Driving a car from cold, uphill.

[Mave]

Fubar1977 said:

I see where you are coming from and I suppose it depends on the nature of the engine and the gearing etc.
Still makes me uncomfortable putting that many revs on but I`m used to lots of torque at low revs so mine will pull very happily from 1500rpm.
I am using Satans fuel though

Not saying it's a problem, but just because you make good torque at 1500 rpm doesn't mean you're not 'labouring' it. If you need to make a certain hp at the wheel to get up a hill, then running the engine at 1500rpm will put twice the contact load on the bearings as at 3000rpm :-S

[sebhaque]

I'd much rather apply a light throttle and let the car get up to 4000rpm, instead of having to give the engine a bootful in order to maintain speed in too high a gear. Something about compression ratios and fatigue etc on a cold piece of metal.

New engines nowadays are run at redline/rev limiter speeds for 24 hours (well, a test engine is) before going into production so I doubt that anything this side of an Enzo will be too fussed about the odd bit of load when cold. I almost hate to admit it but when I had my TT, which I really, really disliked, I treated it awfully and it'd regularly experience full bore starts up to the limiter from stone cold. In the 1500 miles I abused it (running at 16.2mpg overall) I don't think I made any discernible difference to the engine. Not when compared to the cars I've babied through my ownership.

[excel monkey]

Robert Elise said:

i don't mean very high revs, but 2500 as a minimum going uphill otherwise you're in high-wear lugging territory. Not high high revs, and certainly not accelerating. It's load that wears engines, and keeping below 2500 whilst demanding the engine overcomes gravity feels like too much to me.

TameRacingDriver said:

I too would rather have the car sitting at say 3500 rpm on a light throttle opening from cold, than letting the engine labour at low revs with a greater throttle opening, it just feels better IMO.

Is labouring still a real problem for modern engines? I hear a lot of "it just feels bad" comments, but is there any proof that it causes damage? I can understand how it might cause premature wear to the dual mass flywheel, but other than that, is this just another outdated concept from the 1970s, along with long running-in periods and 6000 mile oil changes?

[TameRacingDriver]

excel monkey said:

Is labouring still a real problem for modern engines? I hear a lot of "it just feels bad" comments, but is there any proof that it causes damage? I can understand how it might cause premature wear to the dual mass flywheel, but other than that, is this just another outdated concept from the 1970s, along with long running-in periods and 6000 mile oil changes?

I can't honestly answer that, just that it feels better.

I've always likened it to riding a bike, I wouldn't try and pedal up a hill in 21st gear as it would wreck my legs, so I won't do the same to a car, although I would say that its unlikely to cause permanent damage to your legs (although you could certainly strain muscles etc), whether that's the same for an engine, I can't personally answer that.

Basically though, I still think placing a light load on an engine up to about 4K rpm for a petrol is unlikely to cause any harm.

[petrolsniffer]

I must be unsympathetic looking at these posts my limit for the first few miles is 4k rpm!

[MGJohn]

TameRacingDriver said:

excel monkey said:

Is labouring still a real problem for modern engines? I hear a lot of "it just feels bad" comments, but is there any proof that it causes damage? I can understand how it might cause premature wear to the dual mass flywheel, but other than that, is this just another outdated concept from the 1970s, along with long running-in periods and 6000 mile oil changes?

I can't honestly answer that, just that it feels better.

I've always likened it to riding a bike, I wouldn't try and pedal up a hill in 21st gear as it would wreck my legs, so I won't do the same to a car, although I would say that its unlikely to cause permanent damage to your legs (although you could certainly strain muscles etc), whether that's the same for an engine, I can't personally answer that.

Basically though, I still think placing a light load on an engine up to about 4K rpm for a petrol is unlikely to cause any harm.

That is an excellent way to highlight how the physics of an engine would have additional stress.

Additionally, whilst few folks bother with 'running in' their modern, new company cars and they do not appear to cause any harm, that does not mean the longevity of the engine would not be compromised in some way.

Every new car I've bought or made available to me over the last half century, even company cars because I sometimes bought them when the time came to change, has benefited from progressive 'running in' for the first say two thousand miles. Work colleagues who also believed it was not necessary with modern cars, often had engine problems as the mileages built up. My cars never did and the next new car I buy, will also be treated to progressive "running in" period for the first say two thousand miles. Simply because my experience shows it is beneficial. I tend to keep my cars or pass them on in the family for 7-10 years, sometimes more. Thirteen and fifteen years even. Never had engine problems.

[TameRacingDriver]

petrolsniffer said:

I must be unsympathetic looking at these posts my limit for the first few miles is 4k rpm!

Same, but IMO, limiting things to 2,500 is just being paranoid, and as I said in a previous post, not always practical / safe.

[otolith]

I used to live a mile from a very short sliproad onto a fast, busy dual carriageway. I hated driving to work that way on a cold engine.

[Limpet]

The only person I ever knew to knock the bottom end out of a Vauxhall C20XE did it by driving flat out every day up a 1 in 5 hill less than half a mile from his work car park. After four months of this, it started knocking. He was a complete idiot though. Throttle was an on/off switch, and the rev limiter was a gear change indicator. I kid you not.

In general terms though, I suspect if the car is well serviced engine, and running good quality oil of the correct spec, and of course driven with a degree of mechanical sympathy, there is nothing to worry about.

[Dave200]

Pedants and OCD types worry far too much about this kind of thing, and tend to use them to justify excessive faffing and maintenance on very normal cars.

My folks live in the darkest valleys of Wales, and have spent the past 30yrs pulling out of their driveways onto a one-mile long 1:10 hill with cold engines. All of their cars have gone on to live far beyond 100k with nothing more than routine servicing.

In summary, if you're driving something with a highly-strung race engine and recommended 3k oil-change intervals, then you're probably best avoiding it. In anything which resembles a repmobile or shopping hatch, you're probably worrying excessively.

[Janesy B]

Just drive normally, as long as 'normally' doesn't mean bouncing it off the limiter all the time

[rumple]

Dave200 said:

Pedants and OCD types worry far too much about this kind of thing, and tend to use them to justify excessive faffing and maintenance on very normal cars.

My folks live in the darkest valleys of Wales, and have spent the past 30yrs pulling out of their driveways onto a one-mile long 1:10 hill with cold engines. All of their cars have gone on to live far beyond 100k with nothing more than routine servicing.

In summary, if you're driving something with a highly-strung race engine and recommended 3k oil-change intervals, then you're probably best avoiding it. In anything which resembles a repmobile or shopping hatch, you're probably worrying excessively.

+1

[excel monkey]

Dave200 said:

Pedants and OCD types worry far too much about this kind of thing, and tend to use them to justify excessive faffing and maintenance on very normal cars.

That's more than half of PH right there

[Mave]

Dave200 said:

Pedants and OCD types worry far too much about this kind of thing, and tend to use them to justify excessive faffing and maintenance on very normal cars

I may fall into that category, but... I'd like to think I drive with some mechanical sympathy, whereas my wife doesn't. I've always maintained both of our cars the same, but her cars are always knackered after about 2 years, whereas mine are not. Modern cars may be more tolerant of abuse than old ones, but that doesn't mean they are impervious....

[SMGB]

Robert Elise said:

i would have thought keep revs above 2500. keep oil pressure up and not lug the engine. i mean higher revs, not accelerating and putting load on a cold engine

+1
I have to do this if I skip going down the single track hollow lane from our house. It doesnt bother me at all I just dont lug the engine and let the cars go up the hill feeling comforatable.
What does set my teeth on edge is the yummy mummies in our development with their heavy breeder waggons loaded with kids pushchairs shoes handbags and makeup. They just nail them from cold without a care in the world.

[Devil2575]

excel monkey said:

Dave200 said:

Pedants and OCD types worry far too much about this kind of thing, and tend to use them to justify excessive faffing and maintenance on very normal cars.

That's more than half of PH right there

I agree.

Just get in and drive the feckin car and stop worring about stuff that doesn't really matter

[Dave200]

Mave said:

Dave200 said:

Pedants and OCD types worry far too much about this kind of thing, and tend to use them to justify excessive faffing and maintenance on very normal cars

I may fall into that category, but... I'd like to think I drive with some mechanical sympathy, whereas my wife doesn't. I've always maintained both of our cars the same, but her cars are always knackered after about 2 years, whereas mine are not. Modern cars may be more tolerant of abuse than old ones, but that doesn't mean they are impervious....

If she is truly capable of killing a car within 2 years, your wife should go and apply for a job development testing with Ford...

They typically put 000s of miles on mules in all sorts of inhospitable environments. If you think that the Great British Winter and your wife's heavy right foot is all it takes, then they could save a fortune.

Or, you might be exaggerating...

Edited by Dave200 on Wednesday 22 May 18:16

[ExperienceMad]

Apparently it's gentler on a cold engine to reverse up hills. Seems the gearing is perfect to maintain the optimum engine speed for most hills encountered by motorists when their engines are cold.

Annoying for other road users but you'll have the last laugh when their engine is clapped out and yours is fresh as a daisy.

[Dave200]

ExperienceMad said:

Apparently it's gentler on a cold engine to reverse up hills. Seems the gearing is perfect to maintain the optimum engine speed for most hills encountered by motorists when their engines are cold.

Annoying for other road users but you'll have the last laugh when their engine is clapped out and yours is fresh as a daisy.

If this is sarcasm, it's hilarious.

If not, I'm lost for words.

[ExperienceMad]

It was sarcasm. Like this:-

fjord said:

Does anyone worry about the wind as well? Im worried that years of wind erosion on the paint of my vehicle will actually make it smaller.

Tickled me that.