Tail steps out... is it an offence?
Discussion
This got me thinking, after the gargantuan 'being pulled' thread started disappearing along the lines of nice cops/nasty cops.
For me, the really interesting point about paulu's post, was that the police had spotted the tail of his friend's chimp step out of line... and both got pulled.
Could an oversteer slide be construed as being 'out of control' if it was executed with the correct amount of opposite lock, and contributed to the efficient negotiation of a hazard, i.e. a roundabout.
Don't get me wrong, I only rarely get the tail out (normally when I'm pushing on with no other traffic about on roads that I know, with good observation and anticipation), but am I dicing with a careless driving charge if I do?
If so, they should ticket Novas for understeering into kerbs in the wet ;-)
Any thoughts/experience?
Cheers
Domster
For me, the really interesting point about paulu's post, was that the police had spotted the tail of his friend's chimp step out of line... and both got pulled.
Could an oversteer slide be construed as being 'out of control' if it was executed with the correct amount of opposite lock, and contributed to the efficient negotiation of a hazard, i.e. a roundabout.
Don't get me wrong, I only rarely get the tail out (normally when I'm pushing on with no other traffic about on roads that I know, with good observation and anticipation), but am I dicing with a careless driving charge if I do?
If so, they should ticket Novas for understeering into kerbs in the wet ;-)
Any thoughts/experience?
Cheers
Domster
domster, Paulu's post got me thinking along exactly the same lines. After all, a little bit of tail movement is very easy to do in a tiv in the wet. Doesnt mean you're driving it like a gibbon.
Following this point on, what about chirping tyres? My quattro's tyres squeal away like mad if I'm cornering hard. Doesnt mean I'm breaking the speed limit or not in control....
Following this point on, what about chirping tyres? My quattro's tyres squeal away like mad if I'm cornering hard. Doesnt mean I'm breaking the speed limit or not in control....
Its a fine line between being in control and losing it - thats what I reckon plods attitude would be. I'd've thought a word in your ear about "keep it down sonny" would be sufficient, no need to read the riot act. I reckon we've all pushed on a bit - I know I've been pulled and told " you were straigthening a few of those bends weren't you". Tough one to call tho, just be aware.
As has been pointed out it is a very fine line between controling it and loosing it. I would certainly pull someone if I saw it, if only to b/test them. It actually reminds me of a driving course at the skid pan when someone commented on the fact that it was very small, as the instructor pointed out if it happens for real you will usually have a maximum of 14ft to control it after that you are dodging either lamposts or oncomming traffic. Most people get out of a skid by pure luck very few do it by skill the problem is to most people luck = skill they don't learn by the mistake and consequently it happens again. I recall a very amusing interview with one such person "yeah when the back end started to go I kept me foot on the gas put opposite lock on and tried to steer through it" Me "who taught you that" "err, I saw it on that programme, driven or was it top gear". He walked away it took 2hrs to cut his mate out of the car who then spent 3 months in hospital having his leg and pelvis put back together. Driver got a 3yr ban for dangerous driving.
The last two tail out Tiv's on my area resulted in 3 deaths No1 killed himself as he floored it comming of a roundabout, No2 killed his mate in the passenger seat and the driver of an oncomming car, that he hit he got 5 years for death X dangerous, sorry for being a down on it but both were when traffic was light. in fact only last week a bloke in an Aston Martin lost it at exactly the same place as No1, missed the same lampost (all be it a new one) and stuck it through a fence.
>> Edited by john robson on Friday 17th May 00:07
The last two tail out Tiv's on my area resulted in 3 deaths No1 killed himself as he floored it comming of a roundabout, No2 killed his mate in the passenger seat and the driver of an oncomming car, that he hit he got 5 years for death X dangerous, sorry for being a down on it but both were when traffic was light. in fact only last week a bloke in an Aston Martin lost it at exactly the same place as No1, missed the same lampost (all be it a new one) and stuck it through a fence.
>> Edited by john robson on Friday 17th May 00:07
Its an interesting point about squeal as there is a roundabout in Nottingham (near the university) that always squeals without any movement. Happened with the kit, Lotus and now the mini, I think its the surface of the road (I know that sounds odd but it is an odd sound).
I found more recently that the mini if anything has tyre squeal more than the other cars I've had yet I'm traveling well within the limits (of car and speed) on the corner and no sideways movement, I think its the tyre compound makes a noise whilst gripping on hard bends. I will be changing them to a wider and different make when they wear out, as its quite annoying. Does anyone on the forum know about this?
I found more recently that the mini if anything has tyre squeal more than the other cars I've had yet I'm traveling well within the limits (of car and speed) on the corner and no sideways movement, I think its the tyre compound makes a noise whilst gripping on hard bends. I will be changing them to a wider and different make when they wear out, as its quite annoying. Does anyone on the forum know about this?
quote:
As has been pointed out it is a very fine line between controling it and loosing it. I would certainly pull someone if I saw it, if only to b/test them. It actually reminds me of a driving course at the skid pan when someone commented on the fact that it was very small, as the instructor pointed out if it happens for real you will usually have a maximum of 14ft to control it after that you are dodging either lamposts or oncomming traffic. Most people get out of a skid by pure luck very few do it by skill the problem is to most people luck = skill they don't learn by the mistake and consequently it happens again. I recall a very amusing interview with one such person "yeah when the back end started to go I kept me foot on the gas put opposite lock on and tried to steer through it" Me "who taught you that" "err, I saw it on that programme, driven or was it top gear". He walked away it took 2hrs to cut his mate out of the car who then spent 3 months in hospital having his leg and pelvis put back together. Driver got a 3yr ban for dangerous driving.
The last two tail out Tiv's on my area resulted in 3 deaths No1 killed himself as he floored it comming of a roundabout, No2 killed his mate in the passenger seat and the driver of an oncomming car, that he hit he got 5 years for death X dangerous, sorry for being a down on it but both were when traffic was light. in fact only last week a bloke in an Aston Martin lost it at exactly the same place as No1, missed the same lampost (all be it a new one) and stuck it through a fence.
>> Edited by john robson on Friday 17th May 00:07
specking of losing it pm aroundabout
remember an officer losing a car on one a while back now.
I can still remember his face, bet he remembers it to
he must have beend on a shout it was aTO not a pander
i saw im come into the it too fast new he would not make it round as the entry speed was to fast
as he got half way the roundabout had a bad lean to it (shit i cant spell canva)
and as the back end when light he lost it
slid across the exit right across the other side of the road manged jus to get it back 2inchs from hiting a passanger bus the other side of the road
buy luck not skill by the look on his face
not to mention the brow stuff in his pants
it was the of one in the passanger seat i fell shorry for I think he thort he was going to die
but like you say it s a fine line on losing it
as for the one`s that have seen how to corect a slid on tv
you can tell some one what to a hundred times and it still all depends on what the do in that split second
when it dose hapen to them when there not expecting it.
and many will brick it and still brake.
there is no substute for skid practes in a safe inviroment and i do belive that some traing siold be included in the test
may be not even tested on it but a few hours on a pan would do wonders
must admit i like to keep up practis my self as with normal driving you dont get the chance much.
the odd wet end empy car park
been tuged once he thort it was nicked as i was sliding round and empty park one night but was fine
onece i spoke too him and he new what i was doing and it want the kids in a nicked one want , one of the good on TO`s.
sham asda`s is open all night these day it was cheaper the going to a pan :-)
just out of curosity how offten To get to practis onece the done the traning
ie refresher tranning
its not so much the TO that scar me its the pandar drivers
bloody hell some of them have scared the life out of me
with there dogy driving
guess im just unluck had one wpc nealy run me over when she mounted a pavment, when i was on foot.
another pandar ripp my wing mirror off when i was stationary
one nealy hit me head on when he cam round a tight bend on the roung side of the road at least that guy stoped to say shorry m8,
pluss a few others.
quote:
Its an interesting point about squeal as there is a roundabout in Nottingham (near the university) that always squeals without any movement. Happened with the kit, Lotus and now the mini, I think its the surface of the road (I know that sounds odd but it is an odd sound).
I found more recently that the mini if anything has tyre squeal more than the other cars I've had yet I'm traveling well within the limits (of car and speed) on the corner and no sideways movement, I think its the tyre compound makes a noise whilst gripping on hard bends. I will be changing them to a wider and different make when they wear out, as its quite annoying. Does anyone on the forum know about this?
its as combination of the tyer and road serface m8
when im driving the cav i use as a run around it dose it in the carparks at 5 mile an hour
my other one wont if i do at 50
So if "tail out" in a car is illegal & out of control what about "knee down" on a bike both show that you are fairly close to the edge of the envelope ??? I'm all for nicking the "Wednesday night hero's" who insist on lapping rounabouts 6 times getting closer and closer each time before putting a graze on their slidders and retiring to the Little Thief to compare hero blobs. But I do know that when I've been cooking on the road it's quite pleasant to come into a nice sweeping bend you know well and own to feel the rush of nylon on tarmac.
I can see about john r's '14 foot' rule, as I've done a skid control day at MIRA and out of ten power slides, seven may have been beautiful tributes to Fangio, yet the other three meant me spinning out like a gibbon (running out of lock and you run out of luck, if you see what I mean).
On the road, I wouldn't attempt stuff like that, as there would be a 30 per cent risk (or higher, as not controlled conditions like MIRA) of losing it.
On the road, I wouldn't attempt stuff like that, as there would be a 30 per cent risk (or higher, as not controlled conditions like MIRA) of losing it.
quote:
As has been pointed out it is a very fine line between controling it and loosing it. I would certainly pull someone if I saw it, if only to b/test them. It actually reminds me of a driving course at the skid pan when someone commented on the fact that it was very small, as the instructor pointed out if it happens for real you will usually have a maximum of 14ft to control it after that you are dodging either lamposts or oncomming traffic. Most people get out of a skid by pure luck very few do it by skill the problem is to most people luck = skill they don't learn by the mistake and consequently it happens again. I recall a very amusing interview with one such person "yeah when the back end started to go I kept me foot on the gas put opposite lock on and tried to steer through it" Me "who taught you that" "err, I saw it on that programme, driven or was it top gear". He walked away it took 2hrs to cut his mate out of the car who then spent 3 months in hospital having his leg and pelvis put back together. Driver got a 3yr ban for dangerous driving.
The last two tail out Tiv's on my area resulted in 3 deaths No1 killed himself as he floored it comming of a roundabout, No2 killed his mate in the passenger seat and the driver of an oncomming car, that he hit he got 5 years for death X dangerous, sorry for being a down on it but both were when traffic was light. in fact only last week a bloke in an Aston Martin lost it at exactly the same place as No1, missed the same lampost (all be it a new one) and stuck it through a fence.
>> Edited by john robson on Friday 17th May 00:07
Having to see these incidents must be hard enough, but when you come on here and hear about some of the behaviour we get upto, i can understand some anger venting occasionally, I appologise most sincereley for earlier remarks John, they were said as knee jerk reaction, I've never been very good with authority. Dontt think i'm capable of what you do, so respect.
It is a great pity our failing police force have nothing better to do. Considering the huge crimes commitied in this country, I am sure they would be better occupied arresting the real criminals like politicians and green activists. The motorist is easy prey for lazy cops. I wonder if they would take a different stance if we all carried handguns?
Nongreen I do not agree with your comments, Its a bit like saying all doctors should just concentrate on treating cancer and heart attacks, because that is what kills most people in this country. The Police have lots of vastly differing areas of legislation to deal with, and in order to do it have officers trained in dirrefent skills, hence traffic officers to deal with motorists. We are actually a very small percentage of the overall force. Britain has one of the best road safety records in europe, this is partly due to the way legislation is enforced and our roads are policed. OK I will conceed that the situation with GATSO's is going a bit OTT but other than that the public on the whole get a very good deal from the traffic officers in this country. Most are well experienced officers who are interested and enthusiastic about what they do. I for one just expect people to Drive within their limits, accept that the roads belong to everyone, and that everyone has the right to use them safely, without being wipped out by some irresponsible prat who does not give a toss about anyone else so long as he is having a bit of fun.
quote:
Nongreen I do not agree with your comments, Its a bit like saying all doctors should just concentrate on treating cancer and heart attacks, because that is what kills most people in this country. The Police have lots of vastly differing areas of legislation to deal with, and in order to do it have officers trained in dirrefent skills, hence traffic officers to deal with motorists. We are actually a very small percentage of the overall force. Britain has one of the best road safety records in europe, this is partly due to the way legislation is enforced and our roads are policed. OK I will conceed that the situation with GATSO's is going a bit OTT but other than that the public on the whole get a very good deal from the traffic officers in this country. Most are well experienced officers who are interested and enthusiastic about what they do. I for one just expect people to Drive within their limits, accept that the roads belong to everyone, and that everyone has the right to use them safely, without being wipped out by some irresponsible prat who does not give a toss about anyone else so long as he is having a bit of fun.
ooh my - I'm gonna have to agree with JR here..... The few (!) occasions I've had me collar felt by the TO's have been fair (cept the last one - thought I might get away with it, but lady plod had other ideas - she wanted magistrates, boyfriend had to persaude her otherwise - phew!)Dump the cameras, more "reasonable" plod on the road, it'll be a lot better.
One time was following 3 plod in a row, all on the NSL on a dual carriageway, I just drifted past at about 5 mph more (risky but wtf)..... as I went past the one in the lead he gave me a flash of his blues.... kacked meself!!
You have to be aware that there is an offence of failing to have proper control. This constitutes a number of evils which range from using your mobile phone whilst negotiating a roundabout/junction or as stated hanging the back end out or wheel spinning away from a start. It may not be bad enough to incur a charge of careless but could find you with a non endorsable FPT, especially if when pointed out you go 'into one' at the cop who stops you. "The pen is mightier than the sword" is a good rule to remember when receiving advice even if you dont agree, take it on the chin and maybe walk away with a b****ing instead of an FPT
quote:
Nothing wrong with knee-down.. it improves control of the bike if done right. But it does look very risky if you don't understand - and not many plods have a bike license as well as a car license.
C
only prob with that is all the roads are shit
and a knee in a pot hole hurts like hell :-(
quote:
quote:Not always, I've seen a few numpties getting their knee down, but the bike was almost upright!!! what's that all about then? Don't understand it myself.
Chance are that if your getting your knee down your probably breaking the speed limit
Quinny.
thats the idear m8 the reson you get your knee down
is to keep the bike as upright as posibe
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