Police Drink Driving
Discussion
Scotland Yard has admitted that it has been breaking Home Office guidelines by allowing officers caught drink-driving to keep their jobs.
In a confidential document seen by the Guardian, the force calls on senior officers who sit on misconduct boards to take a much tougher line amid concern that they are "reducing the risks to officers who commit these offences and consequently condoning their behaviour."
They are also weakening the disciplinary process because officers facing dismissal are citing examples of cases handled leniently to seek lighter punishments. One officer had his dismissal overturned, and instead lost five days pay.
The government and London's police authority expect that, save for exceptional circumstances, officers convicted of drink driving will be sacked.
Of a snapshot of 17 cases reviewed by the Met, only six officers appeared likely to face dismissal once the appeals process had been exhausted. One officer who was three times over the limit was merely docked 13 days' pay. Anxiety in the force is such that all cases handled contrary to the Home Office guidelines are being referred to the deputy commissioner Sir Ian Blair.
In a letter calling for tougher action, a deputy assistant commissioner, Stephen Roberts, says the Met and Home Office guidelines are meant to be "a reflection of the serious view that is taken both by the service and society about offences of this nature".
Mr Roberts says revised misconduct guidelines for a range of offences should not have affected the approach to such cases. "Sanction decisions in drink-drive cases are the most straightforward and yet even here standards are not being applied consistently. I seek your assistance in arresting this drift towards 'acceptability' of drink driving within this service."
Jenny Jones, leader of the Green Party on the London assembly and a member of the Metropolitan police authority, said she is appalled that guidelines have been ignored. "This seems to expose a macho culture where drink-driving is not taken as seriously inside the force as it is in wider society. We should never forget that drunk drivers kill and devastate people's lives. Police officers have a responsibility to uphold the law."
She voiced particular concern that senior officers sat on misconduct boards. "It is amazing that people who have been on the senior command courses can have so little grasp of how the public feels."
Brigitte Chaudhry, of the pressure group RoadPeace, said: "It just shows that road offences are not taken as seriously as other criminal acts, even by the police. They should set a better example."
Drink-drive deaths have fallen dramatically over the last 20 years, but have been edging up recently. There were an estimated 560 deaths in the UK in 2002. The legal drink-drive limit is 80mg of alcohol per 100 ml of blood.
The issue is highly emotive in Scotland Yard. Last month, the Guardian revealed how a high profile officer, Sgt Gurpal Virdi, was targeted with hate mail after writing to The Job, a police newspaper, criticising the reinstatement of officers sacked for drink driving.
While convicted officers will receive a less sympathetic hearing, misconduct boards are expected to retain the flexibility over justifiable pleas for leniency. An off-duty officer was arrested for drink driving after he heard a gunshot while at home and drove after the suspect. He escaped punishment in court and a misconduct board judged that "no further action" was necessary.
In a confidential document seen by the Guardian, the force calls on senior officers who sit on misconduct boards to take a much tougher line amid concern that they are "reducing the risks to officers who commit these offences and consequently condoning their behaviour."
They are also weakening the disciplinary process because officers facing dismissal are citing examples of cases handled leniently to seek lighter punishments. One officer had his dismissal overturned, and instead lost five days pay.
The government and London's police authority expect that, save for exceptional circumstances, officers convicted of drink driving will be sacked.
Of a snapshot of 17 cases reviewed by the Met, only six officers appeared likely to face dismissal once the appeals process had been exhausted. One officer who was three times over the limit was merely docked 13 days' pay. Anxiety in the force is such that all cases handled contrary to the Home Office guidelines are being referred to the deputy commissioner Sir Ian Blair.
In a letter calling for tougher action, a deputy assistant commissioner, Stephen Roberts, says the Met and Home Office guidelines are meant to be "a reflection of the serious view that is taken both by the service and society about offences of this nature".
Mr Roberts says revised misconduct guidelines for a range of offences should not have affected the approach to such cases. "Sanction decisions in drink-drive cases are the most straightforward and yet even here standards are not being applied consistently. I seek your assistance in arresting this drift towards 'acceptability' of drink driving within this service."
Jenny Jones, leader of the Green Party on the London assembly and a member of the Metropolitan police authority, said she is appalled that guidelines have been ignored. "This seems to expose a macho culture where drink-driving is not taken as seriously inside the force as it is in wider society. We should never forget that drunk drivers kill and devastate people's lives. Police officers have a responsibility to uphold the law."
She voiced particular concern that senior officers sat on misconduct boards. "It is amazing that people who have been on the senior command courses can have so little grasp of how the public feels."
Brigitte Chaudhry, of the pressure group RoadPeace, said: "It just shows that road offences are not taken as seriously as other criminal acts, even by the police. They should set a better example."
Drink-drive deaths have fallen dramatically over the last 20 years, but have been edging up recently. There were an estimated 560 deaths in the UK in 2002. The legal drink-drive limit is 80mg of alcohol per 100 ml of blood.
The issue is highly emotive in Scotland Yard. Last month, the Guardian revealed how a high profile officer, Sgt Gurpal Virdi, was targeted with hate mail after writing to The Job, a police newspaper, criticising the reinstatement of officers sacked for drink driving.
While convicted officers will receive a less sympathetic hearing, misconduct boards are expected to retain the flexibility over justifiable pleas for leniency. An off-duty officer was arrested for drink driving after he heard a gunshot while at home and drove after the suspect. He escaped punishment in court and a misconduct board judged that "no further action" was necessary.
Pies said:
Sorry i know you want DD sacked but im with Scotland yard
Im with you on that one im afraid.
Each case should be judged on merit, taking into account ALL the circumstances.
About 15 years ago, a friend of mine and a bloody good Copper was forced to resign for being just over the limit. This wasnt just a loss to the Service but to the Public as well.
Dont get me wrong, im NOT condoning D/D or anything and i wouldnt object if the limit was nothing at all.
The original post was from an article on PoliceOracle.com.
My feelings about this are that the Police shouldn't be drink driving at all, but would agree to a certain extent that each case should be judged on its individual merits, although I'd struggle to think of any mitigation.
That said, we (BiB) should really know better than to get done for drink driving in the first place.
My feelings about this are that the Police shouldn't be drink driving at all, but would agree to a certain extent that each case should be judged on its individual merits, although I'd struggle to think of any mitigation.
That said, we (BiB) should really know better than to get done for drink driving in the first place.
I think any BiB that gets done for drink driving has only himself/herself to blame and should lose their job.
The public pay for police officers to be able to patrol on out on the streets..Without a licence, he would be unable to fulfill his/her role and should go.
Again..it's not like a moment of madness...you know when you've been drinking and you make a choice to drive..
Incidentally...those observant pistonheads will notice there is now a space between Street and Cop. I've had to re-register as my normal username wont let me post....
I'm getting paranoid...is there a conspiracy going on here??
The public pay for police officers to be able to patrol on out on the streets..Without a licence, he would be unable to fulfill his/her role and should go.
Again..it's not like a moment of madness...you know when you've been drinking and you make a choice to drive..
Incidentally...those observant pistonheads will notice there is now a space between Street and Cop. I've had to re-register as my normal username wont let me post....
I'm getting paranoid...is there a conspiracy going on here??
I have to say it depends on the job, but if your in charge of any motor vehical, drinking is a no no 
In aviation, any pilot/flt engineer with any alcohol will more than likely loose there job.
Where allowed no alcohol at all for 8 hrs prior to flight.
And the limit has been set so low that its very close to what the body naturaly makes.
In aviation, any pilot/flt engineer with any alcohol will more than likely loose there job.
Where allowed no alcohol at all for 8 hrs prior to flight.
And the limit has been set so low that its very close to what the body naturaly makes.
I'm always surprised that people will risk a couple of pints before driving, believing that they'll be alright..
As you all know, it depends on:
1) tolerance level of the individual
2) what's been eaten earlier in the day
3) strength of alcohol etc etc
I've seen many a man/woman sweating like a proverbial on a rape charge in the back of my patrol car blowing into the machine, with their fingers crossed!
What a bloody gamble....Why bother? Best to have sod all alcohol if you're driving..
As you all know, it depends on:
1) tolerance level of the individual
2) what's been eaten earlier in the day
3) strength of alcohol etc etc
I've seen many a man/woman sweating like a proverbial on a rape charge in the back of my patrol car blowing into the machine, with their fingers crossed!
What a bloody gamble....Why bother? Best to have sod all alcohol if you're driving..
Around 30 yrs ago (yes, that long!) I used to go to a certain "railway club" on Saturday Night (good live groups). 2/3 of those present were Police Officers and their wives, all driving home in their cars. I make no comment as I was doing the same. 
>> Edited by 8Pack on Friday 25th June 00:24
>> Edited by 8Pack on Friday 25th June 00:24
Quis custodiet ipso custodes?
And then there's the issue of "Caeser's wife"!
However, each case should be judged on its merits, but each case must also be judged as equally as is practical.
With a recent allegation (in a discrimination case) of "a bar-room culture of heavy drinking" perhaps a MacPherson should report on "institutionalised drinking"
.
Streaky
And then there's the issue of "Caeser's wife"!
However, each case should be judged on its merits, but each case must also be judged as equally as is practical.
With a recent allegation (in a discrimination case) of "a bar-room culture of heavy drinking" perhaps a MacPherson should report on "institutionalised drinking"
. Streaky
Street Cop said:
I think any BiB that gets done for drink driving has only himself/herself to blame and should lose their job.
The public pay for police officers to be able to patrol on out on the streets..Without a licence, he would be unable to fulfill his/her role and should go.
Again..it's not like a moment of madness...you know when you've been drinking and you make a choice to drive..
Incidentally...those observant pistonheads will notice there is now a space between Street and Cop. I've had to re-register as my normal username wont let me post....
I'm getting paranoid...is there a conspiracy going on here??
I think that the attitude of some of the BiB on this thread does nothing but damage the already less than ideal opinion that some of the public have towards the Police.
I agree with Streetcop that you only have yourselves to blame if caught DD....that applies to the public AND particularly the police. Tonyrec, I underrstand there is strong comradery amongst you, but DD causes untold suffering to families and the police are no exception. I cannot believe that some of you are even saying "each case on its own merit". What, so the public get that luxury do they? If you stopped me on 2 pints and I registered over, then thats my fault. What are we saying here?........... a BiB in similar circumstance should have mitigating circumstances considered . WHAT F*******G hypocrisy.
RULE:- Get caught DD over the limit and ANYONE should be punished. However, sackings should be reserved for the more serious offences.
blademan said:
I think that the attitude of some of the BiB on this thread does nothing but damage the already less than ideal opinion that some of the public have towards the Police.
I agree with Streetcop that you only have yourselves to blame if caught DD....that applies to the public AND particularly the police. Tonyrec, I underrstand there is strong comradery amongst you, but DD causes untold suffering to families and the police are no exception. I cannot believe that some of you are even saying "each case on its own merit". What, so the public get that luxury do they? If you stopped me on 2 pints and I registered over, then thats my fault. What are we saying here?........... a BiB in similar circumstance should have mitigating circumstances considered . WHAT F*******G hypocrisy.
RULE:- Get caught DD over the limit and ANYONE should be punished. However, sackings should be reserved for the more serious offences.
Am i being presumptious here or is this aimed at me.
Lets get one thing straight here, what im saying is that everyone should be treated as equals.
Everyone is human, people do make mistakes so why should their whole life depend on it.
You should read into the bigger picture here and not spurt out damaging bollocks like, "I think that the attitude of some of the BiB on this thread does nothing but damage the already less than ideal opinion that some of the public have towards the Police".
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and for the record, i never have and never would Drink and Drive and i certainly wouldnt condone it by any stretch of the imagination.
blademan said:
Tonyrec, I underrstand there is strong comradery amongst you, but DD causes untold suffering to families and the police are no exception.
This does apply to everyone and every Offence....even speeding.
There is obvious comaradery but i would not condone anyone that i work with breaking the law.
People are now joining the Police Service with 'spent' Criminal convictions...a few years ago it was hard enough to be accepted if you had 3 points on your Licence.
Iam quite insulted by your remarks and would ask that if you dont quite understand what im saying that you have the good manners to ask for clarification instead of putting silly remarks on here in an attempt to make yourself look good and other people look stupid. Tonyrec.
I was not having a personal go at you.
Sorry if you took it that way, and I apologise.
Look at my postings...I respect the Police!!!!
All i am trying to say is this:-
1.I don't think that the Police should lose their job for being slightly over the limit. ( do believe I said that)
2.The Police should set an example, and should be punished same as public.
3.Can't understand why the Police would even want to consider DD . It leaves you wide open to criticism.
I was not having a personal go at you.
Sorry if you took it that way, and I apologise.
Look at my postings...I respect the Police!!!!
All i am trying to say is this:-
1.I don't think that the Police should lose their job for being slightly over the limit. ( do believe I said that)
2.The Police should set an example, and should be punished same as public.
3.Can't understand why the Police would even want to consider DD . It leaves you wide open to criticism.
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