Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4
Discussion
ClaphamGT3 said:
Snoggledog said:
Jordan247 said:
I was thinking about this, and I wonder if perhaps the US gives the Russians a heads up as I doubt even the Russians and stupid enough to attack the POTUS.
Why? At it's simplest, he's no more than an elected official. Would you say the same about say Macron or Sunak?Any Russian attack on Biden would risk very significant escalation for absolutely zero tactical or strategic advantage as Harris would be in office as President/acting President within minutes of Biden being killed or incapacitated.
Incredible he’s been there through. Massive message sent,
Confirmed that US gave Russia the heads up:
https://twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/162764911...
https://twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/162764911...
Tweet said:
The White House contacted the Russian Federation before Biden's trip to "ensure deconfliction to avoid any miscalculations that could lead to direct conflict between the two nuclear powers."
- Associated Press
- Associated Press
Snoggledog said:
Jordan247 said:
I was thinking about this, and I wonder if perhaps the US gives the Russians a heads up as I doubt even the Russians and stupid enough to attack the POTUS.
Why? At it's simplest, he's no more than an elected official. Would you say the same about say Macron or Sunak?Tartan Pixie said:
To be fair to the Afghans a talib (student) was often a person sent to a madrasa when his dad went to war. They fought for their country one generation to the next and won.
Problem is that now the Americans have left the 'students' have got to do day to day things like administrating the country, which doesn't come easy to young men who have only known war. The following article honestly makes me want to cry but I'm posting it to show there is no comparison between Ukraine and Afghanistan except at the most superficial level.
New Lives in the City: How Taleban have experienced life in Kabul - https://www.afghanistan-analysts.org/en/reports/co...
Sorry, I wasn't meaning anything more than that despite western support in both cases in one country it clearly was wanted, whereas in the other there was no desire for it. No matter if the west wanted a war with Russia if there was no support for it in Ukraine there would have been no war or it would have been very short. That seems to be forgotten about by those who push the "it's the US who's running this" line. Problem is that now the Americans have left the 'students' have got to do day to day things like administrating the country, which doesn't come easy to young men who have only known war. The following article honestly makes me want to cry but I'm posting it to show there is no comparison between Ukraine and Afghanistan except at the most superficial level.
New Lives in the City: How Taleban have experienced life in Kabul - https://www.afghanistan-analysts.org/en/reports/co...
Puggit said:
Confirmed that US gave Russia the heads up:
https://twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/162764911...
fhttps://twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/162764911...
Tweet said:
The White House contacted the Russian Federation before Biden's trip to "ensure deconfliction to avoid any miscalculations that could lead to direct conflict between the two nuclear powers."
- Associated Press
- Associated Press
king ell, thats a powerful and clear message, on top of actually visiting. Imagine the planning that went into that visit, I mean any trip by the president is a massive undertaking, but into a warzone notches it up a fair bit. Well worth it for the message it sends.
Just watched Biden's speech in Kyiv.
Something that is becoming increasingly clear, in my opinion, is that the support for Ukraine isn't going to diminish any time soon. Quite the opposite in fact - there's a real sense of heels being properly dug in.
A couple of things intrigue me. The question of an end-game is one. Russia won't give up unless they're comprehensively trounced, so the question of Ukraine's ability to deliver said trouncing and push the Russians out of the country entirely becomes ever more important, as I see it.
The other question that intrigues me, and related to the above, is Crimea. I'd love to know what the US and their partners are saying to Zelensky in that regard. If Ukraine are given the support to re-take Crimea, that will become the big pivot point in this conflict, imo.
Or will they stop short of it?
Something that is becoming increasingly clear, in my opinion, is that the support for Ukraine isn't going to diminish any time soon. Quite the opposite in fact - there's a real sense of heels being properly dug in.
A couple of things intrigue me. The question of an end-game is one. Russia won't give up unless they're comprehensively trounced, so the question of Ukraine's ability to deliver said trouncing and push the Russians out of the country entirely becomes ever more important, as I see it.
The other question that intrigues me, and related to the above, is Crimea. I'd love to know what the US and their partners are saying to Zelensky in that regard. If Ukraine are given the support to re-take Crimea, that will become the big pivot point in this conflict, imo.
Or will they stop short of it?
Edited by TheJimi on Monday 20th February 13:42
AstonZagato said:
Driller said:
AstonZagato said:
Yes, that is what should have happened. The trouble was, that the assumption the West made was that Russia's three day "Special Military Operation" would be exactly that. That Zelenski would flee / be killed and that Russian tanks would have fking do it anyway isn’t it dumbass fk you now understand that camped in Kyiv. That didn't happen. Then Politiicians worried about how to deal with their gas deficits and the risk of a larger escalation. It is only slowly (too slowly) that we have learnt that Russian threats are toothless and that we can do without Russian O&G.
AstonZ, the intelligent, calm and reasoned tone to your posts is very refreshing, I’m getting too old for juvenile forum squabbling, so much appreciated.king do it anyway isn’t it dumbass fk you now understand that camped in Kyiv. That didn't happen. Then Politiicians worried about how to deal with their gas deficits and the risk of a larger escalation. It is only slowly (too slowly) that we have learnt that Russian threats are toothless and that we can do without Russian O&G.You could teach some people here a thing or two.
Your explanation and argument are compelling and helps to understand perhaps there really is, sadly, no real alternative but by principle, I still don’t think you can squarely place 100% of the blame on one side, even if it’s unequal. I hope also at least that no one is deliberately prolonging things even more to make a quick big buck.
That is sinister!
AZ pm me please
Edited by Driller on Monday 20th February 13:36
TheJimi said:
Just watched Biden's speech in Kyiv.
Something that is becoming increasingly clear, in my opinion, is that the support for Ukraine isn't going to diminish any time soon. Quite the opposite in fact - there's a real sense of heels being properly dug in.
A couple of things intrigue me. The question of an end-game is one. Russia won't give up unless they're comprehensively trounced, so the question of Ukraine's ability to deliver said trouncing and push the Russians out of the country entirely becomes ever more important, as I see it.
The other question that intrigues me, and related to the above, is Crimea. I'd love to know what the US and their partners are saying to Zelensky in that regard. If Ukraine are given the support to re-take Crimea, that will become the big pivot point in this conflict, imo.
Or will they stop short of it?
It's hard to read the tea leaves regarding future support. I think Politico are a fairly reliable source and it would seem that the military think there is little prospect of Ukraine taking Crimea - and indeed according to Blinken it may be a Russian "redline" (hard though it is to believe that are entitled to have them). Something that is becoming increasingly clear, in my opinion, is that the support for Ukraine isn't going to diminish any time soon. Quite the opposite in fact - there's a real sense of heels being properly dug in.
A couple of things intrigue me. The question of an end-game is one. Russia won't give up unless they're comprehensively trounced, so the question of Ukraine's ability to deliver said trouncing and push the Russians out of the country entirely becomes ever more important, as I see it.
The other question that intrigues me, and related to the above, is Crimea. I'd love to know what the US and their partners are saying to Zelensky in that regard. If Ukraine are given the support to re-take Crimea, that will become the big pivot point in this conflict, imo.
Or will they stop short of it?
Edited by TheJimi on Monday 20th February 13:42
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/17/ukraine-w...
Equally, Ukraine being where it is today was a pretty unlikely outcome a year ago, so making predictions is something of a fool's errand.
However, and ignoring my own advice, some sort of grubby deal will likely be the end game here. I just struggle to see how either side "wins".
Very little is said about the condition of Ukraine, but much of their industrial base is destroyed and their energy infrastructure is in bits. On top of arms they need cold hard cash - not loans. A rebuild from seized assets is likely to be mired in a legal quagmire for a very long time.
Could someone post to acknowledge the weirdness that has happened please?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Thank you. Whatever disagreement I have with someone on a subject I can’t believe it would go this far
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Thank you. Whatever disagreement I have with someone on a subject I can’t believe it would go this far
ant1973 said:
TheJimi said:
Just watched Biden's speech in Kyiv.
Something that is becoming increasingly clear, in my opinion, is that the support for Ukraine isn't going to diminish any time soon. Quite the opposite in fact - there's a real sense of heels being properly dug in.
A couple of things intrigue me. The question of an end-game is one. Russia won't give up unless they're comprehensively trounced, so the question of Ukraine's ability to deliver said trouncing and push the Russians out of the country entirely becomes ever more important, as I see it.
The other question that intrigues me, and related to the above, is Crimea. I'd love to know what the US and their partners are saying to Zelensky in that regard. If Ukraine are given the support to re-take Crimea, that will become the big pivot point in this conflict, imo.
Or will they stop short of it?
It's hard to read the tea leaves regarding future support. I think Politico are a fairly reliable source and it would seem that the military think there is little prospect of Ukraine taking Crimea - and indeed according to Blinken it may be a Russian "redline" (hard though it is to believe that are entitled to have them). Something that is becoming increasingly clear, in my opinion, is that the support for Ukraine isn't going to diminish any time soon. Quite the opposite in fact - there's a real sense of heels being properly dug in.
A couple of things intrigue me. The question of an end-game is one. Russia won't give up unless they're comprehensively trounced, so the question of Ukraine's ability to deliver said trouncing and push the Russians out of the country entirely becomes ever more important, as I see it.
The other question that intrigues me, and related to the above, is Crimea. I'd love to know what the US and their partners are saying to Zelensky in that regard. If Ukraine are given the support to re-take Crimea, that will become the big pivot point in this conflict, imo.
Or will they stop short of it?
Edited by TheJimi on Monday 20th February 13:42
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/17/ukraine-w...
Equally, Ukraine being where it is today was a pretty unlikely outcome a year ago, so making predictions is something of a fool's errand.
However, and ignoring my own advice, some sort of grubby deal will likely be the end game here. I just struggle to see how either side "wins".
Very little is said about the condition of Ukraine, but much of their industrial base is destroyed and their energy infrastructure is in bits. On top of arms they need cold hard cash - not loans. A rebuild from seized assets is likely to be mired in a legal quagmire for a very long time.
Crimea does indeed appear to be regarded as a Russian red line, but then, the supply of tanks, if we're to believe some sources, were a Russian red line as well, so...
As for rebuilding, when the dust settles, I think we'll see even more resources being flung at Ukraine.
ant1973 said:
It's hard to read the tea leaves regarding future support. I think Politico are a fairly reliable source and it would seem that the military think there is little prospect of Ukraine taking Crimea - and indeed according to Blinken it may be a Russian "redline" (hard though it is to believe that are entitled to have them).
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/17/ukraine-w...
Equally, Ukraine being where it is today was a pretty unlikely outcome a year ago, so making predictions is something of a fool's errand.
However, and ignoring my own advice, some sort of grubby deal will likely be the end game here. I just struggle to see how either side "wins".
Very little is said about the condition of Ukraine, but much of their industrial base is destroyed and their energy infrastructure is in bits. On top of arms they need cold hard cash - not loans. A rebuild from seized assets is likely to be mired in a legal quagmire for a very long time.
...and one of the ways they can generate that cash is from exploiting the O&G reserves off Crimea. The world also needs to replace Russian production thereof so I can quite see the Ukrainians taking Crimea back and then knocking Putin's silly bridge down for good measure.https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/17/ukraine-w...
Equally, Ukraine being where it is today was a pretty unlikely outcome a year ago, so making predictions is something of a fool's errand.
However, and ignoring my own advice, some sort of grubby deal will likely be the end game here. I just struggle to see how either side "wins".
Very little is said about the condition of Ukraine, but much of their industrial base is destroyed and their energy infrastructure is in bits. On top of arms they need cold hard cash - not loans. A rebuild from seized assets is likely to be mired in a legal quagmire for a very long time.
Until the Russians can show themselves to be contributing, peaceful and above all reliable global citizens they can FRO.
The problem is that they are storifying
s, its become so ingrained that they don't even realise how stupid they look half the time.ant1973 said:
It's hard to read the tea leaves regarding future support. I think Politico are a fairly reliable source and it would seem that the military think there is little prospect of Ukraine taking Crimea - and indeed according to Blinken it may be a Russian "redline" (hard though it is to believe that are entitled to have them).
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/17/ukraine-w...
Equally, Ukraine being where it is today was a pretty unlikely outcome a year ago, so making predictions is something of a fool's errand.
However, and ignoring my own advice, some sort of grubby deal will likely be the end game here. I just struggle to see how either side "wins".
Very little is said about the condition of Ukraine, but much of their industrial base is destroyed and their energy infrastructure is in bits. On top of arms they need cold hard cash - not loans. A rebuild from seized assets is likely to be mired in a legal quagmire for a very long time.
"The U.S. isn’t actively encouraging Ukraine to retake Crimea, but that the decision is Kyiv’s alone"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/17/ukraine-w...
Equally, Ukraine being where it is today was a pretty unlikely outcome a year ago, so making predictions is something of a fool's errand.
However, and ignoring my own advice, some sort of grubby deal will likely be the end game here. I just struggle to see how either side "wins".
Very little is said about the condition of Ukraine, but much of their industrial base is destroyed and their energy infrastructure is in bits. On top of arms they need cold hard cash - not loans. A rebuild from seized assets is likely to be mired in a legal quagmire for a very long time.
This is amusingly weasel worded.... It's Kiev's decision but it's up to the US to provide the means that can enable it at the end of the day so it's far from just Ukraine's decision...
How far support extends isn't just an issue of whether it's present as at least some element of support is almost certainly going to remain. It's more a question of support to what end - arming them up sufficiently to prevent further loss of territory particularly westwards in future is quite a different thing to arming them up sufficiently in the short term to allow for retaking currently lost territory to return to Feb22 borders nevermind 2014 borders.....
TheJimi said:
Just watched Biden's speech in Kyiv.
Something that is becoming increasingly clear, in my opinion, is that the support for Ukraine isn't going to diminish any time soon. Quite the opposite in fact - there's a real sense of heels being properly dug in.
A couple of things intrigue me. The question of an end-game is one. Russia won't give up unless they're comprehensively trounced, so the question of Ukraine's ability to deliver said trouncing and push the Russians out of the country entirely becomes ever more important, as I see it.
The other question that intrigues me, and related to the above, is Crimea. I'd love to know what the US and their partners are saying to Zelensky in that regard. If Ukraine are given the support to re-take Crimea, that will become the big pivot point in this conflict, imo.
Or will they stop short of it?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/02/16/ukraine-warned-against-attempting-retake-crimea-putin/Something that is becoming increasingly clear, in my opinion, is that the support for Ukraine isn't going to diminish any time soon. Quite the opposite in fact - there's a real sense of heels being properly dug in.
A couple of things intrigue me. The question of an end-game is one. Russia won't give up unless they're comprehensively trounced, so the question of Ukraine's ability to deliver said trouncing and push the Russians out of the country entirely becomes ever more important, as I see it.
The other question that intrigues me, and related to the above, is Crimea. I'd love to know what the US and their partners are saying to Zelensky in that regard. If Ukraine are given the support to re-take Crimea, that will become the big pivot point in this conflict, imo.
Or will they stop short of it?
Edited by TheJimi on Monday 20th February 13:42
Blinken had something to say about Crimea last week…whether he was speaking officially or not who knows. I don’t think there’s been anything from the White House saying otherwise until Biden said today about Ukraine’s “territorial integrity”. I guess that is Blinken on the naughty step then…….
Edited by Cheib on Monday 20th February 14:39
Jordan247 said:
I was thinking about this, and I wonder if perhaps the US gives the Russians a heads up as I doubt even the Russians and stupid enough to attack the POTUS.
Exactly that. How do they get him in and out safely? Aircraft carriers, submarines and cruise missiles. Putin will have been told, nothing will cross the border today. Imagine what would happen if something exploded within 100 miles of the American President. Even Putin isn't that stupid.BikeBikeBIke said:
God he pissed me right off when I went to see one of his gigs a few months ago. Had no idea that he was such a political, shouty nob who makes every gig an indoctrination session. He can FRO.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff