Does a new MOT over-rule the old one?
Discussion
Ozzie Osmond said:
Just to clarify, driving a non-roadworthy car is illegal whether or not you "know". For instance, a bald tyre.
True. But I'd imagine the CPS would be rather more miffed if you'd obviously known about it.I don't know what the rules are on selling a car that you know isn't road-worthy?
kambites said:
I think it will still have a valid MoT if it fails a new one, but driving a car that you know to not be road-worthy is illegal.
How does that work? Its just failed the test. How can it have a valid MOT? I think its quite the opposite. The new MOT supersedes the old, even if the old is still in date. Certainly seems the logical way of doing things to me anyway!
John D. said:
kambites said:
I think it will still have a valid MoT if it fails a new one, but driving a car that you know to not be road-worthy is illegal.
How does that work? Its just failed the test. How can it have a valid MOT? No MOT =/=> Not Roadworthy
For example: A car can be in 100% perfect condition, but the MOT has expired. Car is still roadworthy, the offence is not having a valid MOT certificate.
Not Roadworthy =/=> No MOT
Example 2: A car can have a bald tyre, broken wipers, light bulbs out etc, but the MOT is still in date. The car is not roadworthy, the offence is having a bald tyre etc.
Failing MOT =/=> Not Roadworthy
Example 3: (I think this is right) A car can have bad emissions readings, and fails an MOT at month 9 of the current certificate. The car is still roadworthy (as failing emissions doesn't make it unroadworthy) and still has the original MOT with 3m left on it. No offences. (The buggered emissions will need to be mended before the next MOT test of course, else you'll default to the offence of not having a valid MOT certificate when the old one expires and you're not able to obtain the new one.)
Not Roadworthy =/=> Failing MOT
Example 4: There are certain items that will make a car unroadworthy which are not part of the MOT test. For example windows forwards of the B pillar which let through less than 70% of visible light. Tints are (or certainly didn't used to be) and MOT testable item, but they would make the car illegal to use on the road.
So my point is that there are several circumstances which mean that holding an MOT is not the same as having a road worthy car, and vice versa.
(PS "=/=>" means "does not imply")
For example: A car can be in 100% perfect condition, but the MOT has expired. Car is still roadworthy, the offence is not having a valid MOT certificate.
Not Roadworthy =/=> No MOT
Example 2: A car can have a bald tyre, broken wipers, light bulbs out etc, but the MOT is still in date. The car is not roadworthy, the offence is having a bald tyre etc.
Failing MOT =/=> Not Roadworthy
Example 3: (I think this is right) A car can have bad emissions readings, and fails an MOT at month 9 of the current certificate. The car is still roadworthy (as failing emissions doesn't make it unroadworthy) and still has the original MOT with 3m left on it. No offences. (The buggered emissions will need to be mended before the next MOT test of course, else you'll default to the offence of not having a valid MOT certificate when the old one expires and you're not able to obtain the new one.)
Not Roadworthy =/=> Failing MOT
Example 4: There are certain items that will make a car unroadworthy which are not part of the MOT test. For example windows forwards of the B pillar which let through less than 70% of visible light. Tints are (or certainly didn't used to be) and MOT testable item, but they would make the car illegal to use on the road.
So my point is that there are several circumstances which mean that holding an MOT is not the same as having a road worthy car, and vice versa.
(PS "=/=>" means "does not imply")
No MOT =/=> Not Roadworthy
For example: A car can be in 100% perfect condition, but the MOT has expired. Car is still roadworthy, the offence is not having a valid MOT certificate.
Not Roadworthy =/=> No MOT
Example 2: A car can have a bald tyre, broken wipers, light bulbs out etc, but the MOT is still in date. The car is not roadworthy, the offence is having a bald tyre etc.
Failing MOT =/=> Not Roadworthy
Example 3: (I think this is right) A car can have bad emissions readings, and fails an MOT at month 9 of the current certificate. The car is still roadworthy (as failing emissions doesn't make it unroadworthy) and still has the original MOT with 3m left on it. No offences. (The buggered emissions will need to be mended before the next MOT test of course, else you'll default to the offence of not having a valid MOT certificate when the old one expires and you're not able to obtain the new one.)
Not Roadworthy =/=> Failing MOT
Example 4: There are certain items that will make a car unroadworthy which are not part of the MOT test. For example windows forwards of the B pillar which let through less than 70% of visible light. Tints are (or certainly didn't used to be) and MOT testable item, but they would make the car illegal to use on the road.
So my point is that there are several circumstances which mean that holding an MOT is not the same as having a road worthy car, and vice versa.
(PS "=/=>" means "does not imply")
For example: A car can be in 100% perfect condition, but the MOT has expired. Car is still roadworthy, the offence is not having a valid MOT certificate.
Not Roadworthy =/=> No MOT
Example 2: A car can have a bald tyre, broken wipers, light bulbs out etc, but the MOT is still in date. The car is not roadworthy, the offence is having a bald tyre etc.
Failing MOT =/=> Not Roadworthy
Example 3: (I think this is right) A car can have bad emissions readings, and fails an MOT at month 9 of the current certificate. The car is still roadworthy (as failing emissions doesn't make it unroadworthy) and still has the original MOT with 3m left on it. No offences. (The buggered emissions will need to be mended before the next MOT test of course, else you'll default to the offence of not having a valid MOT certificate when the old one expires and you're not able to obtain the new one.)
Not Roadworthy =/=> Failing MOT
Example 4: There are certain items that will make a car unroadworthy which are not part of the MOT test. For example windows forwards of the B pillar which let through less than 70% of visible light. Tints are (or certainly didn't used to be) and MOT testable item, but they would make the car illegal to use on the road.
So my point is that there are several circumstances which mean that holding an MOT is not the same as having a road worthy car, and vice versa.
(PS "=/=>" means "does not imply")
kambites said:
John D. said:
kambites said:
I think it will still have a valid MoT if it fails a new one, but driving a car that you know to not be road-worthy is illegal.
How does that work? Its just failed the test. How can it have a valid MOT? Is it not all computerised anyway? Once the car is tested again it will show up as MOT failed and not having passed a re-test surely.
The "no MOT certificate" offence is committed if you are driving a car which has not passed an MOT within the previous 12 months. Subsequent fails are irrelevant.
The offence of driving a car which is "not roadworthy" can be committed at any time and irrespective of the driver's actual knowledge. Yes, you could get nicked on the way home from the MOT station clutching your pass certificate if your car isn't in good order.
The offence of driving a car which is "not roadworthy" can be committed at any time and irrespective of the driver's actual knowledge. Yes, you could get nicked on the way home from the MOT station clutching your pass certificate if your car isn't in good order.
The new failure or advisories supersede whatever is already in the VOSA system.
So whilst after a failed test you are still in possession of a certificate dated into the future, it is obsolete if the car were picked up on ANPR, Highways Agency or Traffic Police were to check it and it would be extremely disingenuous to pass off the car to a prospective buyer as having a current valid MoT.
Most MoT station will tend to also offer a "pre-MoT" check though. Basically the same test to the same criteria, but not "live" on the VOSA system, so a car that would otherwise be failed or given a list of advisories could be prepared for the real test without invalidating the current certificate. The list of fail/advisories can then be given verbally, you carry them out, represent the vehicle and pass with a clean bill of health.
Most garages will offer a reduced rate for the test and retest if done within 7 days of each other - the general understanding being that they do the work.
So whilst after a failed test you are still in possession of a certificate dated into the future, it is obsolete if the car were picked up on ANPR, Highways Agency or Traffic Police were to check it and it would be extremely disingenuous to pass off the car to a prospective buyer as having a current valid MoT.
Most MoT station will tend to also offer a "pre-MoT" check though. Basically the same test to the same criteria, but not "live" on the VOSA system, so a car that would otherwise be failed or given a list of advisories could be prepared for the real test without invalidating the current certificate. The list of fail/advisories can then be given verbally, you carry them out, represent the vehicle and pass with a clean bill of health.
Most garages will offer a reduced rate for the test and retest if done within 7 days of each other - the general understanding being that they do the work.
John D. said:
Its a test though. It presumes the car stays road worthy until the next year. If the car is then tested again before the year is up and fails, how can that previous certificate remain valid?
I don't really understand your point I'm afraid. I don't see what the new test has got to do with the validity of the old certificate. As far as I know, if you take a car in for an MoT and it fails, the DVLA aren't even informed? Ozzie Osmond said:
The offence of driving a car which is "not roadworthy" can be committed at any time and irrespective of the driver's actual knowledge. Yes, you could get nicked on the way home from the MOT station clutching your pass certificate if your car isn't in good order.
Yes, like in my tints example.The MOT does not prove that the car is roadworthy and certainly doesn't mean that it will remain roadworthy for the duration of the certificate.
All that it proves is that the testable items met the minimum requirementb at the time of test.
A valid certificate is valid until it expires, if a fail is recorded during this validity, it has no effect on the expiry date on the certificate.
All that it proves is that the testable items met the minimum requirementb at the time of test.
A valid certificate is valid until it expires, if a fail is recorded during this validity, it has no effect on the expiry date on the certificate.
Ozzie Osmond said:
The "no MOT certificate" offence is committed if you are driving a car which has not passed an MOT within the previous 12 months.
This is what the law says. Pure and simple. A subsequent fail does not invalidate a current certificate.The "no MOT certificate" offence is relatively minor and carries a modest penalty. (Fine up to £1,000)
Driving an unroadworthy car is much more serious carrying obligatory points, a bigger fine and possible disqualification for repeat offenders.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff