RE: Chris Harris video: Ford Fiesta ST

[106 gti]

GroundEffect said:

What do you expect a new CAC to do? I work with the guy who designed the intercooler (and the rest of the cooling system) on the ST and it's pretty damn good already. You wont get much more.

Lets just say Pete at spec- r works wonders and test have given more bhp with his ic fitted on a standard map car

[106 gti]

AdamC1983 said:

Where have u seen this??

http://www.facebook.com/specr.alloy

[106 gti]

DB89 said:

Because he knows who owns Spec-R, ill be up to get mine fitted when I buy one Neil.

Thought you were becoming a biker ?

[Mike1990]

Really glad Ford have got back on track in midsize Hot Hatch market with this ST.

[timmeh2k]

Bloody hell monkey, have you lost your razer??

[AdamC1983]

Ha ha yeah the 80s called and wants its beard back!

[porscheegt3]

carinaman said:

I was thinking more of the plaudits for the Fiesta as a whole in this thread.

I think the current Ford chassis guru has featured in an article here on PH.

Peugeot 205GTi? Didn't Peugeot make their own dampers for that car?

As good as new Fiesta is(best in class, easy to drive fast, fun car), I think monkey`s beard would be on fire if he drove 205 gti on its presentation. Jean baudin as a chassis guru cannot be surpassed.

[Kawasicki]

MC Bodge said:

Kawasicki said:

Tarmac rally cars are designed for real roads, they are not comfortable, in fact they are harsh as hell. What is the typical use of a hot hatch?

A new Hot hatch is typically used for driving to work and to the shops, like most other cars. Most of the people I've met with hot/sporty/performance cars don't take them for brisk drives or take 'the scenic route' and tend to know very little about them.

I am somebody who likes to take 'the scenic route' briskly, rather than track days, and I prefer a compliant ride with good body control, such as that offered on a typical standard Ford on the smaller rims, to a harsh 'sporty' ride. (My mother's previous-model Fiesta 1.4 seems to manage it, as does my Mondeo).

The model below the ST would probably be a very good car.

Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 23 May 18:27

I agree 100%, but I expect the ST has been engineered to be more responsive, more controlled and more capable in enthusiastic driving than the standard model, this usually means the ride takes a lower priority. If you value ride over response, then a hot hatch is not a smart choice. To buy any hot hatch and then say the ride is harsh just confirms that you bought the wrong car.

[DB89]

106 gti said:

Thought you were becoming a biker ?

I can't make my mind up that's the problem.

[MC Bodge]

Kawasicki said:

I agree 100%, but I expect the ST has been engineered to be more responsive, more controlled and more capable in enthusiastic driving than the standard model, this usually means the ride takes a lower priority. If you value ride over response, then a hot hatch is not a smart choice. To buy any hot hatch and then say the ride is harsh just confirms that you bought the wrong car.

A quick road car should probably be set up to provide a good ride/traction/handling compromise setup for the road rather than a track/rally setup. Fitting smaller rims (albeit possibly requiring smaller brakes) and slightly taller tyres would be a good start in improving ride.

The problem is that, as one manufacturer produces something more track-biased and with larger wheels, the next manufacturer takes it further. For a manufacturer to produce something less 'sharp' or apparently 'sporty' it would probably be criticised for being only a "warm" hatch, whether or not it was actually fit-for-purpose (ie. driven on the roads and mostly for the image), and as quick on the roads as a harsher model.

[mollytherocker]

MC Bodge said:

A quick road car should probably be set up to provide a good ride/traction/handling compromise setup for the road rather than a track/rally setup. Fitting smaller rims (albeit possibly requiring smaller brakes) and slightly taller tyres would be a good start in improving ride.

The problem is that, as one manufacturer produces something more track-biased and with larger wheels, the next manufacturer takes it further. For a manufacturer to produce something less 'sharp' or apparently 'sporty' it would probably be criticised for being only a "warm" hatch, whether or not it was actually fit-for-purpose (ie. driven on the roads and mostly for the image), and as quick on the roads as a harsher model.

It comes down to the definition of what a hot hatch should be. For me, they are not a track car.

They should be a daily fun road car that entertains and is usable.

Having said that, I am more than happy to put up with a low speed poor ride if the rewards when pushing on are great enough.

[GroundEffect]

106 gti said:

GroundEffect said:

What do you expect a new CAC to do? I work with the guy who designed the intercooler (and the rest of the cooling system) on the ST and it's pretty damn good already. You wont get much more.

Lets just say Pete at spec- r works wonders and test have given more bhp with his ic fitted on a standard map car

I'd be interested in the methodology of the tests. We spent a lot of time and money developing that system to perform as well as it could within budget.

[budgie smuggler]

Shame we're not getting the 5 door otherwise I'd be looking at one of these. Great little car.

[Technomatt]

MC Bodge said:

Kawasicki said:

I agree 100%, but I expect the ST has been engineered to be more responsive, more controlled and more capable in enthusiastic driving than the standard model, this usually means the ride takes a lower priority. If you value ride over response, then a hot hatch is not a smart choice. To buy any hot hatch and then say the ride is harsh just confirms that you bought the wrong car.

A quick road car should probably be set up to provide a good ride/traction/handling compromise setup for the road rather than a track/rally setup. Fitting smaller rims (albeit possibly requiring smaller brakes) and slightly taller tyres would be a good start in improving ride.

The problem is that, as one manufacturer produces something more track-biased and with larger wheels, the next manufacturer takes it further. For a manufacturer to produce something less 'sharp' or apparently 'sporty' it would probably be criticised for being only a "warm" hatch, whether or not it was actually fit-for-purpose (ie. driven on the roads and mostly for the image), and as quick on the roads as a harsher model.

And that is where Renaultsport used to provide a reasonable solution with its Cup pack option.

A choice of spec with the Cup on basically the same hot hatch platform with uprated springs, dampers, roll bars and reduced ride heights.

Unfortunately, the new Clio 200T Cup seems to have lost it's way in that regard and now being a bit of a porker, you can’t easily overcome the physics of mass and it's now a bit wet on track.

The solution, to a certain extent, for a bit of the best of both worlds, is some form of adaptive damping but that will come at a price.

[loudlashadjuster]

currybum said:

106 gti said:

GroundEffect said:

What do you expect a new CAC to do? I work with the guy who designed the intercooler (and the rest of the cooling system) on the ST and it's pretty damn good already. You wont get much more.

Lets just say Pete at spec- r works wonders and test have given more bhp with his ic fitted on a standard map car

When specifying an inter cooler there is much more to it than just BHP, you can bolt on a massive IC that gets the charge air down to silly levels so that you get more power..but that might be ok when running the engine steady state on a dyno and you can tell the world how clever you are by getting more power from the engine.

But in the real world peek power is not the only factor, by increasing the size of the cooling circuit you impact the transient response times..the reason this engine has a great response and minimal lag, is that the whole things has been designed as an integrated system balancing attributes against peek power figures.

:golf clap:

I've been in too many cars that have been compromised/ruined by the chase of headline HP.

[Limpet]

loudlashadjuster said:

:golf clap:

I've been in too many cars that have been compromised/ruined by the chase of headline HP.

I agree. It's also why, when the same engine is offered in multiple states of tune, the highest output version is not always the nicest to drive.

[LuS1fer]

Limpet said:

I agree. It's also why, when the same engine is offered in multiple states of tune, the highest output version is not always the nicest to drive.

It's also why big capacity, low hp 80s Yanks are still great to drive.

[Mr Whippy]

106 gti said:

GroundEffect said:

What do you expect a new CAC to do? I work with the guy who designed the intercooler (and the rest of the cooling system) on the ST and it's pretty damn good already. You wont get much more.

Lets just say Pete at spec- r works wonders and test have given more bhp with his ic fitted on a standard map car

There is a big difference between an upgrade when an upgrade is needed, and upgrades for standard cars.

To out-perform a standard brand new car and gain real power and thus efficiency, is a big stretch of the imagination.

Maybe in the old days but on modern computer controlled cars the whole system is designed and calibrated for standard components.


In a really really big loop around I might guess that exhaust restriction is lower due to reduced pumping losses on the compressor, but would Ford really have made an intercooler that poor that it loses power as standard?

I can't see where else the power could come from, but to gain power from turbo turbine pumping losses, considering the high over-head built in as OEM, is again hard to believe.


I'm open minded though, so happy to have it explained to me.

Dave

[Mr Whippy]

MiseryStreak said:

Mr Whippy said:

Still I think this car should have used the 2.0 250bhp from the Focus ST...

You've just said all that stuff that makes sense then finished by saying they should make the £17K Fiesta faster than the £22K (heavier) Focus by using the same engine in both. Why would they do that?

The Fiesta is arguably the hot-hatch model... the Focus is a bit too big and lardy these days to HAVE to be the biggest fastest one.

Why did Ford make the old Mk1 RS and only an ST Mondeo?

We are now in a situation where the new Focus is as big and heavy as the ST220 Mondeo, probably, and the Fiesta is crying out for a 200-250bhp engine, fancy diff, and subtle but sporty looks.

Hmmm

Dave

[Don1]

"....in the summer."