Failure to stop at red-light. Advice sought.
Discussion
Hello, I need some advice please.
On 30th January 2004 I was driving across Byker Bridge in Newcastle, it's a two lane piece (one lane a bus lane, one a normal car lane) and a taxi, while some distance behind was swerving between the 2 lanes. As we approached the end a juntion the limit dropped to 30mph (I slowed as I always do - I'm one of those people who obey speed limits) and the taxi came behind me very close. This had me worried.
It was a wet night, and the lights turned amber ahead, due to the previous antics of said taxi, conditions of the ground and the proximity of the lights I deemed it safer to travel through amber lights than it was to stop harshly. It transpired however that the lights had turned red, and had been for some 1.5 seconds due to the NIP we receieved some 8 days later.
We appealed, and sent an appropiate letter back to the Patnership and a month later recieved a "we are looking into it" letter.
16 weeks after the "offence" we received another letter, this time saying prosecution will continue and that a NIP was enclosed addressed to me. They also included pictures.
A couple of points immediatly - there was no NIP in the envelope, but rather it followed later in a seperate envelope. The pictures are off a Ford Escort Van at 7:30 not our car at 21:06. The NIP however is correct.
Were do we stand? I stand by my actions, and indeed would do like to have thought I would do the same given the same circumstances (not so true now - too nervous). I'm not the type of person to try and wiggle out using "backhand" tactics, but this strikes of been entirely unfair. Not only did I wait 4weeks to hear anything regarding the appeal, but it then took a further 12 weeks for them to do anything about it (it is suggested this is because Dad called them to enquire a week or so back - he works as a civillian in the Police but appreciated that calling may make matters worse).
I'm panicing here, indeed typing this has me somewhat shakey as I really can't have points on my licence, I simply couldn't afford it and I don't like the shame of it given the fact that I think I did the right thing. Any advice would be gratefully recieved!
I'm off to work until 10pm now, so won't be able to reply until then. Please help. Thanks.
On 30th January 2004 I was driving across Byker Bridge in Newcastle, it's a two lane piece (one lane a bus lane, one a normal car lane) and a taxi, while some distance behind was swerving between the 2 lanes. As we approached the end a juntion the limit dropped to 30mph (I slowed as I always do - I'm one of those people who obey speed limits) and the taxi came behind me very close. This had me worried.
It was a wet night, and the lights turned amber ahead, due to the previous antics of said taxi, conditions of the ground and the proximity of the lights I deemed it safer to travel through amber lights than it was to stop harshly. It transpired however that the lights had turned red, and had been for some 1.5 seconds due to the NIP we receieved some 8 days later.
We appealed, and sent an appropiate letter back to the Patnership and a month later recieved a "we are looking into it" letter.
16 weeks after the "offence" we received another letter, this time saying prosecution will continue and that a NIP was enclosed addressed to me. They also included pictures.
A couple of points immediatly - there was no NIP in the envelope, but rather it followed later in a seperate envelope. The pictures are off a Ford Escort Van at 7:30 not our car at 21:06. The NIP however is correct.
Were do we stand? I stand by my actions, and indeed would do like to have thought I would do the same given the same circumstances (not so true now - too nervous). I'm not the type of person to try and wiggle out using "backhand" tactics, but this strikes of been entirely unfair. Not only did I wait 4weeks to hear anything regarding the appeal, but it then took a further 12 weeks for them to do anything about it (it is suggested this is because Dad called them to enquire a week or so back - he works as a civillian in the Police but appreciated that calling may make matters worse).
I'm panicing here, indeed typing this has me somewhat shakey as I really can't have points on my licence, I simply couldn't afford it and I don't like the shame of it given the fact that I think I did the right thing. Any advice would be gratefully recieved!
I'm off to work until 10pm now, so won't be able to reply until then. Please help. Thanks.
firstly it sounds like you did the most sensible thing in the circumstances as you describe them.
What is odd is that in investigating it they a) feel there is something to answer, and b) they think you were a van at 7:30pm. Likelihood is crossed wires somewhere on sending.
I would suggest you sent the note back with a very polite letter, yet again restating your actions, why they were the right thing to do, and how what they have sent you is of an entirely different incident.
And see what happens.... In one sense you dont have a leg to stand on cos you went through a red light (and like speeding its a nice binary offence!)...but I would be amazed that they would pursue it if you gave them just cause to review.
Good luck
Night
What is odd is that in investigating it they a) feel there is something to answer, and b) they think you were a van at 7:30pm. Likelihood is crossed wires somewhere on sending.
I would suggest you sent the note back with a very polite letter, yet again restating your actions, why they were the right thing to do, and how what they have sent you is of an entirely different incident.
And see what happens.... In one sense you dont have a leg to stand on cos you went through a red light (and like speeding its a nice binary offence!)...but I would be amazed that they would pursue it if you gave them just cause to review.
Good luck
Night
IIRC, previous examples of this (very sensible thing to do under the circumstances, and I would likely do the same) have been that - if no other car (taxi) appears in the photograph (and they seldom do) - they will continue with the prosecution.
The evidence they collect is essentially de facto limited to that which will support their case. You, on the other hand, have no practical opportunity to collect evidence in your defence or to cast doubt upon their statement(s). that's what makes it binary, and to all intents and purposes an "absolute" offence - in that they is no defence (available to you, by vitue of the lack of contrary evidence).
On the other hand, I heard (from a solicitor friend) of a case where the accused claimed to have been stationary in the junction with the lights on green and been snapped, NIPped and summonsed because a motorcycle went through on red and turned left behind him, triggering the red-light camera but not appearing on it. Based on the pictures and Expert Witness testimony (for the defence, the CPS didn't bother) the magistrates felt there was a reasonable doubt and after discussion, the CPS dropped the case.
Streaky
The evidence they collect is essentially de facto limited to that which will support their case. You, on the other hand, have no practical opportunity to collect evidence in your defence or to cast doubt upon their statement(s). that's what makes it binary, and to all intents and purposes an "absolute" offence - in that they is no defence (available to you, by vitue of the lack of contrary evidence).
On the other hand, I heard (from a solicitor friend) of a case where the accused claimed to have been stationary in the junction with the lights on green and been snapped, NIPped and summonsed because a motorcycle went through on red and turned left behind him, triggering the red-light camera but not appearing on it. Based on the pictures and Expert Witness testimony (for the defence, the CPS didn't bother) the magistrates felt there was a reasonable doubt and after discussion, the CPS dropped the case.
Streaky
Firstly Traffic lights do not just appear. They are visible on approach. A Green means the next stage is stopping so some caution should be applied on approach and more so on a wet road. I say no more.
Fail to conform is an offence attracting service of a NOIP which you state you got after 8 days - well within the 14 days required. Good service. No loophole.
The Notice should give TIME and date of offence. The Photograph gives a different time and vehicle and presumably a VRM that is not connected to you. Is there any discrepancy on the vehicle VRM, if quoted on the NOIP, to that shown on Photo.
28 days on the Conditional Offer have expired.
They say they are going ahead with a Prosecution.
Suggested one of two courses open:
1. Go for a Not Guilty at Court when CPS will parade all available evidence with the summons which will prove, if that is the case, your innocence. But bear in mind the Photo you mention may relate to another incident and mixed up at Admin so that they give correct details and you are doomed.
2. Write back to them outlining the apparent discrepancies which they may admit as a mistake and either write off or still pursue.
In my shoes I would consider Option 2.
You have been involved in a run of the mill motoring incident so stop shaking (sign of a nervous driver?)
They cannot hang you and IT WILL be resolved in time so stop worrying.
DVD
Fail to conform is an offence attracting service of a NOIP which you state you got after 8 days - well within the 14 days required. Good service. No loophole.
The Notice should give TIME and date of offence. The Photograph gives a different time and vehicle and presumably a VRM that is not connected to you. Is there any discrepancy on the vehicle VRM, if quoted on the NOIP, to that shown on Photo.
28 days on the Conditional Offer have expired.
They say they are going ahead with a Prosecution.
Suggested one of two courses open:
1. Go for a Not Guilty at Court when CPS will parade all available evidence with the summons which will prove, if that is the case, your innocence. But bear in mind the Photo you mention may relate to another incident and mixed up at Admin so that they give correct details and you are doomed.
2. Write back to them outlining the apparent discrepancies which they may admit as a mistake and either write off or still pursue.
In my shoes I would consider Option 2.
You have been involved in a run of the mill motoring incident so stop shaking (sign of a nervous driver?)
They cannot hang you and IT WILL be resolved in time so stop worrying.
DVD
I would keep contesting this if you believe you were doing the safe thing. However, since it sounds like you were caught by a camera they will probably try not to budge. pass the petrol can
As a teenager in my Mk1 Shedscort I was stopped once for not stopping as some traffic lights turned orange/red. Luckily it was a police van turning right who spotted me and not a camera. I explained I had 5 up, it was wet and I didn't think it was safe to stop with cars following etc. He let me off as I was polite and obviously not speeding etc. Actually thinking about it he didn't even tell me to be careful etc.
The opposite happened to my girlfriend who got 3 points after a traffic car from Surrey's finest was waiting at the lights on the A322 Bagshot. She went through the junction as the lights turned orange. The cops decided she ran a red and pulled her. She wouldn't take the 3 points on the spot and it went to court a few months later. 2 cops vs my girlfriend. Stitched up. She's American and wouldn't run a red if at all possible - you don't run red lights in America (anyone who's been there will know what I mean). Apparently they were rude from the moment they approached her which really pissed her off (again, in America you treat the cops like God 'cos they have big guns!). So now Surry Police have someone who hates their guts. At least it took 2 traffic cops off the street for a whole day.
BTW - while we were waiting (all day) at Woking Court various scrotes and druggies were in and out - 95% walked out grinning and laughing having got off whatever they were up for. Great world innit.
As a teenager in my Mk1 Shedscort I was stopped once for not stopping as some traffic lights turned orange/red. Luckily it was a police van turning right who spotted me and not a camera. I explained I had 5 up, it was wet and I didn't think it was safe to stop with cars following etc. He let me off as I was polite and obviously not speeding etc. Actually thinking about it he didn't even tell me to be careful etc.
The opposite happened to my girlfriend who got 3 points after a traffic car from Surrey's finest was waiting at the lights on the A322 Bagshot. She went through the junction as the lights turned orange. The cops decided she ran a red and pulled her. She wouldn't take the 3 points on the spot and it went to court a few months later. 2 cops vs my girlfriend. Stitched up. She's American and wouldn't run a red if at all possible - you don't run red lights in America (anyone who's been there will know what I mean). Apparently they were rude from the moment they approached her which really pissed her off (again, in America you treat the cops like God 'cos they have big guns!). So now Surry Police have someone who hates their guts. At least it took 2 traffic cops off the street for a whole day.
BTW - while we were waiting (all day) at Woking Court various scrotes and druggies were in and out - 95% walked out grinning and laughing having got off whatever they were up for. Great world innit.
docevi1 said:
I'm panicing here, indeed typing this has me somewhat shakey as I really can't have points on my licence, I simply couldn't afford it and I don't like the shame of it given the fact that I think I did the right thing. Any advice would be gratefully recieved!
sorry to hear of your predicament. A similar thing happended to me back in 1998, lorry behind me and a wet road so went through "an amber". Got tugged by Trafpol, tried to reason with some ugly **** but didn't get anywhere. 3 points and a TS10 duly appeared on my licence
The insurance company didn't raise my policy by a penny. puggit said:Only one photograph was produced in court, showing the vehicle - with its brake lights on - about half-way across the intersection. There were vehicles ahead of it. I don't know what was shown on the particular photograph in terms of speed, but recall a thread (which I can't now find) that contained a photograph and I don't remember (although the continuing loss of "little grey cells" may be to blame) that showing the speed of the vehicle - Streaky
Streaky - red light cameras are supposed to record speed as well as length of time crossing the line after red.
So in Stefan's case, they should have that recorded too, and he's bang to rights
puggit said:
I only say this cos I've seen a red-light NIP with a recorded speed of 0 mph
Quite possible too. Once the stop line has been crossed at red, the offence is complete. The first photo will not be taken until after the vehicle has crossed the line. If it has gone far enough to trigger the camera and stopped, then the speed will show 0mph!
gone said:
I only say this cos I've seen a red-light NIP with a recorded speed of 0 mph
Quite possible too. Once the stop line has been crossed at red, the offence is complete. The first photo will not be taken until after the vehicle has crossed the line. If it has gone far enough to trigger the camera and stopped, then the speed will show 0mph!
how about if you have to move out of the way for an emergency vehicle... and have to cross the line in order for them to get through ?
Dwight VanDriver said:
Firstly Traffic lights do not just appear. They are visible on approach. A Green means the next stage is stopping so some caution should be applied on approach and more so on a wet road. I say no more.
I agree, and indeed haven't mentioned it to many people as this is the response I would normally give to most other people. However circumstances where such that I was keeping a check on the Taxi behind and didn't see the lights change green/amber (I must have looked in my mirror the moment they changed or something). No defence and I can see why many people will say it's a sign of a bad driver but I've learned from the experience and I doubt it will happen again.
Dwight VanDriver said:
You have been involved in a run of the mill motoring incident so stop shaking (sign of a nervous driver?)
Not really, but it is a sign of a terrified 21 year old. I'm not in the best of health's mentally and this has been plauging my mind for 16weeks. To have it come back after such a long time saying I'm guilty is desperatly upsetting and indeed is causing me to become increasingly miserable. On the other hand, when ever I approach traffic lights I'm ready to slam on the brakes and given the same situation I'm not entirely sure I'd do what I deemed the safer option - I couldn't go through this all over again.
The images I have here relating to the Escort don't appear to have speed on them, they have date/time, an R & Y value (which change). Does anyone know either how to read them, or a website which shows me? I can't seem to find any via google.
thank your for your help. It would appear as if there is nothing I can do to halt the onset of points on my otherwise clean licence (it's even clean physically
). I plan however to write a polite letter back re-stating my case, the images they sent are incorrect (an admin error on there behalf one presumes) and wait again. Do I need to fill this other NIP in? One presumes if I'm writing a letter I shouldn't fill the in the NIP until I get there response?
Thanks for the help.
>> Edited by docevi1 on Thursday 27th May 11:26
jvaughan said:
puggit said:
I only say this cos I've seen a red-light NIP with a recorded speed of 0 mph
Quite possible too. Once the stop line has been crossed at red, the offence is complete. The first photo will not be taken until after the vehicle has crossed the line. If it has gone far enough to trigger the camera and stopped, then the speed will show 0mph!
how about if you have to move out of the way for an emergency vehicle... and have to cross the line in order for them to get through ?
Hope that the photo captures at least some of said emergency vehicle!
I'm reading through posts across on pepioo and just wished to thank you for offering advice and not critising my actions at the time.
I always knew this sort of offence would cause a lot of anger in most people (it does for myself as well), but it's pleasant to know that people here can look beyond what they think is right/wrong and offer some words of advice to someone who is struggling with a given situation.
I'll happily admit that going through red lights is very dangerous, and indeed offenders should be punished harshly however I also believe that some discretion should be offered. The problem is as ever people try to play the system and many people, including the Police are more than likely assuming I made this "story" up as I bet they've never heard it before.
Just to set the record straight I'm all for Red Light Camera's, indeed for the most part I'm for Speed Camera's (up here I could argue that every camera is in a sensible location, I don't know about Southern parts however as I've never driven there) and haven't changed my opinion of them after this event. The only thing I think that should be changed is the time it takes for an appeal to be heard - it's no fun waiting for 16weeks+ to hear of your fate.
I shall let you know what the outcome is, however I'm thinking it's going to be points on my licence and subsquent fine.
Thanks again, I'm feeling much easier with myself as a result of asking for help. Don't know why, but thanks.
I always knew this sort of offence would cause a lot of anger in most people (it does for myself as well), but it's pleasant to know that people here can look beyond what they think is right/wrong and offer some words of advice to someone who is struggling with a given situation.
I'll happily admit that going through red lights is very dangerous, and indeed offenders should be punished harshly however I also believe that some discretion should be offered. The problem is as ever people try to play the system and many people, including the Police are more than likely assuming I made this "story" up as I bet they've never heard it before.
Just to set the record straight I'm all for Red Light Camera's, indeed for the most part I'm for Speed Camera's (up here I could argue that every camera is in a sensible location, I don't know about Southern parts however as I've never driven there) and haven't changed my opinion of them after this event. The only thing I think that should be changed is the time it takes for an appeal to be heard - it's no fun waiting for 16weeks+ to hear of your fate.
I shall let you know what the outcome is, however I'm thinking it's going to be points on my licence and subsquent fine.
Thanks again, I'm feeling much easier with myself as a result of asking for help. Don't know why, but thanks.
It seems a shame that someone as cautious as you should be caught out. It would seem that your legal options would have been to say sod the taxi behind you - if he rear ends you, its his fault.
As for approaching green traffic signals, yes, we all know they will eventually turn to amber, but even covering the brake, a few have caught me out and the decision to stop or continue has to be decided in a millisecond. In the presence of a camera, the decision is stop - anchors on - and keep my fingers crossed. The problem is, you just don't know how long the amber will be displayed, despite, i'm sure, the authorities say it's a standard length. You might have enough time to proceed through safely, but you can't take that chance anymore.
So Stefan, now that your a criminal, you can stop being so cautious and go out and mug old ladies instead.
As for approaching green traffic signals, yes, we all know they will eventually turn to amber, but even covering the brake, a few have caught me out and the decision to stop or continue has to be decided in a millisecond. In the presence of a camera, the decision is stop - anchors on - and keep my fingers crossed. The problem is, you just don't know how long the amber will be displayed, despite, i'm sure, the authorities say it's a standard length. You might have enough time to proceed through safely, but you can't take that chance anymore.
So Stefan, now that your a criminal, you can stop being so cautious and go out and mug old ladies instead.
I have (knowingly) driven through a red light in the UK on only one occasion (in Napoli ... it's compulsory!).
It was a December morning, the road was wet and icy in patches. Approaching a red light round a slight curve, I had an articulated milk tanker quite close behind me - I could only see "ODE" (of Foden) in my mirror. I braked, the tanker locked up and the driver hit the horn. So did I, and, mentally crossing my fingers, accelerated through the lights. Fortunately traffic was very light, and nothing hit me. The tanker travelled through the cross-roads at a roughly 45 degree angle and nothing hit it. It did demolish the traffic lights and a garden wall on the opposite side of the road however. The police were called and the officer who took my statement said that if I hadn't gone through the lights on red I would probably be in a mortuary-bag. Nothing further was heard.
Of course, had there been a red-light camera there, I would probably have received a NIP
Streaky
PS - thx to docevi1 for confirmation about the photograph(s) not showing "speed" - S
It was a December morning, the road was wet and icy in patches. Approaching a red light round a slight curve, I had an articulated milk tanker quite close behind me - I could only see "ODE" (of Foden) in my mirror. I braked, the tanker locked up and the driver hit the horn. So did I, and, mentally crossing my fingers, accelerated through the lights. Fortunately traffic was very light, and nothing hit me. The tanker travelled through the cross-roads at a roughly 45 degree angle and nothing hit it. It did demolish the traffic lights and a garden wall on the opposite side of the road however. The police were called and the officer who took my statement said that if I hadn't gone through the lights on red I would probably be in a mortuary-bag. Nothing further was heard.
Of course, had there been a red-light camera there, I would probably have received a NIP
Streaky
PS - thx to docevi1 for confirmation about the photograph(s) not showing "speed" - S
Oh well, to finish this thread off:
I replied to the letter personally (previous correspondance was via my father as he was the owner of the vehicle) saying I was unsure if I needed to fill in the NIP or not (my dad had already told them it was me) and re-explained the situation.
A week later I recieved a letter stating I had to return the NIP to them within 14 days otherwise I would be taken to court for failure to incriminate myself. Since I was on holiday this was sent near the end of the time limit with a copy of the previous letter and a further note to explain the current situation.
2 days later I recieved the bog-standard "you may accept this conditional offer rather than us taking you to court" letter. £60 and 3 points it is.
I figured this would be the response and am not going to fight it any longer but am slightly furious at the whole event. Not only the time period (4 months for the first letter, it's not 6 months since the event) but the fact that they have bothered to reply to the letter I sent - a simple "we have looked at the pictures, but as the taxi is not featured we can't validate your alibi" would have sufficed.
I'm am going to write a letter of complaint to the Chief Constanable of Northumbria Police and my local MP - is there anyone else I should be writing to?
I must also point out that I have turned to the "Dark" side, no longer do I support the use of any form of camera, speed or red-light. I still believe in the letter of the law and will continue to drive to it, but the use of camera's should be outlawed.
I replied to the letter personally (previous correspondance was via my father as he was the owner of the vehicle) saying I was unsure if I needed to fill in the NIP or not (my dad had already told them it was me) and re-explained the situation.
A week later I recieved a letter stating I had to return the NIP to them within 14 days otherwise I would be taken to court for failure to incriminate myself. Since I was on holiday this was sent near the end of the time limit with a copy of the previous letter and a further note to explain the current situation.
2 days later I recieved the bog-standard "you may accept this conditional offer rather than us taking you to court" letter. £60 and 3 points it is.
I figured this would be the response and am not going to fight it any longer but am slightly furious at the whole event. Not only the time period (4 months for the first letter, it's not 6 months since the event) but the fact that they have bothered to reply to the letter I sent - a simple "we have looked at the pictures, but as the taxi is not featured we can't validate your alibi" would have sufficed.
I'm am going to write a letter of complaint to the Chief Constanable of Northumbria Police and my local MP - is there anyone else I should be writing to?
I must also point out that I have turned to the "Dark" side, no longer do I support the use of any form of camera, speed or red-light. I still believe in the letter of the law and will continue to drive to it, but the use of camera's should be outlawed.
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