Ceramic brakes?
Discussion
Still think the weight saving of pccbs is more substantial than some posters realise.
But, that aside, a few years ago I met Andy Noble and the Caterham technical people at the Autosport Show, shortly after the R500 was launched.
They were really emphasising the importance of unsprung weigh savings and how they had shaved weight on the wheels, tyres and brake specs, but looked forward to the time when carbon brakes would be an affordable proposition on road cars.
Andy summed up the importance of unsprung weight - "like going for a jog in a pair of wellingtons or a pair of trainers". Great analogy.
But, that aside, a few years ago I met Andy Noble and the Caterham technical people at the Autosport Show, shortly after the R500 was launched.
They were really emphasising the importance of unsprung weigh savings and how they had shaved weight on the wheels, tyres and brake specs, but looked forward to the time when carbon brakes would be an affordable proposition on road cars.
Andy summed up the importance of unsprung weight - "like going for a jog in a pair of wellingtons or a pair of trainers". Great analogy.
Harris_I said:
The performance difference between ceramics and steel on road cars is so marginal as to be insignificant for the vast majority of users, particularly given the limitations of tyres.
I think Porsche, Ferrari et al have done an amazing job of convincing buyers to shell out for ceramics. In contrast, race teams tend to live quite happily with the performance of steels (though admittedly cost is the overriding concern).
I agree.I think Porsche, Ferrari et al have done an amazing job of convincing buyers to shell out for ceramics. In contrast, race teams tend to live quite happily with the performance of steels (though admittedly cost is the overriding concern).
The biggest real life benefit is that they keep the wheels clean.
My understanding from reading this and numerous sources from net yesterday:
-Steel brakes in Cayman S and R feel mushy and but have ok power.
-Mushy brake feel can be fixed by installing 997.2 GT3 Master cylinder.(bolt on part 300 - 500€) and better brake lines.
-Ceramic brakes are good in Porsches, they are light and effective on track driving.
-PCCB performance can however be affected by lower temperatures.
-Brake feel of PCCB system also improves by installing 997.2 GT3 Master cylinder
-PCCB rotors are thin and more prone to be damaged by user changing tyres or from gravel on side of track.
-PCCB have do brake dust
-PCCB can last longer but also have higher replacement costs
-Aftermarket PCCB brakes are just as expensive as original PCCB brakes.
-Most aftermarket high performance brakes are steel/aluminium
-Steel brakes in Cayman S and R feel mushy and but have ok power.
-Mushy brake feel can be fixed by installing 997.2 GT3 Master cylinder.(bolt on part 300 - 500€) and better brake lines.
-Ceramic brakes are good in Porsches, they are light and effective on track driving.
-PCCB performance can however be affected by lower temperatures.
-Brake feel of PCCB system also improves by installing 997.2 GT3 Master cylinder
-PCCB rotors are thin and more prone to be damaged by user changing tyres or from gravel on side of track.
-PCCB have do brake dust
-PCCB can last longer but also have higher replacement costs
-Aftermarket PCCB brakes are just as expensive as original PCCB brakes.
-Most aftermarket high performance brakes are steel/aluminium
Been very impressed with PCCBs, which I'd specced after losing all braking on last car with steels, and cracking the discs... Ceramics are stupendous on track by comparison, can get much longer out on track braking hard and it doesn't feel like you're killing it.
Can't say I am skilled enough to recognise the unsprung weight difference. Had a few bum clenching moments at the T junction to my road from cold, but fine once get even small amount of heat in them.
Just had OPC advise at service that the pads are 70% worn, after 4k miles and around 4-5 trackdays... replacement cost £750 front, £700 rear fitted (local indy quoted £1,200 using Porsche supplied pads).
Seems some people use motorsport pads (OPC wouldn't offer any alternative from standard, Indy I tried had no experience of them). Anyone recommend an Indy in London / Surrey to try on this, or have experience of better performance and wear than stock items?. Would Porsche motorsport pads a) invalidate warranty b) need disclosing to insurer (assume even worse cold weather performance!)
Sorry to thread steal but all part of the ownership considerations! (?)
Thanks
Can't say I am skilled enough to recognise the unsprung weight difference. Had a few bum clenching moments at the T junction to my road from cold, but fine once get even small amount of heat in them.
Just had OPC advise at service that the pads are 70% worn, after 4k miles and around 4-5 trackdays... replacement cost £750 front, £700 rear fitted (local indy quoted £1,200 using Porsche supplied pads).
Seems some people use motorsport pads (OPC wouldn't offer any alternative from standard, Indy I tried had no experience of them). Anyone recommend an Indy in London / Surrey to try on this, or have experience of better performance and wear than stock items?. Would Porsche motorsport pads a) invalidate warranty b) need disclosing to insurer (assume even worse cold weather performance!)
Sorry to thread steal but all part of the ownership considerations! (?)
Thanks
Raitzi said:
My understanding from reading this and numerous sources from net yesterday:
-Steel brakes in Cayman S and R feel mushy and but have ok power.
-Mushy brake feel can be fixed by installing 997.2 GT3 Master cylinder.(bolt on part 300 - 500€) and better brake lines.
-Ceramic brakes are good in Porsches, they are light and effective on track driving.
-PCCB performance can however be affected by lower temperatures.
-Brake feel of PCCB system also improves by installing 997.2 GT3 Master cylinder
-PCCB rotors are thin and more prone to be damaged by user changing tyres or from gravel on side of track.
-PCCB have do brake dust
-PCCB can last longer but also have higher replacement costs
-Aftermarket PCCB brakes are just as expensive as original PCCB brakes.
-Most aftermarket high performance brakes are steel/aluminium
I think you have mis interpreted the use of the term mushy. Mushy means progressive and this is good on a Porsche car which spends its life on roads. The gt3 brake feel is not something I would want to live with day to day. -Steel brakes in Cayman S and R feel mushy and but have ok power.
-Mushy brake feel can be fixed by installing 997.2 GT3 Master cylinder.(bolt on part 300 - 500€) and better brake lines.
-Ceramic brakes are good in Porsches, they are light and effective on track driving.
-PCCB performance can however be affected by lower temperatures.
-Brake feel of PCCB system also improves by installing 997.2 GT3 Master cylinder
-PCCB rotors are thin and more prone to be damaged by user changing tyres or from gravel on side of track.
-PCCB have do brake dust
-PCCB can last longer but also have higher replacement costs
-Aftermarket PCCB brakes are just as expensive as original PCCB brakes.
-Most aftermarket high performance brakes are steel/aluminium
The standard steels on all modern Porsche sports cars are excellent, the ceramics just turn it up a notch.
Carl_Docklands said:
I think you have mis interpreted the use of the term mushy. Mushy means progressive and this is good on a Porsche car which spends its life on roads. The gt3 brake feel is not something I would want to live with day to day.
The standard steels on all modern Porsche sports cars are excellent, the ceramics just turn it up a notch.
Yes. It is also basic physics. Brake force does not improve with larger cylinder. You can actually put more pressure on brake with longer stroke brake pedal.The standard steels on all modern Porsche sports cars are excellent, the ceramics just turn it up a notch.
Well I had the opportunity to give mine a little stick on some quiet roads last Sunday and I have to say that they're fab.
Yes there is a little more brake dust than I was expecting, but I was pulling up from some pretty high Lepton figures, time and again with zero drama and some impressive decleration. Whilst I only have the "steels" on my previous C2S to compare them to, high speed stopping distances are significantly shorter.
Yes there is a little more brake dust than I was expecting, but I was pulling up from some pretty high Lepton figures, time and again with zero drama and some impressive decleration. Whilst I only have the "steels" on my previous C2S to compare them to, high speed stopping distances are significantly shorter.
Hi there
I driven a few 997 Carreras, all with steels, apart from my own car which has ceramics.
The advantages for my are:-
1. I can feel the difference in handling for sure, the car just feels more alive, lighter, more darty etc.
2. Acceleration feels better, but between different cars there could be more reason for this other than just lighter unsprung mass.
3. Nearly zero dust, wheels stay very clean.
4. Lifespan, vastly superior on both pads and disc.
5. More or less noise free, equivalent performance braking on steels is very noisy.
6. Fade FREE!
The dis-advantages for me are/were:-
1. Very expensive to replace!
2. They can suffer badly from over heating and delaminating, this happened to mine.
3. Not as much pedal feel/travel as steels, not an issue in dry, but in the wet they can be a tad too sensitive compared to steels causing ABS to trigger.
I caused mine to delaminate due to tracking with them and braking too gently, causing more heat build up due to pro-longed braking. I've since fitted GT3 brake ducts and on track the correct method of braking with ceramics is to stand on them and to keep the sessions short, no more than 20 minutes.
For full on track use or anyone doing a lot of track time or even racing I'd advice steels over ceramics, unless you have CUP cooling levels and are braking with them right.
But for a road car the benefits are superb, the car just feels better without a doubt and the no dust and no/little noise is a big bonus. End of the day I love them so much I spent 3k last month replacing my fronts, and that was cheap, Porsche wanted 8k+ !!!!
I driven a few 997 Carreras, all with steels, apart from my own car which has ceramics.
The advantages for my are:-
1. I can feel the difference in handling for sure, the car just feels more alive, lighter, more darty etc.
2. Acceleration feels better, but between different cars there could be more reason for this other than just lighter unsprung mass.
3. Nearly zero dust, wheels stay very clean.
4. Lifespan, vastly superior on both pads and disc.
5. More or less noise free, equivalent performance braking on steels is very noisy.
6. Fade FREE!
The dis-advantages for me are/were:-
1. Very expensive to replace!
2. They can suffer badly from over heating and delaminating, this happened to mine.
3. Not as much pedal feel/travel as steels, not an issue in dry, but in the wet they can be a tad too sensitive compared to steels causing ABS to trigger.
I caused mine to delaminate due to tracking with them and braking too gently, causing more heat build up due to pro-longed braking. I've since fitted GT3 brake ducts and on track the correct method of braking with ceramics is to stand on them and to keep the sessions short, no more than 20 minutes.
For full on track use or anyone doing a lot of track time or even racing I'd advice steels over ceramics, unless you have CUP cooling levels and are braking with them right.
But for a road car the benefits are superb, the car just feels better without a doubt and the no dust and no/little noise is a big bonus. End of the day I love them so much I spent 3k last month replacing my fronts, and that was cheap, Porsche wanted 8k+ !!!!
Harris_I said:
Can't believe the amount of nonsense on this thread.
Steve Rance, Sean Edwards and others like them are reading this and sniggering to themselves but are probably too polite to say so.
I was thinking that too. As far as performance per pound spent goes, ceramic discs would be very low on my list, road or track.Steve Rance, Sean Edwards and others like them are reading this and sniggering to themselves but are probably too polite to say so.
nickfrog said:
How is that possible when the limiting factor is front (road) tyre grip ? Or are you running track tyres ?
Well the GT3 runs much bigger discs / calipers all round and I suppose it could be better suspension control? I can only go on feel, but after several stops from 140 Leptons down to 35 (or so - for some familiar, sharp corners), the car felt as if it was using less road to slow down and yes I was braking later!nickfrog said:
What is they say ? All the gear...
To say that you actually need to have driven a car with PCCB's .... 
Edited by MadMark911 on Wednesday 4th July 14:43
Edited by MadMark911 on Wednesday 4th July 14:45
spyderman8 said:
And you're impressed? Seriously? I'd be seriously peed off!
Been, not am... only just discovered the pad costs, hence looking around on pad alternatives now. Hardly use car outside of trackdays, and thought the main question was how you HAVE found them. Beats doing a few laps and worrying about hammering through pads or heading back into pits to cool discs down, in my opinion...
rezzie said:
Hardly use car outside of trackdays, and thought the main question was how you HAVE found them. Beats doing a few laps and worrying about hammering through pads or heading back into pits to cool discs down, in my opinion...
I did a direct comparison between 997.1 C4S with and without PCCB on the Silverstone Handling Circuit and couldn't feel the slightest difference - but I would admit that's in no way a fair test.I've hammered my own 986 with 9 sessions over a day at Donington, one up to 45 minutes long, using standard Porsche brakes plus race fluid and the tyres were always the limiting factor, not the brakes. Admittedly that's a quite a bit lighter than a 997, so again not exactly a fair test. I think with decent rotors, pads and fluid and GT3 air ducts, steels are quite suitable for even heavy track use.
I also find it telling that whenever I've spoken to any of the Carrera Cup UK teams about them, they're quote happy they're not allowed to use them.
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