.
Pathetic!
You can change things in politics but if you look at something like Brexit as a gauge for how much effort it takes you can see why politicians not listening and doing virtually the opposite of what the electorate wants and doubling-down on negative policies that nobody asked for results in vigilantism.
To overturn the actions of politicians of the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s and the 2000s took 25 years by parties like UKIP, millions of pounds in donations, cost thousands of people their careers, millions of people were branded racists, permeant fractures in countless numbers of family homes all across the country such was the division it caused. Then the court cases, resignation of prime ministers and probably the loss of life perhaps of Jo Cox and other many lesser known individuals all because they wanted to do what they wanted to do and didn't care what people thought.
It's no way to run a country.
ULEZ is on a lesser scale, far smaller but it has the very same flavour. It's no surprise Kahn is an arch remainer.
smn159 said:
ingenieur said:
dundarach said:
Pickle_Party_247 said:
Morons committing vandalism and wasting public money. Anyone kicking off about ULEZ charges is a complete child in any reasonable person's book. What's next, vandalising DVSA offices because they charge VED?
Agreed, fking idiotsRather than spunking your tiny loads over other wkers like this, why not get involved in local politics and try and change something.
Pathetic!
You can change things in politics but if you look at something like Brexit as a gauge for how much effort it takes you can see why politicians not listening and doing virtually the opposite of what the electorate wants and doubling-down on negative policies that nobody asked for results in vigilantism.
To overturn the actions of politicians of the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s and the 2000s took 25 years by parties like UKIP, millions of pounds in donations, cost thousands of people their careers, millions of people were branded racists, permeant fractures in countless numbers of family homes all across the country such was the division it caused. Then the court cases, resignation of prime ministers and probably the loss of life perhaps of Jo Cox and other many lesser known individuals all because they wanted to do what they wanted to do and didn't care what people thought.
It's no way to run a country.
ULEZ is on a lesser scale, far smaller but it has the very same flavour. It's no surprise Kahn is an arch remainer.
'Delusional' would be if none of that happened and if people were not challenging ULEZ... It's a comparison between Brexit and ULEZ. One already happened that's a fact, the other is playing out currently. I fail to see any 'delusion'
Lotobear said:
ingenieur said:
smn159 said:
ingenieur said:
dundarach said:
Pickle_Party_247 said:
Morons committing vandalism and wasting public money. Anyone kicking off about ULEZ charges is a complete child in any reasonable person's book. What's next, vandalising DVSA offices because they charge VED?
Agreed, fking idiotsRather than spunking your tiny loads over other wkers like this, why not get involved in local politics and try and change something.
Pathetic!
You can change things in politics but if you look at something like Brexit as a gauge for how much effort it takes you can see why politicians not listening and doing virtually the opposite of what the electorate wants and doubling-down on negative policies that nobody asked for results in vigilantism.
To overturn the actions of politicians of the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s and the 2000s took 25 years by parties like UKIP, millions of pounds in donations, cost thousands of people their careers, millions of people were branded racists, permeant fractures in countless numbers of family homes all across the country such was the division it caused. Then the court cases, resignation of prime ministers and probably the loss of life perhaps of Jo Cox and other many lesser known individuals all because they wanted to do what they wanted to do and didn't care what people thought.
It's no way to run a country.
ULEZ is on a lesser scale, far smaller but it has the very same flavour. It's no surprise Kahn is an arch remainer.
'Delusional' would be if none of that happened and if people were not challenging ULEZ... It's a comparison between Brexit and ULEZ. One already happened that's a fact, the other is playing out currently. I fail to see any 'delusion'
sugerbear said:
ingenieur said:
smn159 said:
ingenieur said:
dundarach said:
Pickle_Party_247 said:
Morons committing vandalism and wasting public money. Anyone kicking off about ULEZ charges is a complete child in any reasonable person's book. What's next, vandalising DVSA offices because they charge VED?
Agreed, fking idiotsRather than spunking your tiny loads over other wkers like this, why not get involved in local politics and try and change something.
Pathetic!
You can change things in politics but if you look at something like Brexit as a gauge for how much effort it takes you can see why politicians not listening and doing virtually the opposite of what the electorate wants and doubling-down on negative policies that nobody asked for results in vigilantism.
To overturn the actions of politicians of the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s and the 2000s took 25 years by parties like UKIP, millions of pounds in donations, cost thousands of people their careers, millions of people were branded racists, permeant fractures in countless numbers of family homes all across the country such was the division it caused. Then the court cases, resignation of prime ministers and probably the loss of life perhaps of Jo Cox and other many lesser known individuals all because they wanted to do what they wanted to do and didn't care what people thought.
It's no way to run a country.
ULEZ is on a lesser scale, far smaller but it has the very same flavour. It's no surprise Kahn is an arch remainer.
'Delusional' would be if none of that happened and if people were not challenging ULEZ... It's a comparison between Brexit and ULEZ. One already happened that's a fact, the other is playing out currently. I fail to see any 'delusion'
That is the delusional part. Makes you sound as if everything you dont like (i.e ULEZ) is a remainer plot to get revenge for brexit.
London voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.
The fact that Kahn is an arch remainer in this context correlates with the behaviour of the establishment and the remain campaign of the time of course... and now as if he hasn't learnt from the drubbing in 2016 wants to set himself against the people in the same way once again. With it being a much simpler issue it's less likely technocratic ULEZ supporters will be anywhere near as effective as remainers were at trying to stave off brexit. Sir Kier Starmer is pooing his pants.
phil1979 said:
ULEZ doesn't affect me, but I'm pleased someone is taking action on this. Just wait.... sooner or later these cameras will target another type of car that's fallen out of favour for whatever reason... Cobalt in your EV mined from the wrong country???... that'll be 10 quid sir for crossing this camera.
As someone pointed out earlier... ULEZ does not directly effect you if you're not in London but if you ever want to drive to London and have a non-compliant vehicle you will have to pay. That's taxation without representation as you didn't get a vote on it and it's effectively a tax. I have paid the full £27.00 whatever it costs to drive my old London taxi into London last year... it's a lot of money in charges for a single drive into the capital. The fact that ULEZ applies to vehicles which are historic but not old enough to be classed as such is a big mistake. It forces a lot of people to sell younger classic cars and that's not what the policy is designed to do. The result of this oversight is well of resentment built up in the community of Londoners who are car enthusiasts - i.e. millions of voters. For example, if you have an old Subaru Impreza turbo from 1994... it won't be classed as historic for another 15-odd years so in the meantime you cannot drive it without having to pay £12.50.
All other wrongs aside... it's electoral suicide
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff