944 S2 increasing in value?
Discussion
I owned a 968 Sport until recently and enjoyed it immensely. Prices have firmed over the last couple of years but appear to be showing signs of having reached a plateau right now IMHO.
As with many cars there are certain models that hit the top of peoples "Want" lists while others remain somewhat in the shadows. In this case I'd suggest its 250bhp Turbos and 968 Clubsports (and not S2 or Sports).
I found as a daily, the 968 (as a 19 year old car) simply required too much regular tinkering and always had a to-do list. They can serve up big bills from every direction (camshafts, Torque tubes, brake caliper plate lift, oil leaks, suspension refreshes, cambelts/chains/tensioners/slipper pads etc). I suspect that if bought well, a similarly priced Boxster will on average have fewer age related issues and lower running costs (albeit highly propensity to go bang big style). On the flip side, a well bought 968/944 could offset higher running costs with little/no/negative depreciation. This will be down to luck and the whims of the market when you decide to sell.
I cannot speak for the 986 Boxster but £10k+ is now 987 money and I'd suggest that the right 987 will be more fun more of the time than a 944/968. Having said that, the 968 has that old skool low speed chassis adjustability on the throttle that modern Porsches (particularly the over-tyred ones) struggle to replicate.
As with many cars there are certain models that hit the top of peoples "Want" lists while others remain somewhat in the shadows. In this case I'd suggest its 250bhp Turbos and 968 Clubsports (and not S2 or Sports).
I found as a daily, the 968 (as a 19 year old car) simply required too much regular tinkering and always had a to-do list. They can serve up big bills from every direction (camshafts, Torque tubes, brake caliper plate lift, oil leaks, suspension refreshes, cambelts/chains/tensioners/slipper pads etc). I suspect that if bought well, a similarly priced Boxster will on average have fewer age related issues and lower running costs (albeit highly propensity to go bang big style). On the flip side, a well bought 968/944 could offset higher running costs with little/no/negative depreciation. This will be down to luck and the whims of the market when you decide to sell.
I cannot speak for the 986 Boxster but £10k+ is now 987 money and I'd suggest that the right 987 will be more fun more of the time than a 944/968. Having said that, the 968 has that old skool low speed chassis adjustability on the throttle that modern Porsches (particularly the over-tyred ones) struggle to replicate.
Having run a 944T and a 968Sport as daily drivers, yes you do tend to have a to-do list, but no shorter than many more modern cars I have driven (must sort out the ABS sensor, Window issue and bushing on the Jaaaag....) with the difference that they are simple enough to work on yourself, I am not sure your could say the same of the Boxster?
The 944 community is amazing too, many £s saved by help and assistance from the PCGB forum members, with almost instantaneous response in an emergency!
The 944 market does seem to have crept up a bit, but there are still reasonable cars around and of course mileage is not worth paying for, I had to spend much more to get my shiny garage-Queen 968 up to daily standard than I did my 944
The 944 community is amazing too, many £s saved by help and assistance from the PCGB forum members, with almost instantaneous response in an emergency!
The 944 market does seem to have crept up a bit, but there are still reasonable cars around and of course mileage is not worth paying for, I had to spend much more to get my shiny garage-Queen 968 up to daily standard than I did my 944
They are great old cars, have owned a few of them over the years, prices on S2 probably reached their low point, good ones getting harder to find and going up in value, scruffy ones no one wants.
I find them quite low cost maintenance wise, but bear in mind even the youngest 944 is now over 22 years old so there will always be things that come up needing done.
They are quite simple to work on (for a Porsche) certainly a much cheaper proposition to work on/repair than a Boxster.
£5k should get you a nice one with decent history, expect to pay more for one in mint condition.
I find them quite low cost maintenance wise, but bear in mind even the youngest 944 is now over 22 years old so there will always be things that come up needing done.
They are quite simple to work on (for a Porsche) certainly a much cheaper proposition to work on/repair than a Boxster.
£5k should get you a nice one with decent history, expect to pay more for one in mint condition.
blade7 said:
The S2 will always be in the Turbo's shadow and worth 30% + less, chip a 250 Turbo and most S2's will be at least 80 bhp weaker with smaller brakes and no LSD. I'd take an M3 over an S2 every day of the week.
I dont think all Turbo's had an LSD and werent the brakes the same if MO30 hadnt been specified ?I think we over simplify to More power = Better, it isnt like the difference between say a 1.6 Sierra and a 2.0 Sierra, i.e. a slightly higher capacity and output of the same thing, the two engines are completely different in character and power delivery.
I always assumed if I got a 944 it would be a turbo but the S2 is a nice unit, its reasonably quick even by modern standards, for example quicker to 100 than an Astra VXR (on paper, never tried) and a Sierra Cosworth, it is still 211 bhp despite the impression that they are barely able to move that seems to persist, I rarely find mine lacking in normal road situations, that said I am looking at TVR's (Will keep the 944 though I think)
Part of the appeal of the turbo can be its downfall, once you start messing about with a twenty odd year old turbo engine thats done a fair few miles, upping the boost may not be the no brainer you perhaps think, this isnt Forza, sure you can get a chip for £40 off Ebay and it will be a tried and trusted map, but then you start running another 40 bhp things break, burst,snap and things need upgrading and it gets expensive, there is a big diffeence between finding a turbo that runs and some of the comprehensively re-engineering cars on the forums some of the chaps have, some have had 10, 15, 20 grand or more sunk into them. So with an S2 you are kind of freed from some of that, there are bits you can do but nothing like a turbo, they need a lot of fettling being an old car anyway, melting pistons, blowing headgaskets, bursting pipes and the like will add to this.
Not sure which M3 you mean, an E30 cant be had at that kind of money, sort of agree on perhaps an E36 but only because it has another 100 bhp and 2 cylinders more, the rest just isnt as good, I like the E36 M3 but to most they still look a bit baz-tastic.
The s2 is a far more realistic prospect regards non heart attack inducing bills compared to a turbo in my experience. Pretty much very turbo has been chipped and ragged and rebuilt with various degrees of success and by people of varying competences, whereas I'd say the majority if s2 s are pretty stock. So if you can find an s2 withi reasonable history in good nick, I'd say go for it, unless you know a turbo inside and out and are ready to spend large on it as required!
The turbos are ace cars, don't get me wrong, and proper quick even in stock form. But the s2 is no slouch, they're a small car by modern standards. Light, and the 211 German horses within are strong horses! I've touched 150 on the autobahn in my cab with only a k and n and tweaked fuel regulator. Not bad for 1989 tech!
The turbos are ace cars, don't get me wrong, and proper quick even in stock form. But the s2 is no slouch, they're a small car by modern standards. Light, and the 211 German horses within are strong horses! I've touched 150 on the autobahn in my cab with only a k and n and tweaked fuel regulator. Not bad for 1989 tech!
Strawman said:
spitsfire said:
- They really aren't that fast any more; 2 grand of Integra would leave one for dead (apart from the turbo)
Less power (195 for the type R versus 210 for the S2 16v), similar weight (1117kgs versus 1310) and fwd vs rwd, how does that work? Comparable performance would seem fairer than left for dead.
J4CKO said:
blade7 said:
The S2 will always be in the Turbo's shadow and worth 30% + less, chip a 250 Turbo and most S2's will be at least 80 bhp weaker with smaller brakes and no LSD. I'd take an M3 over an S2 every day of the week.
I dont think all Turbo's had an LSD and werent the brakes the same if MO30 hadnt been specified ?I think we over simplify to More power = Better, it isnt like the difference between say a 1.6 Sierra and a 2.0 Sierra, i.e. a slightly higher capacity and output of the same thing, the two engines are completely different in character and power delivery.
I always assumed if I got a 944 it would be a turbo but the S2 is a nice unit, its reasonably quick even by modern standards, for example quicker to 100 than an Astra VXR (on paper, never tried) and a Sierra Cosworth, it is still 211 bhp despite the impression that they are barely able to move that seems to persist, I rarely find mine lacking in normal road situations, that said I am looking at TVR's (Will keep the 944 though I think)
Part of the appeal of the turbo can be its downfall, once you start messing about with a twenty odd year old turbo engine thats done a fair few miles, upping the boost may not be the no brainer you perhaps think, this isnt Forza, sure you can get a chip for £40 off Ebay and it will be a tried and trusted map, but then you start running another 40 bhp things break, burst,snap and things need upgrading and it gets expensive, there is a big diffeence between finding a turbo that runs and some of the comprehensively re-engineering cars on the forums some of the chaps have, some have had 10, 15, 20 grand or more sunk into them. So with an S2 you are kind of freed from some of that, there are bits you can do but nothing like a turbo, they need a lot of fettling being an old car anyway, melting pistons, blowing headgaskets, bursting pipes and the like will add to this.
Not sure which M3 you mean, an E30 cant be had at that kind of money, sort of agree on perhaps an E36 but only because it has another 100 bhp and 2 cylinders more, the rest just isnt as good, I like the E36 M3 but to most they still look a bit baz-tastic.
...I quite liked my S2, the engine in particular was one of the best n/a engines I've driven. ~200bhp ~200lb/ft offers great usable performance.
But now in the cold light of day I can recognise that rusty sills, corroded callipers, expensive cambelt change go some way towards making the S2 a non-budget car option.
To a similar extended this is the Boxster problem too. Many people look at old premium cars and just see ££££ repair bills.
Throw in to the mix cheap new car lease deals and prices of some old sports cars tumble.
Having said all of that, I'd still like to own a Mercedes 190 16v one day. Great VFM.
But now in the cold light of day I can recognise that rusty sills, corroded callipers, expensive cambelt change go some way towards making the S2 a non-budget car option.
To a similar extended this is the Boxster problem too. Many people look at old premium cars and just see ££££ repair bills.
Throw in to the mix cheap new car lease deals and prices of some old sports cars tumble.
Having said all of that, I'd still like to own a Mercedes 190 16v one day. Great VFM.
wemorgan said:
I quite liked my S2, the engine in particular was one of the best n/a engines I've driven. ~200bhp ~200lb/ft offers great usable performance.
But now in the cold light of day I can recognise that rusty sills, corroded callipers, expensive cambelt change go some way towards making the S2 a non-budget car option.
To a similar extended this is the Boxster problem too. Many people look at old premium cars and just see ££££ repair bills.
Throw in to the mix cheap new car lease deals and prices of some old sports cars tumble.
Having said all of that, I'd still like to own a Mercedes 190 16v one day. Great VFM.
I paid £300 for the belts at a specialist, I had a look at my calipers when I put braided hoses on, werent too bad to do, sills, hmm, still to tackle that one.But now in the cold light of day I can recognise that rusty sills, corroded callipers, expensive cambelt change go some way towards making the S2 a non-budget car option.
To a similar extended this is the Boxster problem too. Many people look at old premium cars and just see ££££ repair bills.
Throw in to the mix cheap new car lease deals and prices of some old sports cars tumble.
Having said all of that, I'd still like to own a Mercedes 190 16v one day. Great VFM.
With all cars like this, you need to either have deep pockets or many sockets !
"They are great old cars, have owned a few of them over the years, prices on S2 probably reached their low point, good ones getting harder to find and going up in value, scruffy ones no one wants."
I think this is what is happening now. 944s are either owned by enthusiasts who have spent to keep them in good nick, or they are rusting away. There is nothing in the middle anymore.
I think this is what is happening now. 944s are either owned by enthusiasts who have spent to keep them in good nick, or they are rusting away. There is nothing in the middle anymore.
Strawman said:
spitsfire said:
- They really aren't that fast any more; 2 grand of Integra would leave one for dead (apart from the turbo)
Less power (195 for the type R versus 210 for the S2 16v), similar weight (1117kgs versus 1310) and fwd vs rwd, how does that work? Comparable performance would seem fairer than left for dead.I'd still have a 944 tomorrow if I was offered one, but I wouldn't buy ANY classic as an 'investment' in the current market; sooner or later the arse is going to fall out of it, and the forums will be drowning in sob stories about folk who bought a 912 for 20 grand as an 'investment' (yes, I've just seen one of these glorified beetles advertised at 25 grand. I kid you not.) and a year later it's only worth 10k.
Nice cars, but not a 'sound' investment by any stretch. Cars very rarely, if ever, are.
R0B. said:
Strawman said:
Less power (195 for the type R versus 210 for the S2 16v), similar weight (1117kgs versus 1310) and fwd vs rwd, how does that work? Comparable performance would seem fairer than left for dead.
200kg makes quite a difference on track, probably less so on your average B road blast:http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/honda_integra_t...
So there it is. It must be true, cause it says so on the interweb.
I've owned many old 944s over the years including a number S2s. Also owned a 911 and I'm now running a Boxster S.
The 944 S2 is so much better than the earlier 944 in every way. But I always felt that it just felt like an old car, both in design and in actually use (I used mine daily). I constantly had a list of jobs waiting to be done on it. That said, still a great car to drive and a beautiful looking one at that.
However, if I was spending that kind of money on a Porsche and it had to be 944S2 or Boxster, there is really no comparison. The Boxster is massively competent and really is light years ahead in every department, not least build quality.
However, as mentioned by others, there are so many Boxsters around and so few good S2s that prices will always been skewed for now. The problem will be that many Boxsters are about to fall into the hands of peoplewho really can't afford to look after them properly.
The 944 S2 is so much better than the earlier 944 in every way. But I always felt that it just felt like an old car, both in design and in actually use (I used mine daily). I constantly had a list of jobs waiting to be done on it. That said, still a great car to drive and a beautiful looking one at that.
However, if I was spending that kind of money on a Porsche and it had to be 944S2 or Boxster, there is really no comparison. The Boxster is massively competent and really is light years ahead in every department, not least build quality.
However, as mentioned by others, there are so many Boxsters around and so few good S2s that prices will always been skewed for now. The problem will be that many Boxsters are about to fall into the hands of peoplewho really can't afford to look after them properly.
R0B. said:
Strawman said:
Less power (195 for the type R versus 210 for the S2 16v), similar weight (1117kgs versus 1310) and fwd vs rwd, how does that work? Comparable performance would seem fairer than left for dead.
200kg makes quite a difference on track, probably less so on your average B road blast:http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/honda_integra_t...
I wonder if the 944 S2 time was taken from an older car mag article when the track was a bit rougher?
Its a really nice car, friend of mine had a uppgraded race 944 (but still with most of the interior left). Meaty engine and they are VERY quick around the tracks with more modern rubber and a really nice suspension setup. Like mentioned earlier, they really need some suspension refresh, dont run the original worn stuff, its a night and day difference.
Who talked about better build quality on a boxster, was that a joke I didnt understand? 986 boxsters feels like a chinese plastic toy compared to the 944 which is built in old shool fasion (like tank, too bad about the weight though ). Ive driven a 986 and it wasnt that special, sure has potential if you make the exhaust louder and sharpen up the suspension. But the interior quiality is a joke, steering etc pretty fine, but the engine quiality problems (and lubrication problems with sticky tires) is a little dissapointing. So, both good and bad But I still have waaaay more fun in my 924 Turbo .... Have a nice day lads !
Who talked about better build quality on a boxster, was that a joke I didnt understand?
986 boxsters feels like a chinese plastic toy compared to the 944 which is built in old shool fasion (like tank, too bad about the weight though ). Ive driven a 986 and it wasnt that special, sure has potential if you make the exhaust louder and sharpen up the suspension. But the interior quiality is a joke, steering etc pretty fine, but the engine quiality problems (and lubrication problems with sticky tires) is a little dissapointing. So, both good and bad But I still have waaaay more fun in my 924 Turbo .... Have a nice day lads !Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff