GT3 PDK. Probably.
Discussion
Drove a 991 Cab PDK today (first time in a PDK).
Sport Plus was (to me) overly aggressive, normal auto was, um, ......ok.
'Manual' was used for about 30 seconds and then the novelty wore off.
Great car, but I'm undecided on the PDK (although the blips were nice
)
It just seems so convoluted - do I leave it in auto, do I use manual, what about the paddles, shall I have it in sport/plus mode..... etc, etc?
Just seems like so much to do and think about, just to drive a car.
Sport Plus was (to me) overly aggressive, normal auto was, um, ......ok.
'Manual' was used for about 30 seconds and then the novelty wore off.
Great car, but I'm undecided on the PDK (although the blips were nice
)It just seems so convoluted - do I leave it in auto, do I use manual, what about the paddles, shall I have it in sport/plus mode..... etc, etc?
Just seems like so much to do and think about, just to drive a car.
Edited by Zyp on Tuesday 29th May 16:50
I'm in favour of there being a PDK option for the car, as it makes it more enticing as a daily driver (in the urban jungle). I'm as big a fan of manuals as the next petrolhead, but a week of commuting in a mix of heavy urban traffic/semi-rural is enough for the fun to be drained out of it.
I've driven quite a few 997 Turbos (and Turbo S's) with PDK and was really impressed with the system. If I wanted to use my 911 every day, I wouldn't hesitate to go for a PDK, even tho it's a compromise.
I've driven quite a few 997 Turbos (and Turbo S's) with PDK and was really impressed with the system. If I wanted to use my 911 every day, I wouldn't hesitate to go for a PDK, even tho it's a compromise.
betternotbigger said:
If you were developing the new GT3 no doubt you'd be acutely conscious of the fear amongst fans that the manual transmission might have breathed its last. Would you be able to resist sending a manual car out into testing fitted with a PDK steering wheel? The temptation must be great...
I was going to write virtually the same thing! That would be brilliant if they did just stick fake paddles on a manual car - it would prove if nothing else that Porsche have a sense of humour. Although they have proved this before: http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster-chat/14067-...
It would also prove that Matthias Mueller wasn't telling "porkies" (no pun intended) when he stated recently that the 991 GT3 would be MANUAL only!
tbh, i dont see a problem with a PDK 991 GT3 has so long as its integrated well and functions well. PDK type trans are the future of motoring, and simultaneously speed up driving while protecting the equipment. if the choice is between PDK and the current 7 speed MT then PDK is hands down the better choice.
my pleasure from driving doesnt come from heel and toe, this is a necessary function of having a manual gearbox and not the reason i get into a car though i accept that for others it may be something that features much higher up their list. to those drivers i challenge you to experience cracking through the gearbox on a complex section flat out in a challenge stradale or scuderia and not finish thinking heel and toe may not be the be all and end all you thought.
what has my focus on the upcoming car is the quality of the components both in materials and design, and in an attempt to keep this on topic i'll limit this to the durability and performance of whatever gearbox they choose to use.
the outgoing 997 gearboxes that featured on the non GT3 cars, made by aisin lacked durability, rebuildability and any tuning options when used for anything more than road driving. they are not a high performance gearbox in any way, especially when compared to the race designed and proven unit the GT3s were fittted with.
with a new gearbox coming along, what interests me is whether porsche have designed it for actual performance or to cut costs. theres a real possibility that this new GT3 will look rather shabby once you start looking at the details behind the incredible performance figures it will no doubt give. lets hope not. If it just gets the current ZF designed trans then only time will tell how this holds up at the performance sharp end.
i know ive said this before but that BS from August Achleitner over the electric steering is just embrassing. "all our race drivers prefer it". porsche dont make a race car with it, every single one they make, including the current $500,000 2012 RSR uses electro hydraulic (ie regular power steering but with an electric pump rather than belt driven) while the 991 uses electro mechanical (an electric motor turning your steering column). draw your own conclusions about what is an outright lie to address a point of contention.
as a final word for those who are longing for a manual option. if it gets a version of the current 991 manual type gearbox, start reading up on the Porsche MECOSA. it stands for manually converted shift actuator.
my pleasure from driving doesnt come from heel and toe, this is a necessary function of having a manual gearbox and not the reason i get into a car though i accept that for others it may be something that features much higher up their list. to those drivers i challenge you to experience cracking through the gearbox on a complex section flat out in a challenge stradale or scuderia and not finish thinking heel and toe may not be the be all and end all you thought.
what has my focus on the upcoming car is the quality of the components both in materials and design, and in an attempt to keep this on topic i'll limit this to the durability and performance of whatever gearbox they choose to use.
the outgoing 997 gearboxes that featured on the non GT3 cars, made by aisin lacked durability, rebuildability and any tuning options when used for anything more than road driving. they are not a high performance gearbox in any way, especially when compared to the race designed and proven unit the GT3s were fittted with.
with a new gearbox coming along, what interests me is whether porsche have designed it for actual performance or to cut costs. theres a real possibility that this new GT3 will look rather shabby once you start looking at the details behind the incredible performance figures it will no doubt give. lets hope not. If it just gets the current ZF designed trans then only time will tell how this holds up at the performance sharp end.
i know ive said this before but that BS from August Achleitner over the electric steering is just embrassing. "all our race drivers prefer it". porsche dont make a race car with it, every single one they make, including the current $500,000 2012 RSR uses electro hydraulic (ie regular power steering but with an electric pump rather than belt driven) while the 991 uses electro mechanical (an electric motor turning your steering column). draw your own conclusions about what is an outright lie to address a point of contention.
as a final word for those who are longing for a manual option. if it gets a version of the current 991 manual type gearbox, start reading up on the Porsche MECOSA. it stands for manually converted shift actuator.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 30th May 00:13
Dr S said:
Another benefit of PDK is that it makes left foot braking much easier, again something that in my book is as entertaining as using a manual gearbox. It's a great challenge to use it when trail braking in order to fully use weight transfer for perfect turn-in and catching the earliest moment to be on the throttle again
The fun from the gear box might be gone but there is other fun that all of a sudden becomes accessible...
unfortunately left foot braking has been "disabled" on every GT3 version since the switch to drive by wire throttle IIRC. doing it cuts the throttle input. i know having it activated via remap is a big mod for track day junkies.The fun from the gear box might be gone but there is other fun that all of a sudden becomes accessible...
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 30th May 00:04
Phooey said:
Before owning an auto (with paddles) i would of agreed with you on this, and when i had the PDK 997 for a week, i never used the paddles either. But, i have started to use the paddles on the C63 (on any road other than dual-carriageway etc), and have really found them to be very useful and interactive with the journey. I also find it keeps both hands on the steering wheel, and in the *correct* holding position
When I test drove my daily smoker (335D Sport Auto) the salesman said "I wouldn't bother with the paddles, they're just a gimmick".I concurred with him and didn't bother.A week into my ownership I thought I'd give the paddles a try, I too have really found them to be very useful and interactive with the journey (especially when I'm making progress) I use them pretty much ALL the time and rarely let the autobox do its thing, after a while it becomes intuitive.
Zyp said:
Drove a 991 Cab PDK today (first time in a PDK).
Sport Plus was (to me) overly aggressive, normal auto was, um, ......ok.
'Manual' was used for about 30 seconds and then the novelty wore off.
Great car, but I'm undecided on the PDK (although the blips were nice )
It just seems so convoluted - do I leave it in auto, do I use manual, what about the paddles, shall I have it in sport/plus mode..... etc, etc?
Just seems like so much to do and think about, just to drive a car.
Did you try Sport mode? Seem to be the concesus that it is the best all round choice?Sport Plus was (to me) overly aggressive, normal auto was, um, ......ok.
'Manual' was used for about 30 seconds and then the novelty wore off.
Great car, but I'm undecided on the PDK (although the blips were nice
)It just seems so convoluted - do I leave it in auto, do I use manual, what about the paddles, shall I have it in sport/plus mode..... etc, etc?
Just seems like so much to do and think about, just to drive a car.
Edited by Zyp on Tuesday 29th May 16:50
sofaking said:
Zyp said:
Drove a 991 Cab PDK today (first time in a PDK).
Sport Plus was (to me) overly aggressive, normal auto was, um, ......ok.
'Manual' was used for about 30 seconds and then the novelty wore off.
Great car, but I'm undecided on the PDK (although the blips were nice )
It just seems so convoluted - do I leave it in auto, do I use manual, what about the paddles, shall I have it in sport/plus mode..... etc, etc?
Just seems like so much to do and think about, just to drive a car.
Did you try Sport mode? Seem to be the concesus that it is the best all round choice?Sport Plus was (to me) overly aggressive, normal auto was, um, ......ok.
'Manual' was used for about 30 seconds and then the novelty wore off.
Great car, but I'm undecided on the PDK (although the blips were nice
)It just seems so convoluted - do I leave it in auto, do I use manual, what about the paddles, shall I have it in sport/plus mode..... etc, etc?
Just seems like so much to do and think about, just to drive a car.
Edited by Zyp on Tuesday 29th May 16:50
A couple of PDK doubters here keep insisting that no one uses the paddles, as if this insistence somehow counters the argument that the paddles allow interaction with the transmission, albeit of a different type to H & T. Well, I'm a keen H & T-er, now accustomed to PDK and I use the paddles on all occasions except heavy, crawling traffic.
Having sold my PDK GTS last week and borrowed a manual car while my new build is completed it has been interesting to return to a gear lever and recognise that the gate shift communicates, by its physical location in the gate, which gear you are in more effectively than the PDK gear indicator on the dash for which you need to divert and refocus your eyes from the road ahead. You look ahead at a corner, think "hmmm... 3rd gear looks appropriate", but potentially don't know what gear you are in at the outset without checking the indication. "Do I click twice or three times?" you wonder.
Now this could be seen as a weakness in PDK's toolbox, but I think it sets an interesting new challenge of thinking aurally and mechanically about the gears and shift points. The rev counter is bang in view and your ears are receiving messages from the engine so you need to coordinate sound, revs and shifts to make the up- and (particularly) downshifts at the correct points.
Before someone points out that this is true of a manual car as well, that is understood. But it's a subtly different challenge when you don't have that reference point of sensing the gear lever in, say, 4th with your hand.
Where PDK scores highly in this situation is the sheer speed and response of the shift, allowing you, as many have said, to focus on lines, braking points etc. The challenge is no longer one of rev matching and leg/lever/rev coordination. It's become an orientation one of locating where you are in the box by revs, sound and speed. A poor substitute some will say but a week back doing H & T to the same moderate standard as when I last had a manual car hasn't got me wishing I'd ordered a manual. In fact far from it.
It's a good thing Porsches are so durable. Manual fans will be enjoying their transmissions on classic Porsches for many years to come. And boasting on PH about the absence of depreciation on the classic 997 10 years from now. But don't plss on progress guys.
betternotbigger said:
Having sold my PDK GTS last week and borrowed a manual car while my new build is completed it has been interesting to return to a gear lever and recognise that the gate shift communicates, by its physical location in the gate, which gear you are in more effectively than the PDK gear indicator on the dash for which you need to divert and refocus your eyes from the road ahead. You look ahead at a corner, think "hmmm... 3rd gear looks appropriate", but potentially don't know what gear you are in at the outset without checking the indication. "Do I click twice or three times?" you wonder.
Now this could be seen as a weakness in PDK's toolbox, but I think it sets an interesting new challenge of thinking aurally and mechanically about the gears and shift points. The rev counter is bang in view and your ears are receiving messages from the engine so you need to coordinate sound, revs and shifts to make the up- and (particularly) downshifts at the correct points.
Before someone points out that this is true of a manual car as well, that is understood. But it's a subtly different challenge when you don't have that reference point of sensing the gear lever in, say, 4th with your hand.
Interesting you say about not knowing what gear you are in. I can't really recall taking much note to what gear the dash-indicator is telling me i'm in, i just listen to the engine. In my experience, you just know whether or not to pull + or - from the engine revs / note, especially when pressing on. Unless i *am* actually aware of the indicator and not really noticed i'm checking it... Now this could be seen as a weakness in PDK's toolbox, but I think it sets an interesting new challenge of thinking aurally and mechanically about the gears and shift points. The rev counter is bang in view and your ears are receiving messages from the engine so you need to coordinate sound, revs and shifts to make the up- and (particularly) downshifts at the correct points.
Before someone points out that this is true of a manual car as well, that is understood. But it's a subtly different challenge when you don't have that reference point of sensing the gear lever in, say, 4th with your hand.
fioran0 said:
Dr S said:
Another benefit of PDK is that it makes left foot braking much easier, again something that in my book is as entertaining as using a manual gearbox. It's a great challenge to use it when trail braking in order to fully use weight transfer for perfect turn-in and catching the earliest moment to be on the throttle again
The fun from the gear box might be gone but there is other fun that all of a sudden becomes accessible...
unfortunately left foot braking has been "disabled" on every GT3 version since the switch to drive by wire throttle IIRC. doing it cuts the throttle input. i know having it activated via remap is a big mod for track day junkies.The fun from the gear box might be gone but there is other fun that all of a sudden becomes accessible...
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 30th May 00:04
Phooey said:
Interesting you say about not knowing what gear you are in. I can't really recall taking much note to what gear the dash-indicator is telling me i'm in, i just listen to the engine. In my experience, you just know whether or not to pull + or - from the engine revs / note, especially when pressing on. Unless i *am* actually aware of the indicator and not really noticed i'm checking it...
Yes, that's sort of my point: PDK highlights the need to listen to engine and revs and bond on a more cerebral, less physical level. Since I'm probably slightly less clumsy upstairs than downstairs (no gags please), this challenge makes me smile.Olivera said:
fioran0 said:
...
unfortunately left foot braking has been "disabled" on every GT3 version since the switch to drive by wire throttle IIRC. doing it cuts the throttle input.
I'm actually astounded that's the case on the GT3 model!unfortunately left foot braking has been "disabled" on every GT3 version since the switch to drive by wire throttle IIRC. doing it cuts the throttle input.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 30th May 00:04
betternotbigger said:
Yes, that's sort of my point: PDK highlights the need to listen to engine and revs and bond on a more cerebral, less physical level. Since I'm probably slightly less clumsy upstairs than downstairs (no gags please), this challenge makes me smile.
I regret now not using the paddles on the demo 997 PDK i borrowed. I just left it in 'Sports' auto mode. It's only recently, since having some, that i have found enjoyment from them, and begun to appreciate how well-suited and matched to 'fast' driving they actually are. I wonder if in 5 years time ANY sports cars will have a gearstick!?
On the PDK system, say you are in 4th gear, and you come to 2nd gear bend, whilst braking / slowing, can you just pull and *hold* the '-' paddle for it to drop down 2 gears, or do you have to pull the '-' paddle TWICE? Or can you do either - pull and hold, OR pull twice?
Phooey said:
I regret now not using the paddles on the demo 997 PDK i borrowed. I just left it in 'Sports' auto mode. It's only recently, since having some, that i have found enjoyment from them, and begun to appreciate how well-suited and matched to 'fast' driving they actually are. I wonder if in 5 years time ANY sports cars will have a gearstick!?
On the PDK system, say you are in 4th gear, and you come to 2nd gear bend, whilst braking / slowing, can you just pull and *hold* the '-' paddle for it to drop down 2 gears, or do you have to pull the '-' paddle TWICE? Or can you do either - pull and hold, OR pull twice?
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