Who's living with a hydrogen fuel cell car?
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
There are threads running into hundreds of replies with endless people claiming hydrogen is a better replacement for ICE than battery cars are - there must be some fuel cell car drivers on this forum!?
All of PH, not one...?
No bus drivers on PH?All of PH, not one...?
There are quite a few Hydrogen powered buses in the UK, I presume they are fuel cell not IC?
It makes more sense for a vehicle that works 18+ hours a day.
TheDeuce said:
There are threads running into hundreds of replies with endless people claiming hydrogen is a better replacement for ICE than battery cars are - there must be some fuel cell car drivers on this forum!?
This is easily explained.People are used to doing the same stupid things over and over again. Like not filling up at home and instead having to go to a petrol station to get fuel at ridiculous prices and wasting at least 70% of it while burning the stuff, harming their surroundings in the process. They like it, because they know what they've got. EV's are too different, so they don't want them.
Then they hear the marketing about HEFC cars: go to a filling station, as per 'normal', pay a bit less money (nobody tells them it's heavily subsidised at the moment and that there are hardly any filling stations) and waste a lot of energy along the way. Compared to EV's, which they have no experience with, it sounds so much like what they're used to that they believe it's great, even though they haven't a clue. So they get on that bandwagon and extol the virtues of technology they've never used and an energy transfer system they've never experienced. They are desperate to overlook that >95% of hydrogen 'fuel' is currently made by steam reforming of natural gas and other light hydrocarbons, and partial oxidation of heavier hydrocarbons (ie. fossil fuels) and that making truly sustainable hydrogen by electrolysis will always cost three or four times more than just putting electricity into EV batteries.
TheDeuce said:
All of PH, not one...?
There might be some. But they're the ones who do have experience with a HEFC car and the H2 infrastructure. 'Nuff said.Edited by tr3a on Sunday 11th February 16:02
OutInTheShed said:
No bus drivers on PH?
There are quite a few Hydrogen powered buses in the UK, I presume they are fuel cell not IC?
It makes more sense for a vehicle that works 18+ hours a day.
….that’s depot based and the H2 filling infrastructure will have been provided as a part of the deal. Still have to question where the H2 is coming from though. If it’s being produced on site via renewable energy, then fair play, but if it’s being trucked in from who knows where then they’d probably be better off just running an LPG ICE fleet in terms of well to wheel carbon emissions. That doesn’t attract the grant $$$ though, making it an obvious farce.There are quite a few Hydrogen powered buses in the UK, I presume they are fuel cell not IC?
It makes more sense for a vehicle that works 18+ hours a day.
Alickadoo said:
James May has got one - hasn't he?
Yep, he's on his second in fact, assuming he still has it.He announced it as 'an experiment', made a couple of short videos and then never followed up. Is he happily bumbling around the UK in his fuel cell car now? Seems borderline impossible given there are hardly any filling stations anymore. Yet check registrations and people are for some reason still buying these cars - not a clue why or how they fuel them
TheDeuce said:
not a clue why or how they fuel them
Home made?Check out the flame speed characteristics....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kjt3PcDxaQ
And just in case anyone thinks I'm serious, James' Miria holds half a million times as much by mass as what was in the 100 ml bottle.
Oh, the joys of of a fuel that needs compressing to 10,000 psi.
GT9 said:
TheDeuce said:
not a clue why or how they fuel them
Home made?Check out the flame speed characteristics....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kjt3PcDxaQ
And just in case anyone thinks I'm serious, James' Miria holds half a million times as much by mass as what was in the 100 ml bottle.
Oh, the joys of of a fuel that needs compressing to 10,000 psi.
That would go some way to explaining the delay in James' follow up video.
Edited by TheDeuce on Sunday 11th February 23:56
dvs_dave said:
….that’s depot based and the H2 filling infrastructure will have been provided as a part of the deal. Still have to question where the H2 is coming from though. If it’s being produced on site via renewable energy, then fair play, but if it’s being trucked in from who knows where then they’d probably be better off just running an LPG ICE fleet in terms of well to wheel carbon emissions. That doesn’t attract the grant $$$ though, making it an obvious farce.
If buses aren't belching fumes at me, making a lot of noise, or trying to take me off my bike with diesel spills, I don't greatly care where their hydrogen comes from.At the moment H2 is readily available from the oil and gas industry.
In future it will come from electrolysis of wind power.
It's a bit chicken and egg, nobody is going to start generating green hydrogen before anyone has a good use for it.
You can't jump to a clean world in one step, that is why there is a 30 year roadmap to 2050.
H2 public transport is just one cog in the machine.
USing fuel cells for things like buses might have some useful development outcomes in other areas.
Clean air in cities is a big and worthwhile thing, setting aside anything to do with MMGW.
FCEV are more practical than BEV for buses.
And potentially good for taxis.
IMHO, for the next 15 years at least, no place in private cars.
OutInTheShed said:
If buses aren't belching fumes at me, making a lot of noise, or trying to take me off my bike with diesel spills, I don't greatly care where their hydrogen comes from.
At the moment H2 is readily available from the oil and gas industry.
In future it will come from electrolysis of wind power.
It's a bit chicken and egg, nobody is going to start generating green hydrogen before anyone has a good use for it.
You can't jump to a clean world in one step, that is why there is a 30 year roadmap to 2050.
H2 public transport is just one cog in the machine.
USing fuel cells for things like buses might have some useful development outcomes in other areas.
Clean air in cities is a big and worthwhile thing, setting aside anything to do with MMGW.
FCEV are more practical than BEV for buses.
And potentially good for taxis.
IMHO, for the next 15 years at least, no place in private cars.
An LPG fleet would meet those criteria without the farce of where the H2 is coming from (ie gas) and emitting less overall carbon emissions in the process. This is the pragmatic stepping stone solution whilst practical H2 tech is in gestation. But ultimately it’ll be stillborn as battery tech will evolve in that time making H2 an obsolete solution looking for a problem. Shipping and aviation being the last holdouts, and that probably being much easier to solve with e-fuels if it really comes down to it.At the moment H2 is readily available from the oil and gas industry.
In future it will come from electrolysis of wind power.
It's a bit chicken and egg, nobody is going to start generating green hydrogen before anyone has a good use for it.
You can't jump to a clean world in one step, that is why there is a 30 year roadmap to 2050.
H2 public transport is just one cog in the machine.
USing fuel cells for things like buses might have some useful development outcomes in other areas.
Clean air in cities is a big and worthwhile thing, setting aside anything to do with MMGW.
FCEV are more practical than BEV for buses.
And potentially good for taxis.
IMHO, for the next 15 years at least, no place in private cars.
Still, they serve as a good way to soak up provincial grant dollars from gullible local councilmen with delusions of grandeur.
tr3a said:
This is easily explained.
People are used to doing the same stupid things over and over again. Like not filling up at home and instead having to go to a petrol station to get fuel at ridiculous prices and wasting at least 70% of it while burning the stuff, harming their surroundings in the process. They like it, because they know what they've got. EV's are too different, so they don't want them.
Then they hear the marketing about HEFC cars: go to a filling station, as per 'normal', pay a bit less money (nobody tells them it's heavily subsidised at the moment and that there are hardly any filling stations) and waste a lot of energy along the way. Compared to EV's, which they have no experience with, it sounds so much like what they're used to that they believe it's great, even though they haven't a clue. So they get on that bandwagon and extol the virtues of technology they've never used and an energy transfer system they've never experienced. They are desperate to overlook that >95% of hydrogen 'fuel' is currently made by steam reforming of natural gas and other light hydrocarbons, and partial oxidation of heavier hydrocarbons (ie. fossil fuels) and that making truly sustainable hydrogen by electrolysis will always cost three or four times more than just putting electricity into EV batteries.
Yep - this is the best post ever on this subject and for why people go on social media claiming 'Hydrogen is the future' People are used to doing the same stupid things over and over again. Like not filling up at home and instead having to go to a petrol station to get fuel at ridiculous prices and wasting at least 70% of it while burning the stuff, harming their surroundings in the process. They like it, because they know what they've got. EV's are too different, so they don't want them.
Then they hear the marketing about HEFC cars: go to a filling station, as per 'normal', pay a bit less money (nobody tells them it's heavily subsidised at the moment and that there are hardly any filling stations) and waste a lot of energy along the way. Compared to EV's, which they have no experience with, it sounds so much like what they're used to that they believe it's great, even though they haven't a clue. So they get on that bandwagon and extol the virtues of technology they've never used and an energy transfer system they've never experienced. They are desperate to overlook that >95% of hydrogen 'fuel' is currently made by steam reforming of natural gas and other light hydrocarbons, and partial oxidation of heavier hydrocarbons (ie. fossil fuels) and that making truly sustainable hydrogen by electrolysis will always cost three or four times more than just putting electricity into EV batteries.
SDK said:
tr3a said:
This is easily explained.
People are used to doing the same stupid things over and over again. Like not filling up at home and instead having to go to a petrol station to get fuel at ridiculous prices and wasting at least 70% of it while burning the stuff, harming their surroundings in the process. They like it, because they know what they've got. EV's are too different, so they don't want them.
Then they hear the marketing about HEFC cars: go to a filling station, as per 'normal', pay a bit less money (nobody tells them it's heavily subsidised at the moment and that there are hardly any filling stations) and waste a lot of energy along the way. Compared to EV's, which they have no experience with, it sounds so much like what they're used to that they believe it's great, even though they haven't a clue. So they get on that bandwagon and extol the virtues of technology they've never used and an energy transfer system they've never experienced. They are desperate to overlook that >95% of hydrogen 'fuel' is currently made by steam reforming of natural gas and other light hydrocarbons, and partial oxidation of heavier hydrocarbons (ie. fossil fuels) and that making truly sustainable hydrogen by electrolysis will always cost three or four times more than just putting electricity into EV batteries.
Yep - this is the best post ever on this subject and for why people go on social media claiming 'Hydrogen is the future' People are used to doing the same stupid things over and over again. Like not filling up at home and instead having to go to a petrol station to get fuel at ridiculous prices and wasting at least 70% of it while burning the stuff, harming their surroundings in the process. They like it, because they know what they've got. EV's are too different, so they don't want them.
Then they hear the marketing about HEFC cars: go to a filling station, as per 'normal', pay a bit less money (nobody tells them it's heavily subsidised at the moment and that there are hardly any filling stations) and waste a lot of energy along the way. Compared to EV's, which they have no experience with, it sounds so much like what they're used to that they believe it's great, even though they haven't a clue. So they get on that bandwagon and extol the virtues of technology they've never used and an energy transfer system they've never experienced. They are desperate to overlook that >95% of hydrogen 'fuel' is currently made by steam reforming of natural gas and other light hydrocarbons, and partial oxidation of heavier hydrocarbons (ie. fossil fuels) and that making truly sustainable hydrogen by electrolysis will always cost three or four times more than just putting electricity into EV batteries.
Megaflow said:
Exactly. The number of people on social media banging on about hydrogen and how clean it is, yet as soon as you ask them about the colour of hydrogent they are talking about and they have no clue what you are talking about!
Same on the hydrogen threads here. Those that know it can;t work can give endless very easy to understand reasons for it being hopeless. Those that are pro hydrogen FCEV don't seem to know anything much about it, they also can't seem to understand the reasons they are given by others as to why it can't work.They just like it.. so choose to believe/have hope it'll happen. Ironically if it did, they would all hate it! They see it as an alternative to EV's which they don't like for whatever reason, they can't seem to grasp that a fuel cell car is also an EV, just a more complex, slower, more expensive to run version..
OutInTheShed said:
If buses aren't belching fumes at me, making a lot of noise, or trying to take me off my bike with diesel spills, I don't greatly care where their hydrogen comes from.
At the moment H2 is readily available from the oil and gas industry.
In future it will come from electrolysis of wind power.
It's a bit chicken and egg, nobody is going to start generating green hydrogen before anyone has a good use for it.
You can't jump to a clean world in one step, that is why there is a 30 year roadmap to 2050.
H2 public transport is just one cog in the machine.
USing fuel cells for things like buses might have some useful development outcomes in other areas.
Clean air in cities is a big and worthwhile thing, setting aside anything to do with MMGW.
FCEV are more practical than BEV for buses.
And potentially good for taxis.
IMHO, for the next 15 years at least, no place in private cars.
Why not just use the much cheaper, must less maintenance, much safer batter buses we already have everywhere?At the moment H2 is readily available from the oil and gas industry.
In future it will come from electrolysis of wind power.
It's a bit chicken and egg, nobody is going to start generating green hydrogen before anyone has a good use for it.
You can't jump to a clean world in one step, that is why there is a 30 year roadmap to 2050.
H2 public transport is just one cog in the machine.
USing fuel cells for things like buses might have some useful development outcomes in other areas.
Clean air in cities is a big and worthwhile thing, setting aside anything to do with MMGW.
FCEV are more practical than BEV for buses.
And potentially good for taxis.
IMHO, for the next 15 years at least, no place in private cars.
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