Crossing a solid white line to enter a bus lane
Discussion
Apologies if this has been done before; I tried a number of search terms but didn't come up with anything specifically about this topic.
A colleague insists that the double-width solid white line marking a bus lane is a double-white line for the purposes of crossing it. Consequently (he says) you may not enter a bus lane out of hours by crossing it. Rather, you must enter the lane at the diagonal dashed lines at the beginning of the lane (usually following a junction with a side road) or risk getting an endorsement and fine. The same is true of multi-occupancy lanes marked by a double-width white line.
I've had a look in the Highway Code and TSRGD and haven't actually been able to find anything that addresses crossing these double-width lines. It seems to me that there are no regulations in place to restrict a vehicle from crossing the line. But, he's adamant, and worse still, he's an engineer, so no matter the absence of proof, he is sticking with his original belief. Is he right?
A colleague insists that the double-width solid white line marking a bus lane is a double-white line for the purposes of crossing it. Consequently (he says) you may not enter a bus lane out of hours by crossing it. Rather, you must enter the lane at the diagonal dashed lines at the beginning of the lane (usually following a junction with a side road) or risk getting an endorsement and fine. The same is true of multi-occupancy lanes marked by a double-width white line.
I've had a look in the Highway Code and TSRGD and haven't actually been able to find anything that addresses crossing these double-width lines. It seems to me that there are no regulations in place to restrict a vehicle from crossing the line. But, he's adamant, and worse still, he's an engineer, so no matter the absence of proof, he is sticking with his original belief. Is he right?
Chocky Chockster said:
A colleague insists that the double-width solid white line marking a bus lane is a double-white line for the purposes of crossing it.
It is wider simply because that it what TSRGD specifies it should be (Diagram 1049). What makes him think that fact conveys a prohibition on crossing it? Unless he can quote legislation to back up his belief it is meaningless. I could believe the earth is flat and assert it to you all day, every day. Doesn't make it so. The double white line does mean that you cant cross it BUT only during its hours of operation which is why it is dashed at the end because during the hours of operation you can enter at that point. Outside of the hours or operation you can move in and out freely and not commit an offence.
craigjm said:
The double white line does mean that you cant cross it BUT only during its hours of operation which is why it is dashed at the end because during the hours of operation you can enter at that point. Outside of the hours or operation you can move in and out freely and not commit an offence.
Eh? Sorry that's not right.A DOUBLE white line (i.e. TWO parallel ones) means you can't cross them AT ANY TIME without comitting an offence. What is being discussed here is a SINGLE line which is WIDER than a normal lane divider. A subtle but crucial difference.
Red Devil said:
craigjm said:
The double white line does mean that you cant cross it BUT only during its hours of operation which is why it is dashed at the end because during the hours of operation you can enter at that point. Outside of the hours or operation you can move in and out freely and not commit an offence.
Eh? Sorry that's not right.A DOUBLE white line (i.e. TWO parallel ones) means you can't cross them AT ANY TIME without comitting an offence. What is being discussed here is a SINGLE line which is WIDER than a normal lane divider. A subtle but crucial difference.
Firstly, whether it's a double or single solid white line is irrelevent. If you have a solid white line on your side you cannot cross it regardless of what is on the other side of the road.
The line designating a bus lane must be thought of in the same way as a normal solid white line. i.e. you cannot cross it unless passing a vehicle or road user travelling at less than 10mph IIRC.
The line designating a bus lane must be thought of in the same way as a normal solid white line. i.e. you cannot cross it unless passing a vehicle or road user travelling at less than 10mph IIRC.
FWIW, in Orpington, Kent, an appeal against an FPN issued for crossing the continuous white line into a bus lane was upheld by the Adjudicator "after some hesitation" because the appellant was turning left very shortly afterwards (and was seen on camera so to do).
In upholding the driver's appeal, Mr Anthony Engel said in his written adjudication that, “The images show that the vehicle entered the bus lane but no advantage was gained over other traffic."
There was a dispute over whether the road markings were correct (and the Council later made some changes to them), but Mr Engel went on to say that, "A vehicle is allowed to cross a bus lane in order to turn left – which is what happened. Clearly one cannot safely turn left without moving to the nearside in advance." He concluded that, despite crossing the unbroken white line, the issue fell within that exemption.
His reasons for allowing the appeal were based upon the Traffic Management Order issued by Bromley Council (the “The Bromley (Bus Lanes) (No.1) Order 1998”) which listed a number of exemptions to the offence, for example, “to avoid an accident”. The crucial one in this instance gave the exemption of, “... a vehicle crossing a bus lane in order to get to or from any road adjacent to the bus lane or any vehicular access to premises adjacent to the bus lane”.
As dvd in particular has frequently pointed out elsewhere, check the TMO. You might find that the manoeuvre you performed is a permitted exemption, or that the signage does not conform, or a host of other issues that might assist you in an appeal. You might also, of course, find that you're 'bang to rights'.
Streaky
In upholding the driver's appeal, Mr Anthony Engel said in his written adjudication that, “The images show that the vehicle entered the bus lane but no advantage was gained over other traffic."
There was a dispute over whether the road markings were correct (and the Council later made some changes to them), but Mr Engel went on to say that, "A vehicle is allowed to cross a bus lane in order to turn left – which is what happened. Clearly one cannot safely turn left without moving to the nearside in advance." He concluded that, despite crossing the unbroken white line, the issue fell within that exemption.
His reasons for allowing the appeal were based upon the Traffic Management Order issued by Bromley Council (the “The Bromley (Bus Lanes) (No.1) Order 1998”) which listed a number of exemptions to the offence, for example, “to avoid an accident”. The crucial one in this instance gave the exemption of, “... a vehicle crossing a bus lane in order to get to or from any road adjacent to the bus lane or any vehicular access to premises adjacent to the bus lane”.
As dvd in particular has frequently pointed out elsewhere, check the TMO. You might find that the manoeuvre you performed is a permitted exemption, or that the signage does not conform, or a host of other issues that might assist you in an appeal. You might also, of course, find that you're 'bang to rights'.
Streaky
ShampooEfficient said:
He meant to put "double width white line", I'd wager.
I agree but he didn't.PH: accuracy matters.
MartinQ said:
Firstly, whether it's a double or single solid white line is irrelevent. If you have a solid white line on your side you cannot cross it regardless of what is on the other side of the road.
If that is the case, why would a double white ever be needed?MartinQ said:
The line designating a bus lane must be thought of in the same way as a normal solid white line. i.e. you cannot cross it unless passing a vehicle or road user travelling at less than 10mph IIRC.
I disagree with your assertion. Please provide a link which supports it.A single solid white line is an edge of carriageway marker, nothing more nothing less. Many roads have these on the nearside. Hence a double white line in the middle separates the road into two distinct carriageways each with a edge marker on the right. It is only this configuration who prohibits using the opposing carriageway except when needing to pass a car parked at the side of the road, overtake a push bike, horse or roadwork vehicle, if they are travelling at 10mph or below.
The only prohibition on crossing a single white line is where it is the boundary of a box containing hatchings/chevrons. I have yet to see a bus lane whch has such an arrangement.
That's a very interesting case Streaky - http://www.bromleytransport.org.uk/Cray_Avenue_Cam... - but there I think that the adjudication is about crossing an active bus lane, whereas I'm strictly interested in inactive lanes. It also doesn't look as though the broken white line commences 30m before the turning, but that's another matter, and I'm glad that ruling was made.
It seems to me that as Red Devil has said, without legislation to back up a claim that it's prohibited to cross the white line we should not consider it so, and any FPNs associated with crossing the line are really about using the bus lane.
It seems to me that as Red Devil has said, without legislation to back up a claim that it's prohibited to cross the white line we should not consider it so, and any FPNs associated with crossing the line are really about using the bus lane.
MartinQ said:
Firstly, whether it's a double or single solid white line is irrelevent. If you have a solid white line on your side you cannot cross it regardless of what is on the other side of the road.
The line designating a bus lane must be thought of in the same way as a normal solid white line. i.e. you cannot cross it unless passing a vehicle or road user travelling at less than 10mph IIRC.
That is oncorrect in regard to the thick solid white line seperating a bus lane when the bus lane is NOT in operationThe line designating a bus lane must be thought of in the same way as a normal solid white line. i.e. you cannot cross it unless passing a vehicle or road user travelling at less than 10mph IIRC.
another way of putting it - outside of the bus lane enforcement times the thick solid white line has no legal standing
I am sure there are other ways of putting it .............
Red Devil said:
MartinQ said:
Firstly, whether it's a double or single solid white line is irrelevent. If you have a solid white line on your side you cannot cross it regardless of what is on the other side of the road.
If that is the case, why would a double white ever be needed?A bus lane solid will be a single solid & equally you shouldn't cross it save in exempt circumstances, one of those being that you may outside it's hours of operation.
vonhosen said:
You have single solids & double solids down the centre of the road. Whether it's single or double denotes which direction of travel mustn't cross it (save for in exempt circumstances).
A bus lane solid will be a single solid & equally you shouldn't cross it save in exempt circumstances, one of those being that you may outside it's hours of operation.
You don't have single solids though, it's always a single solid COMBINED with a dashed line. TSRGD only mentions double solids,single solid line with hatched markings between it and the edge of a carriageway, a single solid line that marks the edge of the carriageway (no mention of not crossing it) and a solid line combined with a dashed line, which indicates which lane of traffic is or isn't allowed to cross it. The double width solid is only mentioned with regards to bus lanes, there does not appear to be any mention of whether or not you are allowed to cross it or not, therefore it can be assumed that you are!A bus lane solid will be a single solid & equally you shouldn't cross it save in exempt circumstances, one of those being that you may outside it's hours of operation.
chriscpritchard said:
vonhosen said:
You have single solids & double solids down the centre of the road. Whether it's single or double denotes which direction of travel mustn't cross it (save for in exempt circumstances).
A bus lane solid will be a single solid & equally you shouldn't cross it save in exempt circumstances, one of those being that you may outside it's hours of operation.
You don't have single solids though, it's always a single solid COMBINED with a dashed line. TSRGD only mentions double solids,single solid line with hatched markings between it and the edge of a carriageway, a single solid line that marks the edge of the carriageway (no mention of not crossing it) and a solid line combined with a dashed line, which indicates which lane of traffic is or isn't allowed to cross it. The double width solid is only mentioned with regards to bus lanes, there does not appear to be any mention of whether or not you are allowed to cross it or not, therefore it can be assumed that you are!A bus lane solid will be a single solid & equally you shouldn't cross it save in exempt circumstances, one of those being that you may outside it's hours of operation.
The offence with the bus lane is entering it during the hours of operation, the (double thickness) solid simply defines where it is. The offence isn't crossing that line, other than by virtue of the fact that means you've entered the bus lane (during the hours of operation).
That line is, of course, a lane divider, and so you must cross it carefully. It might also be a bit slippery when wet. Other than that, no line rule outside of hours.
Incidentally, for double-white lines, the offence is not being to their nearside (rather than not crossing them), which rather makes a mockery of the ones used as lane-dividers in some tunnels.
Incidentally, for double-white lines, the offence is not being to their nearside (rather than not crossing them), which rather makes a mockery of the ones used as lane-dividers in some tunnels.
blank said:
Of course you can cross the line to use a bus lane when it's outside its hours of operation.
No wonder so many people are scared to use them!
There's also the problem with quite a few bus lanes where you get what should be one nice long stretch with limited hours of operation, only to find a short bit in the middle which is 24 hours... easier to stay out of the lane entirely than risk using it if you can't be certain that you haven't missed the one sign warning you of the 24 hour section.No wonder so many people are scared to use them!
Crossing the lane marker and using a bus lane out of hours is less of a problem than the people who refuse to use it and dawdle along in the "normal lane(s)" and don't ever consider anything on their left when they want to turn left. How they go on when buses are batting down the bus lanes I don't know, or maybe it's because there are hardly ever any buses, but that's quite another discussion.
I'll continue to use out of hours bus lanes, but increasingly find as overtaking on the left is definitely unwise, the only advantage is when you can trickle up the inside of everybody waiting at a light controlled junction or pedestrian crossing. This action can open up a whole new level of rage from people who are left behind on the green.
Actually I find it even more bizarre when taxi drivers get annoyed because they haven't used the bus lane out of hours, even though in some circumstances they are allowed to use them in operational hours. I conclude a significant % of taxi-istas must be useless drivers and quite brain dead.
I'll continue to use out of hours bus lanes, but increasingly find as overtaking on the left is definitely unwise, the only advantage is when you can trickle up the inside of everybody waiting at a light controlled junction or pedestrian crossing. This action can open up a whole new level of rage from people who are left behind on the green.
Actually I find it even more bizarre when taxi drivers get annoyed because they haven't used the bus lane out of hours, even though in some circumstances they are allowed to use them in operational hours. I conclude a significant % of taxi-istas must be useless drivers and quite brain dead.
Scelto said:
Slightly tangential, but is it legal to cross the solid white line of an operating bus lane to pass a car that's waiting to turn right?
Technically not legal BUT most places use common sense - we have that senario in Leicester on the A47 and the cops as well as everyone else uses the 24 hour bus lane to proceed providing it is safe to do so and does not hinder those that the lane is designed forGenerally, if others have to wait whilst a vehicle has to wait to turn right in such situations then the planners are at fault and the cops know it and so ingore it
Cambridge is a nightmare
They've had bus lanes so long the paint has worn thin to invisible
I cant remember which road but you come out thinking youre in two lanes of traffic then after a while realise theres only you and matey in front in the left lane. He turns off left and you have space to realise there's feint 'BUS LANE' written on the road from time to time and that scatty line between you and the full lane of traffic to your right is wider than normal and might have been continuous once. Thinking this is not the place to be, you signal right and move into the other lane just in time to escape a yellow cube on a post.
They've had bus lanes so long the paint has worn thin to invisible
I cant remember which road but you come out thinking youre in two lanes of traffic then after a while realise theres only you and matey in front in the left lane. He turns off left and you have space to realise there's feint 'BUS LANE' written on the road from time to time and that scatty line between you and the full lane of traffic to your right is wider than normal and might have been continuous once. Thinking this is not the place to be, you signal right and move into the other lane just in time to escape a yellow cube on a post.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff