Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
I read articles from various sources, check their sources and make sure the information is corroborated.
I'll stress again, I'm entirely against taking sides here and Assad is no hero of mine, I'm trying to provide balance to the "democracy loving rebels" rhetoric espoused by much of the media.
I'll stress again, I'm entirely against taking sides here and Assad is no hero of mine, I'm trying to provide balance to the "democracy loving rebels" rhetoric espoused by much of the media.
Transmitter Man said:
Phil my info does not come from tv or youtube or the press.
Sean,
So where do you get your information from and how can your comments be considered balanced let alone valid?
Phil
As said above I cannot remember the website where I was getting my info from if I did I would happily put it up here. I haven't really done much research since the homs incident I simply base my belief on how much crap I came across in the beginnings.Sean,
So where do you get your information from and how can your comments be considered balanced let alone valid?
Phil
All I have done is note that there are regular scare stories making assad out to be some psycho much like there was in the beginnings up to and including the homs massacre. I base my assumptions on that info.
When yet another story comes along labelling assad as a murderer I therefore read between the lines for the truth.
Tallbutbuxomly said:
As said above I cannot remember the website where I was getting my info from if I did I would happily put it up here. I haven't really done much research since the homs incident I simply base my belief on how much crap I came across in the beginnings.
All I have done is note that there are regular scare stories making assad out to be some psycho much like there was in the beginnings up to and including the homs massacre. I base my assumptions on that info.
When yet another story comes along labelling assad as a murderer I therefore read between the lines for the truth.
Its obvious to me that our media has picked a side and not reporting equally atrocities on the other side. It always does this in any conflict of course.All I have done is note that there are regular scare stories making assad out to be some psycho much like there was in the beginnings up to and including the homs massacre. I base my assumptions on that info.
When yet another story comes along labelling assad as a murderer I therefore read between the lines for the truth.
great it may well be true and these things may well be happening, so report, but what worries me is they are not reporting to such an extent what the other side is getting up to. our media is very one sided.
The video clips I am watching are not on youtube or any media like that. they are videos made by the FSA themselves showing beheading and torturing of civilians, and quite a few of them shooting each other by accident all while shouting allans snackbar like demented robots.
we will not be shown these.
I'm sure both sides are as bad as each other so im not going to pick a side in this. we should just leave them to it.
right at the start our media was saying the opposition had legitimacy. did it? who took a vote did anybody actually count? look at all the factions we have now its sectarian Sunni V Shiite V allawite and christians left there will be murdered shortly.
Its a huge cluster f
k let nature take its course. its lose, lose situation for us.meanwhile the one part of the FSA blow up a mosque.
If the US had blown up a mosque volunteers from bradford and luton would be frothing at the mouth and calling for death to the great satan.
Pesty said:
Its a huge cluster fk let nature take its course. its lose, lose situation for us.
meanwhile the one part of the FSA blow up a mosque.
If the US had blown up a mosque volunteers from bradford and luton would be frothing at the mouth and calling for death to the great satan.
The axis of evil speech by Bush condemned Syria ....... Leave them alone, or it will get uglier. Is Saudis decide to support Assad, would the US change its tune k let nature take its course. its lose, lose situation for us.meanwhile the one part of the FSA blow up a mosque.
If the US had blown up a mosque volunteers from bradford and luton would be frothing at the mouth and calling for death to the great satan.
Art0ir said:
What's the issue with Fisk? I would have thought him better placed to comment on the ME than most.
Regardless of the situation, he always tries to twist it to make the West look like the bad guys. Jordan was created out of the British Mandate, but that was a decision taken by the League of Nations, and the idea was that the Brits administered it until it was prepared for self-governance. Had we retained it, we would rightly be accused of colonialism, but we fulfilled our duties which only leaves people like Fisk to hint at British colonialism.
How long are people like him going to, inaccurately in this instance, take cheap shots at Britain for something that happened decades ago? If anyone tried to imply that Germany was the cause of today's problems due to their darker periods, they would, quite rightly, be chastised, yet it seems like Fisk and his ilk can continually refer to any point in history as an excuse to feed their self-loathing hatred of the West.
I don't agree with what Obama is doing, or Russia for that matter, but I don't believe that the regions problems are caused by the West's historical involvement. I think it's something far more deep rooted than that.
smegmore said:
Victor McDade said:
Assad and the 'rebels' deserve each other.
This sums it up perfectly.As for Sarah Palin's vacuous ramblings, she couldn't find her arse with both hands, let alone Syria on a map.
Victor McDade said:
Hague and Cameron are hell bent on upping the stakes and deepening our involvement in this civil war. I hope they fail miserably. Of course we should extend humanitarian support to Syrian civilians but to be frank, Assad and the 'rebels' deserve each other.
Don't disagree exceopt for the tiny fact that if they are left to their own devices, Lebanon, Iran, and probably Isreal will get drawn in, which in turn means Eygpt and Jordan at least as well.... so simply saying let 'em have each other is a great plan for the short term but a truly terrible one for the long term!Guam said:
Pappa Lurve said:
Don't disagree exceopt for the tiny fact that if they are left to their own devices, Lebanon, Iran, and probably Isreal will get drawn in, which in turn means Eygpt and Jordan at least as well.... so simply saying let 'em have each other is a great plan for the short term but a truly terrible one for the long term!
And the problem with any of that?Frankly we have to move on from the idea that we can exercise "gunboat diplomacy" any longer. There is no upside on this for our country, all there will be is more body-bags coming home and more grieving families, with no beneficial outcome for us <or anyone else I would suggest>. This is an ancient conflict and is being fought with modern weaponry. Leaving them to it is the only smart solution long term imho!
A significant increase inHezbollah reach with access unfettered to far more sophisticated weapons. That could mean that in effect much increaed Irannian influence in Lebanon, something they have been trying to fight against for a long time. If one is lucky, that will lead to nothig more than a few border skirmishes, but history suggests we wont be so lucky.
Then we have Syria itself which if it become a Hezbollah / Irannian outpost even more than it has been would become more unstable and increase Irans footprint and influence further.
This leaves a huge issue for Israel, Eygpt, Jordan etc which can only serve to increase tensions in the area. If those grow hot you then have US, EU, Russian and Chinese influence and interests all under threat, lots of people being killed, interuption to oil supplies and shipping and the assumption it will stay local is simply not credible.
Will it get that far, maybe, maybe not, but to suggest it is not an issue that directly affects us in the UK or the West in gereral is much the same as the US isolationist policy pre and at the beginning of WW2 but with a situation which could arguably develop much much faster.
That ignores the US response to a fundamental threat to the existance of Israel which disregarding ones views of Isreal is something you should be concerened about if you know anyone who relies on any of the medication developed there, any of the internet or mobile tech developed there, or indeed simply feels a sovereighn democratic nation hgas a right to self defence.
Then you have the Palestinians, already splitinto two areas, who will become even more of a punching bag with the obvious effects of that on Eygpt, Syria, Jordan and Israel to name just a few...
So yeah, there is a huge problem with that!
Mermaid said:
Pappa Lurve said:
So yeah, there is a huge problem with that!
Bring it on, natural selection.Course, really the Americans should have just said that in WW2 and realistically, those of us still alive would be chatting in German. Did America do it to protect Europe? Nope, it did it becuiase it had to to protect its own interests. Exactly the same applies.
I doubt it can be, but that is not the critical issue for the West. Part of that comes down to the British Mandate in the area which created a lot of that problem. The only way that can change anytime soon is, IMHO, either to simply redraw the map, creating at least 3 more states, which is unlikely realistically, or to give the people in the area the support and tools to work together which groups can do. Lok at N Ireland for a sort of example.
I am not suggesting boots on the ground in major numbers but I am saying we cannot afford to ignore the situation as it directly affects our security, our economy, and we also have a moral obligation, but we must tread carefully.
I am not suggesting boots on the ground in major numbers but I am saying we cannot afford to ignore the situation as it directly affects our security, our economy, and we also have a moral obligation, but we must tread carefully.
Guam said:
No there isn't its THEIR affair, if they want to slaughter each other then that's fine by me, in every attempt we have made in response to the hand-wringing luvvies warning of human rights excesses and apocalyptic outcomes, we have only succeeded in making matters infinitely worse and creating yet another bunch of resentful acolytes keen to bring mayhem to our streets.
This was going on long before we got involved <Islamic sectarian warfare> it will be going on long after we get the message.
Until these guys collectively become sickened THEMSELVES by the blood and Gore and decide to talk to each other, then it can never end and NOTHING we try to do will achieve a damned thing!.
History should have taught us by now to stay the fk out of this nonsense.
And when it affects you, will you be saying the same thing?This was going on long before we got involved <Islamic sectarian warfare> it will be going on long after we get the message.
Until these guys collectively become sickened THEMSELVES by the blood and Gore and decide to talk to each other, then it can never end and NOTHING we try to do will achieve a damned thing!.
History should have taught us by now to stay the f
k out of this nonsense. History shows nothing of the sort. It shows we need to understand the local culture and sensitivites before we wade in and work with, not impose. ME history is clearly a tad more complex that you seem to indicate but the lessons are equally so.
Mermaid said:
How do we deal with the Sunni/Shia mess - can it ever be solved by the West?
Not unless we choose (and manage), to wipe out one side of the argument. But that kind of thing is frowned upon and risky.So no. Internally the two sides of that argument have to realise they are being dumb, and the way to prosperity is just to get along with people. Outsiders doing anything stir up the tension.
Better off just keeping them contained than actively trying to get involved.
Munter said:
Mermaid said:
How do we deal with the Sunni/Shia mess - can it ever be solved by the West?
Not unless we choose (and manage), to wipe out one side of the argument. But that kind of thing is frowned upon and risky.So no. Internally the two sides of that argument have to realise they are being dumb, and the way to prosperity is just to get along with people. Outsiders doing anything stir up the tension.
Better off just keeping them contained than actively trying to get involved.
Guam said:
It already affects us, where have you been the last few years?
It is NOT our concern, we cannot stop this we can only make matters worse.
I am fully familiar with ME history thank you and was out there during "junior" with Saddam trying to blow my arse off.
The complexities of this type of stuff was brought into stark contrast by a Cab driver I used on one occasion, who had a brother with a Saudi Armoured Brigade at the front, yet who thought Saddam was a great Guy and was a true "Arab" for standing up to the west, even though this "True Arab" was likely to kill his Brother.
When even at a family level you encounter views as distinct as that one within the same religious subset then the sectarian nonsense should come as no surprise
Agreed that it has affected us, but that effect will become far more profound should the situation continue.It is NOT our concern, we cannot stop this we can only make matters worse.
I am fully familiar with ME history thank you and was out there during "junior" with Saddam trying to blow my arse off.
The complexities of this type of stuff was brought into stark contrast by a Cab driver I used on one occasion, who had a brother with a Saudi Armoured Brigade at the front, yet who thought Saddam was a great Guy and was a true "Arab" for standing up to the west, even though this "True Arab" was likely to kill his Brother.
When even at a family level you encounter views as distinct as that one within the same religious subset then the sectarian nonsense should come as no surprise
In respect you for being out there and fighting, thats great but with respect, it does not show any deep understanding of the last thousand years. Until people get through their heads that religion is a tiny, part of this, used as a cover for other issues, including to some extent tribalism but even that is a smaller issue than the press has us beleive, then the public and to some extent the press and some politicians will continue to lack the understanding needed to engage and be a significant and helpful part of the soloution.
I would much rather see us get involved now, strongly politically and econmomically than have to deal with a far more dangerpous military situation further down the line, and that history has ample examples of in the ME.
Guam said:
Mermaid said:
We need Saddam to sort this mess, and for peace in the ME.
Nooooo Iraq is sooo much better now................oh wait perhaps not 
the whole issue mate - they don't agree either on Western Powers or on ISreal on the street.
Having employed cracking on for 200 Palestinians in a JV with an Israeli compnay, having been in the Palestinian areas frequently and extensivly and having spent a lot of time there talking to poeple I see nothing which suggests they agree on that. In fact, my experiance shows most could not cvare less. What they want is some form of peace and leaders who will bring it to them as oppose to steal from them.
The West dopes not need to go in militarily but it does need to be there. To letit spin out of contriol will help no-one, damage most people to some extent to another and resuilt in a gfar more dangerous situation.
Having employed cracking on for 200 Palestinians in a JV with an Israeli compnay, having been in the Palestinian areas frequently and extensivly and having spent a lot of time there talking to poeple I see nothing which suggests they agree on that. In fact, my experiance shows most could not cvare less. What they want is some form of peace and leaders who will bring it to them as oppose to steal from them.
The West dopes not need to go in militarily but it does need to be there. To letit spin out of contriol will help no-one, damage most people to some extent to another and resuilt in a gfar more dangerous situation.
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